Are you for open borders?

[revolutionisnow]

No, they want a better life. If you don't want them on your property, you have every right to keep them off. Working and living isn't immoral, using guns to promote your agenda is.

I guess "morally" you have no real right to tell someone they can't drive 75mph through residential neighborhoods in their van with a meth lab in the back giving out free samples either, since they are not on your property.

Can you answer my question, yes or no?

I guess morally you have no right to tell someone what they take into their body(meth), and have no right to stop them from committing a victimless crime(speeding), and no right to tell people not to give out free samples(free market contract).

Some of us prefer civilization to madcap.

 

[Met Income]

Can you answer my question, yes or no?

I guess morally you have no right to tell someone what they take into their body(meth), and have no right to stop them from committing a victimless crime(speeding), and no right to tell people not to give out free samples(free market contract).

Some of us prefer civilization to madcap.

Correct. Unless it's on your property. People will take care of their property better than the government will do to incentives. If I don't want to come in contact with excessive speeding, I won't go to places that allow it.

 

[The Patriot]

I am not violating anything. Unilateral contracts were created without my consent, therefore, they are illegitimate. I am not taking your property, the State is.

And yes, you are initiating violence against me, and that's always wrong. It's my property.

Yes you are, as I said before, you are facilitating fraud and theft, that is a crime, and you should be prosecuted accordingly.

 

[Met Income]

Yes you are, as I said before, you are facilitating fraud and theft, that is a crime, and you should be prosecuted accordingly.

I absolutely am not. I find the welfare state as reprehensible as you. I do not consent or particlate in it. You can say I have three heads, but it doesn't make it true.

Hiring someone and renting place out (or any other voluntary transaction) is not violating your property rights. Sticking a gun in my face is violating my property rights. It is immoral and contradictory. You have no jurisdiction on my property.

The State loves people like you. You focus your energy on people who have nothing to do with the theft and that takes away energy that should be directed at The State who steals from you.

 

[The Patriot]

I absolutely am not. I find the welfare state as reprehensible as you. I do not consent or particlate in it. You can say I have three heads, but it doesn't make it true.

Hiring someone and renting place out (or any other voluntary transaction) is not violating your property rights. Sticking a gun in my face is violating my property rights. It is immoral and contradictory. You have no jurisdiction on my property.

The State loves people like you. You focus your energy on people who have nothing to do with the theft and that takes away energy that should be directed at The State who steals from you.

Yes you do, you facilitate it by hiring illegals, you are just as complicit in the cycle as those illegals who participate in fraud to attain the stolen money and the state who steals the money in the first place.

 

[The Patriot]

The State loves people like you. You focus your energy on people who have nothing to do with the theft and that takes away energy that should be directed at The State who steals from you.

Hardly, I am for ending the welfare state and illegal immigration, you are facilitating it(if you are in fact hiring illegal immigrants.

 

[Keller1967]

Hardly, I am for ending the welfare state and illegal immigration, you are facilitating it(if you are in fact hiring illegal immigrants.

You facilitate the welfare state by simply paying taxes and respecting government laws.

Giving an illegal a job, and therefore a direct reason to not need welfare, does not facilitate it.

 

[MelissaWV]

I'll save us three more pages...

"No, you."

"No, YOU."

"NO! You!"

"NO! YOU!"

Meant in good fun. I just think that some of you are not really going to convince others of you via repeating.

 

[Met Income]

Hardly, I am for ending the welfare state and illegal immigration, you are facilitating it(if you are in fact hiring illegal immigrants.

How? It's not my fault that the State taxes and funds welfare programs. It shouldn't happen. Employment is voluntary, theft is not.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Yes you do, you facilitate it by hiring illegals, you are just as complicit in the cycle as those illegals who participate in fraud to attain the stolen money and the state who steals the money in the first place.

Are you for private property?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

~chuckles~

I'll save us three more pages...

"No, you."

"No, YOU."

"NO! You!"

"NO! YOU!"

Meant in good fun. I just think that some of you are not really going to convince others of you via repeating.

 

[Keller1967]

I'll save us three more pages...

"No, you."

"No, YOU."

"NO! You!"

"NO! YOU!"

Meant in good fun. I just think that some of you are not really going to convince others of you via repeating.

I'm starting it notice you have a habit of going into discussions you seemingly have no interest in, and making a blanket statement of "you guys are wasting time/space etc. and should just stop". It seems like you have a desire to simply stifle discussion in general or maybe on certain issues, interesting.

 

[ARealConservative]

I'm amazed this thread survived the crushing blow I inflicted upon it at the beginning.

If I have an inalienable right to free movement and borders don't exist, then nothing stops my fist from occupying the space another persons head was previously at.

Without borders, you can't have property rights - including the right to have your body occupy a 1 foot by 1 foot parcel of space.

 

[Met Income]

I'm amazed this thread survived the crushing blow I inflicted upon it at the beginning.

Not really. You have the right to defend your borders - your face or your property. The government, as an illegitimate organization, does not.

 

[The Patriot]

Not really. You have the right to defend your borders - your face or your property. The government, as an illegitimate organization, does not.

Yes, we absolutely have a right to control our borders. Specifically since our tax money is being stolen to pay for services immigrants use. Since it is our money being stolen, we have a right to decide which foreigners get the privilege of using our money. You are acting as though public property and public services do not exist when they in fact do.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella18.html

 

[Met Income]

Yes, we absolutely have a right to control our borders. Specifically since our tax money is being stolen to pay for services immigrants use. Since it is our money being stolen, we have a right to decide which foreigners get the privilege of using our money. You are acting as though public property and public services do not exist when they in fact do.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/kinsella/kinsella18.html

There is no "our borders." There is your border and my border. Do what you want with yours and stay off of mine.

Public "services" are not a service. If I hack into your bank account and buy you a car, it's not a service; it's still theft.

The issue is not freedom to travel, it's the theft of the welfare state.

 

[The Patriot]

There is no "our borders." There is your border and my border. Do what you want with yours and stay off of mine.

Public "services" are not a service. If I hack into your bank account and buy you a car, it's not a service; it's still theft.

The issue is not freedom to travel, it's the theft of the welfare state.

No, there are national borders. there are nations and there are states.

You are merely changing words, you aren't disputing what I said. As long as they are using taxpayers money, my money, our money, we have a right to decide who gets to use that money and the services and facilities that come with it.

Yes, the issue is open borders, that is what this topic is about. They are crossing the border illegally to use services and facilities that are funded by my money

 

[Met Income]

No, there are national borders. there are nations and there are states.

You are merely changing words, you aren't disputing what I said. As long as they are using taxpayers money, my money, our money, we have a right to decide who gets to use that money and the services and facilities that come with it.

Yes, the issue is open borders, that is what this topic is about. They are crossing the border illegally to use services and facilities that are funded by my money

The government is immorally trespassing on my property by enforcing their arbitrary borders, therefore, their actions are illegitimate. You have no right to do this. You have a right to do it on your property, and nothing more.

Public property was acquired illegitimately, therefore, its ownership is illegitimate.

There are only nations and states because a violent monopoly with guns says so, not because they are right. I own myself, you do not own me. You only pretend to with guns. Every state-sponsored atrocity that has ever worked has used your philosophy has a moral basis for its actions.

 

[The Patriot]

The government is immorally trespassing on my property by enforcing their arbitrary borders, therefore, their actions are illegitimate. You have no right to do this. You have a right to do it on your property, and nothing more.

Public property was acquired illegitimately, therefore, its ownership is illegitimate.

There are only nations and states because a violent monopoly with guns says so, not because they are right. I own myself, you do not own me. You only pretend to with guns.

National Borders have nothing to do with your property rights, you have the right to own a property in another nation.

The people who pay for the public facilities and services own them, thus the taxpayer owns them. The taxpayers gets to decide who uses them through their elected representatives.

I agree that income taxation, property taxation, medicaid taxation etc are forms of theft. But your position is incoherent and inconsistent. On one hand, you say that the state stole our money, but you won't go as far as to say that money doesn't belong to us once it is used for government services and facilities, you are essentially saying it belongs to no one but the state. I am saying it belongs to the taxpayers who paid for it. so therefore, as long as these facilities exist we have the right to decide who can come in and use them.

I never claimed to own you, you are coming up with crazy accusations that make no sense to deflect from the real issue that illegal immigration fuels the welfare state and the further theft of the taxpayers money.

 

[Met Income]

National Borders have nothing to do with your property rights, you have the right to own a property in another nation.

No, I own my body and my property outright. Any infringement on these rights are due to "might makes right" ie someone else has more guns. That doesn't mean it's moral, it just means they have more guns.

The people who pay for the public facilities and services own them, thus the taxpayer owns them. The taxpayers gets to decide who uses them through their elected representatives.

I agree that income taxation, property taxation, medicaid taxation etc are forms of theft. But your position is incoherent and inconsistent. On one hand, you say that the state stole our money, but you won't go as far as to say that money doesn't belong to us once it is used for government services and facilities, you are essentially saying it belongs to no one but the state. I am saying it belongs to the taxpayers who paid for it. so therefore, as long as these facilities exist we have the right to decide who can come in and use them.

If the money belonged to me, the State wouldn't have it. You have a logical contradiction on your hands. The State steals my money and then decides what to do with it. All actions involved are clearly illegitimate.

I never claimed to own you, you are coming up with crazy accusations that make no sense to deflect from the real issue that illegal immigration fuels the welfare state and the further theft of the taxpayers money.

You don't have to claim it. Actions speak louder than words. You would use guns to infringe my property rights, which is not your right to do. Protect your property as much as you want. Focus on getting people to stop stealing your money and then you don't have a problem on your hands. Theft is the problem, not freedom to travel.

Every state-sponsored atrocity that has ever worked has used your philosophy has a moral basis for its actions.