PepperdotNet
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Arguing about this subject is helping get Dr. Paul elected... how exactly?
*sarcasm* Yes, that's right, I'm single issue. */end sarcasm* I vote for Ron Paul for 4 main reasons (Abortion, Our Basic Rights, Restoring our Republic, and Sound Money) and about 25 minor reasons.
So please ask me what my issue/issues are before you say something stupid.
You've already done a fine job pushing people away from the Republican party.
I am happy to push as many as possible away from either pea in the same socialist pod. Democrat or Republican. The two parties ARE the problem, so I take your statement here as a badge of honor!
josephadel_3
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Well said, jmarinara. Thank you. Although I disagree with you about evolution, it is irrelevant to this discussion, like you said.
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Now, I know you're a nutjob. What 35 reported? What a crock of shit!!
To clarify, the 35 number was an average and the highest in our nations history before Roe v. Wade. It was taken mostly from the number of convictions for illegal abortions with a modifier thrown in for those not caught in their crimes.
Now I admit it could be wrong because modifiers can always be wrong in statistics. However, I would bet my life that it doesn't even approach the 4,000 per day we have now.
Based on all of your posts in this thread, it is obvious that this is your make or break issue. The earlier comment stands....if you're not a Republican, you're probably from the CP...you should go back.
Yeah, convicted.
Truth is you have no idea how many were being performed before Roe v Wade. Nevermind that a large part of the population could very easily head over to Canada and get one legally.Actually, I'm pro-life. In fact, there was a time where I might have taken your extreme views. I voted to outlaw abortion in my state should Roe v Wade be overturned. I just don't subscribe to your extremism. As I encounter people like yourself, I find your remedies to the problem imperfect and sickening. You offer no solution...you just judge and run around condemning people. Take the plank from your own eye asshole.
First of all, if you are going to paraphrase scripture, watch your language.
Here's my solution. Protect life, at all times at all costs. Period. Why? Because it is the very purpose of government to protect the life liberty and property of the innocent. It's why they exist. And when they can't do their job, or refuse to do their job, it is shameful.
As for those who have illegitimate children, my solution is to teach them that their purpose in life is to honor Jesus Christ and enjoy Him forever. They should be cared for, and their children should be cared for. Part of that care is help them to understand their sins, and to know the awesome Saviour who died to take it away. If they can or want to care for their children, then let them. If not, find the child a loving family who can care for him/her.
For those that decide to murder their children. They should be jailed after treatment and recovery and be punished according to the laws of the people.
For those that have been raped or abused and are forced to carry a child against their will, they should be given extra special care and understanding and never forced to care for a child they never wanted. The birth and pregnancy should be made as easy as possible and the child should be given to another family that will care for it unless the mother wants it.
I have my doubts you are pro-life. If you can somehow find a way to justify the murder of the innocent, you may think you are pro-life, but you are not.
Based on all of your posts in this thread, it is obvious that this is your make or break issue. The earlier comment stands....if you're not a Republican, you're probably from the CP...you should go back.
No it's more like a life or death issue. I love children and care about the others especially when they are being killed. I feel government has specific tasks and protecting life is one of them. When government fails to do it's job, be it not protect life, or not serve the people, that is indeed a make or break issue for me.
I used to be in the CP, and in the GOP. I have no intention of going back to either. The CP is weak and to interested in ridiculous issues. The GOP is just plain evil, Dr. Paul being the glaring exception.
Yeah, convicted.
Yes, I admitted that I had no real idea, but I still would bet my life that it isn't even CLOSE to the 4,000 per day we have now.
And yes, the Canada thing is a good point. It is truly sad that Canada is willing to kill children, but we aren't the policeman of the world and have no right to tell Canada what to do, tragic though it may be. Although changing customs laws might be in order.
BTW, you roll your eyes a lot.
daniroyer
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- Nov 30, 2007
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- 267
The problem is arguing when life starts is if you take it back to conception, it's very easy to take it back to birth control being abortion because it prevents conception. It's a very slipery slope.
The other way, stating that life legally begins at viability, is much harder to slide to "life begins at birth".
Yes, illegal abortion rates may have been low before it was legalized, but I can assure it the rate of illegal abortions will be MUCH higher because it has been already legal. Too many people think it's a right. Much like people who use illegal drugs. Hell, open your history books to the Prohibition era.
Making it illegal won't stop it, it will only make each procedure much more dangerous. Imagine not only just women maimed by illegal abortion procedures, but what if the abortion doesn't work and we end up with a large number of babies born with defects from an attempted back-alley abortion? At least now we have a level of control over the saftey.
We all agree abortion is bad. We all agree it's used far too often. We all want to get the number of abortions down to almost nothing.
You can't just make it illegal and move on without fixing the issues that cause us to be in this situation. Just like Ron Paul will keep Social Security for my parents' genration, he will allow my gneration to opt out. To change the way we will live. The same goes for abortion. Keep it legal under the most basic circumstances while educating us to "opt-out".
We need to instill a sense of self responsibility. If I don't keep up with my depo shots, it's my own fault. If my husband continues to have sex with me without checking if I'm up-to-date on my depo shots, it's his fault. We have the responsibility to make sure our sons know enough to be responsible for themselves and have the knowledge to do so.
We also need to make basic sex ed avaliable to people. The idea of not having sex until marriage is the safest way, I agree. But not everyone will have the will to seek out further knowledge. Did my drivers ed teacher telling me to wear my seatbelt cause me to drive recklessly? No. Will my sex ed teacher telling me to wear a condom cause me to have sex recklessly? No.
Right now, my 2 year old knows that women can choose not to have babies. He doesn't know where babies come from other than "from mommy". He knows that I get a shot and a yellow card like he gets when he gets vaccinations. It keeps me from having babies just like his shots keep him from getting sick. When it matters in 14+ years or so, he'll at least know that women can do something to prevent preganancy. I'm hoping by then, there will be a male birth control so he can have more options.
We also need to make it easier for couples to adopt. Many of the same people who are yelling that abortion should be illegal are also the same people who won't allow gay couples to adopt. Opening up the pool of elegible parents will certainly cause a drop. Also, tend to steer towards IVF instead of adoption. Again, this is another situation where a mindset needs to be changed.
The final part of the "stop abortion equation" is the economy. Ignoring my health trouble, the way the economy is going right now, I don't want anymore kids. I can't even adopt because I'm unsure of what our financial situation will be. If we stablize the economy and make it stronger, many more women who would have an abortion in our current situation will feel much more comfortable having the child and raising it. Not to mention people would feel financially secure in adopting.
Besides doing the things I mentioned above, we can all put some of our efforts in supporting charities that help make it possible for these women to raise their children and that help find homes for the children that can't be raised by their biological parents. This one thing will tie in with all the things I've already mentioned. Many of these charities provide women with knowledge, emotional support, financial assistance (free stuff), medical assistance, and even legitimate adoption assistance.
I'm adopted and I currently have two small boys. I was advised to have an abortion with my second son for medical reasons and rejected the advice (thankfully to a good result). I worked for many years as a GED and vocational tutor and come in contact with many men and women in bad situations. I've been there, I've helped others through it. This problem is too hard to fix by simply just changing the law. You need to change the way we as a country think.
(Sorry for the long post. I feel so strong on this issue.)
The other way, stating that life legally begins at viability, is much harder to slide to "life begins at birth".
Yes, illegal abortion rates may have been low before it was legalized, but I can assure it the rate of illegal abortions will be MUCH higher because it has been already legal. Too many people think it's a right. Much like people who use illegal drugs. Hell, open your history books to the Prohibition era.
Making it illegal won't stop it, it will only make each procedure much more dangerous. Imagine not only just women maimed by illegal abortion procedures, but what if the abortion doesn't work and we end up with a large number of babies born with defects from an attempted back-alley abortion? At least now we have a level of control over the saftey.
We all agree abortion is bad. We all agree it's used far too often. We all want to get the number of abortions down to almost nothing.
You can't just make it illegal and move on without fixing the issues that cause us to be in this situation. Just like Ron Paul will keep Social Security for my parents' genration, he will allow my gneration to opt out. To change the way we will live. The same goes for abortion. Keep it legal under the most basic circumstances while educating us to "opt-out".
We need to instill a sense of self responsibility. If I don't keep up with my depo shots, it's my own fault. If my husband continues to have sex with me without checking if I'm up-to-date on my depo shots, it's his fault. We have the responsibility to make sure our sons know enough to be responsible for themselves and have the knowledge to do so.
We also need to make basic sex ed avaliable to people. The idea of not having sex until marriage is the safest way, I agree. But not everyone will have the will to seek out further knowledge. Did my drivers ed teacher telling me to wear my seatbelt cause me to drive recklessly? No. Will my sex ed teacher telling me to wear a condom cause me to have sex recklessly? No.
Right now, my 2 year old knows that women can choose not to have babies. He doesn't know where babies come from other than "from mommy". He knows that I get a shot and a yellow card like he gets when he gets vaccinations. It keeps me from having babies just like his shots keep him from getting sick. When it matters in 14+ years or so, he'll at least know that women can do something to prevent preganancy. I'm hoping by then, there will be a male birth control so he can have more options.
We also need to make it easier for couples to adopt. Many of the same people who are yelling that abortion should be illegal are also the same people who won't allow gay couples to adopt. Opening up the pool of elegible parents will certainly cause a drop. Also, tend to steer towards IVF instead of adoption. Again, this is another situation where a mindset needs to be changed.
The final part of the "stop abortion equation" is the economy. Ignoring my health trouble, the way the economy is going right now, I don't want anymore kids. I can't even adopt because I'm unsure of what our financial situation will be. If we stablize the economy and make it stronger, many more women who would have an abortion in our current situation will feel much more comfortable having the child and raising it. Not to mention people would feel financially secure in adopting.
Besides doing the things I mentioned above, we can all put some of our efforts in supporting charities that help make it possible for these women to raise their children and that help find homes for the children that can't be raised by their biological parents. This one thing will tie in with all the things I've already mentioned. Many of these charities provide women with knowledge, emotional support, financial assistance (free stuff), medical assistance, and even legitimate adoption assistance.
I'm adopted and I currently have two small boys. I was advised to have an abortion with my second son for medical reasons and rejected the advice (thankfully to a good result). I worked for many years as a GED and vocational tutor and come in contact with many men and women in bad situations. I've been there, I've helped others through it. This problem is too hard to fix by simply just changing the law. You need to change the way we as a country think.
(Sorry for the long post. I feel so strong on this issue.)
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Have all the doubts you want. As much as you try to be, you're not God. I know where I stand on the issue.
Your "solution" doesn't meet my standards. You're trying to impose a moral standard that a very large percentage of women will never accept under any circumstances....and short of draconian involvement in the lives of fertile women, there is little chance government could ever enforce effectively. Moreover, I definitely don't think government should be conducting religious training in the manner you're suggesting...you're really out there on that one. Whose concept of God are we going to teach? Yours of course.
WilliamC
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- Nov 27, 2007
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- 6,682
A better question for the religious folks is why does "god" kill so many of the unborn?
You do know that up to 1/3rd of all pregnancies end in natural miscarriage don't you?
See http://www.hopexchange.com/Statistics.htm for evidence.
Is this because god hates the unborn or because humans are simply imperfectly evolved biological organisms subject to the same selective pressures as all self-replicating systems?
You do know that up to 1/3rd of all pregnancies end in natural miscarriage don't you?
See http://www.hopexchange.com/Statistics.htm for evidence.
Is this because god hates the unborn or because humans are simply imperfectly evolved biological organisms subject to the same selective pressures as all self-replicating systems?
Kade
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- Sep 11, 2007
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- 5,953
You know, I can't just let this go...
This poll was intellectually dishonest. (I'm not responding to it) The concept of "pro-abortion" is misleading and unfair. The biggest misconception of people who want the government to stay out of pregnancy is that we don't care... It infuriates me that the debate is always focused on the moral high ground of pro-lifers, often times the same people who support war and the death penalty.
This is solely an issue of privacy, reproductive freedom, separation of church and state, and women's rights. Even if I did feel that a fetus was a human deserving of rights, I believe strongly the rights of a mother's value of life and experience, and the desire for non-government intervention, that I STILL would side with freedom of choice.
The lawful intervention is a slippery slope. It is that which we fear the greatest, the absolute uneasiness of allowing one block of the voting electorate to decide decisions for another block based solely on their religious piety. No thank you.
This poll was intellectually dishonest. (I'm not responding to it) The concept of "pro-abortion" is misleading and unfair. The biggest misconception of people who want the government to stay out of pregnancy is that we don't care... It infuriates me that the debate is always focused on the moral high ground of pro-lifers, often times the same people who support war and the death penalty.
This is solely an issue of privacy, reproductive freedom, separation of church and state, and women's rights. Even if I did feel that a fetus was a human deserving of rights, I believe strongly the rights of a mother's value of life and experience, and the desire for non-government intervention, that I STILL would side with freedom of choice.
The lawful intervention is a slippery slope. It is that which we fear the greatest, the absolute uneasiness of allowing one block of the voting electorate to decide decisions for another block based solely on their religious piety. No thank you.
Thrashertm
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- Nov 30, 2007
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For me it comes down to who has rights are supreme - the rights of the mother or that of the unborn baby/fetus. When determining that, it also comes down to your definition of whether or not a fetus is a human life.
I tend to not think so. Personally I think that a fetus is just an empty shell, and that a child's mind and personality (others might think of a soul), are formed as a child grows up and gains experience.
I think that we need to have total control of our bodies as individuals - the state has no business telling us what we can or cannot do to ourselves. Accordingly, women can choose to do as they like when it comes to their wombs.
I tend to not think so. Personally I think that a fetus is just an empty shell, and that a child's mind and personality (others might think of a soul), are formed as a child grows up and gains experience.
I think that we need to have total control of our bodies as individuals - the state has no business telling us what we can or cannot do to ourselves. Accordingly, women can choose to do as they like when it comes to their wombs.
stevedasbach
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- Jun 23, 2007
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Didn't vote -- choices are inadequate.
Abortion is a low priority issue with me. We have bigger fish to fry folks.
Check out this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ8uUOiXcCo&feature=related
Check out this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ8uUOiXcCo&feature=related
Kade
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I agree 100%. Because such a large percentage of us believe as you do, that a fetus is an empty shell, without a "soul" or personality, responsibility, a mind, a functioning nervous system, and no life experience; the right to a planned pregnancy MUST be protected. That half of the population may disagree is not reason to allow for out of control government legislation. A mother's right is supreme. Dissenting opinions are welcome, but wholly inadequate.
Same.
Madcat455
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- Oct 27, 2007
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Personally.... I'm Pro-Life.
With exceptions though....
I do think that abortions should be allowed in cases of Rape and Incest... of course, they'd have to have a police report to justify it.
that may actually help to get more rapes reported as well.
I also think it should be a state issue
With exceptions though....
I do think that abortions should be allowed in cases of Rape and Incest... of course, they'd have to have a police report to justify it.
that may actually help to get more rapes reported as well.
I also think it should be a state issue
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