Are you a Constitutionalist or an Anarchist?

What is your idiology?

  • I am a constitutionalist.

    Votes: 120 57.1%
  • I am an anarchist.

    Votes: 71 33.8%
  • Other - Please explain your position.

    Votes: 19 9.0%

  • Total voters
    210
This isn't really a fair criticism though, because defense technology would not necessarily rely on donations, and it would probably be funded by the people who you buy protection insurance from.

And who sells you 'protection insurance'? Sounds like a genuine mafia product to me...

More shades of Athens. First the mob rule, then the demand for 'tribute', then the slope gets even more slippery.
 
How does anarchy guarantee that those private individuals who buy heavy arms will not ever use them against others who cannot afford to purchase them on their own? What stops a Rothschild from killing a Rothbard in a pure anarchy?

The worst criticism that skeptics can make of anarchy is that eventually some members will form a new state. That may be true, but that means we are currently living in the worst-case scenario. It's like saying "I won't buy a car, because maybe someday it will break down and I will have to walk." Guess what, if you don't buy that car you are walking for sure.
 
Mini-Me,
It's very tempting to get hung up on roads and interstates when discussing this.
Please remember:

-Beginning in WWII a 15% tax was placed on passenger rail travel.
-That tax was not removed until the 1970s,
-which was the same time the Eisenhower interstate system was being implemented using tax dollars.
-Also, car travel is orders of magnitude less efficient than rail travel.
-Roads are generally subsidized by the entire society, but
-rails are privately owned, and the individual owners not only have to maintain them out of pocket, but pay taxes on them.
-EDIT: forgot to mention that ALL RAIL WAS NATIONALIZED IN THE 1930s, and never quite recovered.

So the clear conclusion is that in even a minarchist society, roads would simply not be the issue they are.

What would the road system look like if there was no government?
It would look suspiciously like a rail system. And we have historical proof that private rail systems work and work GREAT, if you just leave them the hell alone and refuse to subsidize inefficient competitors.

Also, sprawl, box stores, and deforestation wouldn't exist. There's a reason you can't walk to market anymore. If not for the direct involvement of government, you still would.
 
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-EDIT: forgot to mention that ALL RAIL WAS NATIONALIZED IN THE 1930s, and never quite recovered.

I think you've got your date wrong, or you're overstating the case rather drastically. The railroads were nationalized during the last years of WWI, and even though the government made a disaster of the effort the 'temporary wartime' nationalization didn't get undone until after Harding replaced Wilson in 1921.
 
And who sells you 'protection insurance'? Sounds like a genuine mafia product to me...

More shades of Athens. First the mob rule, then the demand for 'tribute', then the slope gets even more slippery.

I agree that my terminology is pretty suggestive, but who sells you protection insurance today? ;) The state does, without competition, and they take your tribute whether you like it or not. Ultimately, the state is just the "biggest mafia in town" once you take away the layers of glamor, and that doesn't even exclude a genuinely limited Constitutional republic (which, don't get me wrong, I would still be quite happy with). No matter what system you're living under, you should pretty much count on paying your protection money to the mafia. The difference with the kind of anarcho-capitalist society I'm considering is that, unlike today, the courts wouldn't actually allow any mafias to legally harm you if you chose not to subscribe. (Under a more gang-based system like the tuath system of Celtic Ireland, that wouldn't be the case, since unaffiliated people could potentially be considered unprotected outlaws...but that's precisely why I prefer a system based on a Constitutional common law. Honestly though, if you take a brief look at even Celtic history, it seems a whole lot less barbaric than just about everyone else's history, even though they essentially based their legal system on decentralized gangs for a thousand years.)

The key here is that the people's loyalty and reverence must remain with the common law of an anarcho-capitalist society, rather than any particular actors whose job it is to enforce that law. As long as the courts fear retribution from the fiercely independent people if they were to betray them and try to enslave them, and as long as any "cop companies" fear the same, there's no reason why different "cop companies" (insurance agencies) couldn't compete in the "protection" market. What's so bad about people choosing which "cop company" to subscribe to, which will patrol their neighborhoods, show up on call after a robbery, etc.? Unlike today's cops, they'd actually have a legal, contractual responsibility to help out their customers...whereas today's cops have no actual legal obligation to help anyone in trouble. Similarly, we have bounty hunters even today, so we're not complete strangers to the idea of private individuals arresting suspected criminals (especially if they're legally liable for any harm done, since they're not considered "special"), etc. Underneath the unfamiliar, murky waters of the word "anarchy," that's really all the difference boils down to regarding the "cops."

By the way, thanks for the railroad info guys...I sometimes forget to turn my creativity switch on and remember that a free society could potentially find better ways to handle logistics than we do today. I have to go for now, but I'll check this thread out later and see how it's going. :)
 
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I just can't get over the fact that most "anarchists" I've met in my life were idiots whom said the word "dude" a bit excessively and political attitude was "no rules dude! fuck government, yeah dude!".

If I didn't get that taste most of my high school years I'm sure I'd have a more pleasant view of anarchism.

Those are dumb teenagers that don't understand what anarchism really is. Anarchy is not about no rules. We believe rules are very important. It is about getting away from the idea of a government that maintains the monopoly ability of initiating violence.

Voluntaryists (I prefer this term because it doesn't have a bad conotation) are simply people who carry out the non-aggression principle to its logical conculsion. You cannot have a government without violating this principle because a government by its very nature uses initiatory force.
 
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Think it would be a great experiment to try out over some area [alongside a nearby minarchist Constitutional republic probably], but I still have the following hangup:

For all this to work, I can't get around the idea that private courts absolutely MUST agree upon some common law (and of course, it would have to be a very libertarian common law based on rights for this to be called anything close to "anarcho-capitalism" or "minarchism"). My thinking is that this law should be written down in stone in some unchanging territorial Constitution. Of course, this would create a monopoly of law over a given jurisdiction, and the law itself would essentially become "the government" over a certain area. The legitimacy of courts would be determined by peer acceptance and ultimately public acceptance of verdicts. Each private court would have every incentive to generally respect the verdicts of other courts with high public acceptance and reject the verdicts of other courts with low public acceptance...and ultimately, the people and their hired protection will have every incentive as well to respect/disrespect verdicts based on the same criteria. Rather than the state, the people's loyalty would be to the common law that the courts must follow, but they would still have reverence for the authority of that law. So, in a way, this is just a mini-minarchist government, minus the state, not full-blown anarcho-capitalism.

I'm running out of time here so did not read a whole lot of this thread but the sentence in bold struck me as odd...

In our current society peer relationships are generally destructive of independent thought and action, and even individual rights. Why would this be any different under another governmental system?
 
This poll should have three options. You can still be a republican without being a Constitutionalist. It's called anti-federalist.
 
I'm running out of time here so did not read a whole lot of this thread but the sentence in bold struck me as odd...

In our current society peer relationships are generally destructive of independent thought and action, and even individual rights. Why would this be any different under another governmental system?

Hrm...I didn't really consider that. Can you elaborate on the destructiveness of peer relationships in the adult world (no elaboration is really necessary when it comes to schoolkids ;)), particularly compared to the destructiveness of unequal heirarchical relationships? Keeping in mind that juries should decide pretty much everything of importance, part of the reason I'm not terribly concerned here is because any particular court would have a lot of incentive to follow the law faithfully: After all, every court would want customers to do business with it instead of competitors. Still, I could always be wrong. We all pretty much all know how Constitutional republics go: They start off small, and depending on how strong the Constitutional checks and balances are, they either resist growth or allow creeping growth until emerging into a full-blown leviathan state. In contrast, I look at anarcho-capitalism as more of an ambitious experiment with a lot of unknown variables. It's kind of the devil we don't know, since it hasn't been tried before in modern times as far as I know...although anarchy in Celtic Ireland was somewhat similar and supposedly worked very well, and there are other historical examples of anarchy without chaos too.

The "peer review" thing - which is little more than my best guess about the way things could be done or might work out naturally - is really just something that would come into play in the appeals process. If some one-sided rogue court kept butchering trials and getting overturned by other courts, fewer and fewer customers would trust it with their money and their fates. The public would start to consider it a kangaroo court, and it would get to the point where everyone just routinely ignored its decisions as if they never happened, including other courts. This kind of negative peer review would effectively strip a kangaroo court of any "moral authority" it ever had to compel people to follow its judgments. Sure, such a one-sided court would still have customers for a while - the ones who know they will probably win no matter what. :rolleyes: However, once a more respected court overturned that court's judgment on appeal, it would probably require the customer who won in that court (but lost the appeal) to reimburse their trial opponent for the costs of that wasted trial. Soon after, the kangaroo court would simply die out, because even the preordained winners would recognize the fruitlessness of choosing that court.

Ultimately, the real power would reside with the public (the "customers"). If things ever really got out of control and the courts all became corrupt and disrespected - and somehow no new trustworthy court entered the market that people actually trusted, respected, and flocked to (no matter how much some corrupt court tried to overturn its decisions) - then everyone involved in the corruption would likely have to fear for their heads. In a world where people did not cower before or worship an almighty state, I don't think the people would be terribly likely to respect/help enforce any corrupt court's decision to imprison the vigilante who decided to start "cleaning up house."

That's just my assessment though, and I definitely understand people's reluctance to even contemplate trying something so radically different. Some minarchists believe anarcho-capitalism couldn't ever work, and some anarcho-capitalists believe trying to keep government limited is unavoidably an exercise in futility...personally, I think both are probably viable options, if "done right."

Yah, but anti-federalist deserves its own option. I'm sure some people would have voted differently.
I think you're right, and I was actually pretty surprised when I saw it missing from the option list myself.
 
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Hrm...I didn't really consider that. Can you elaborate on the destructiveness of peer relationships in the adult world (no elaboration is really necessary when it comes to schoolkids ;)), particularly compared to the destructiveness of unequal heirarchical relationships? Keeping in mind that juries should decide pretty much everything of importance, part of the reason I'm not terribly concerned here is because any particular court would have a lot of incentive to follow the law faithfully: After all, every court would want customers to do business with it instead of competitors. Still, I could always be wrong. We all pretty much all know how Constitutional republics go: They start off small, and depending on how strong the Constitutional checks and balances are, they either resist growth or allow creeping growth until emerging into a full-blown leviathan state. In contrast, I look at anarcho-capitalism as more of an ambitious experiment with a lot of unknown variables. It's kind of the devil we don't know, since it hasn't been tried before in modern times as far as I know...although anarchy in Celtic Ireland was somewhat similar and supposedly worked very well, and there are other historical examples of anarchy without chaos too.

The "peer review" thing - which is little more than my best guess about the way things could be done or might work out naturally - is really just something that would come into play in the appeals process. If some one-sided rogue court kept butchering trials and getting overturned by other courts, fewer and fewer customers would trust it with their money and their fates. The public would start to consider it a kangaroo court, and it would get to the point where everyone just routinely ignored its decisions as if they never happened, including other courts. This kind of negative peer review would effectively strip a kangaroo court of any "moral authority" it ever had to compel people to follow its judgments. Sure, such a one-sided court would still have customers for a while - the ones who know they will probably win no matter what. :rolleyes: However, once a more respected court overturned that court's judgment on appeal, it would probably require the customer who won in that court (but lost the appeal) to reimburse their trial opponent for the costs of that wasted trial. Soon after, the kangaroo court would simply die out, because even the preordained winners would recognize the fruitlessness of choosing that court.

Ultimately, the real power would reside with the public (the "customers"). If things ever really got out of control and the courts all became corrupt and disrespected - and somehow no new trustworthy court entered the market that people actually trusted, respected, and flocked to (no matter how much some corrupt court tried to overturn its decisions) - then everyone involved in the corruption would likely have to fear for their heads. In a world where people did not cower before or worship an almighty state, I don't think the people would be terribly likely to respect/help enforce any corrupt court's decision to imprison the vigilante who decided to start "cleaning up house."

That's just my assessment though, and I definitely understand people's reluctance to even contemplate trying something so radically different. Some minarchists believe anarcho-capitalism couldn't ever work, and some anarcho-capitalists believe trying to keep government limited is unavoidably an exercise in futility...personally, I think both are probably viable options, if "done right."


I think you're right, and I was actually pretty surprised when I saw it missing from the option list myself.

I believe children who cultivate negative peer relationships pretty much turn into adults that have negative peer relationships. People in groups tend to conform to the dominant behavior in the group, the minority of people are leaders.

I just read the reply above and I'm sorry it seems like re-inventing the wheel. Substitute voters for consumers, assume the voters are actually wielding Constitutional power, and isn't it essentially the same thing?

I really believe the system we have is just fine if enough people would take the personal responsibility to make it work, that is the real failure, not the structure of the system.

Concerning peer relationships and conformity - one of my biggest gripes against the churches in this country is the emphasis on legalism, not sinning, and group conformity. They are creating sheep for the "new world order", not Spiritual enlightenment. People have to be permitted to screw up enough to learn on their own, if they are taught conformity and to avoid taking chances or stepping out of line (as most churches teach) they don't grow Spiritually.
 
I didn't read this whole thread, I hope I can be forgiven for that.

I put down "other", as I am a voluntaryist. I believe it is always wrong to use aggressive (not defensive) violence.

The word anarchist, to me, implies a lack of rules. I very strongly believe in rules. I believe a person has the right to set the rules for use of his/her property. I believe the innocent should be defended, I just don't believe it needs to be done by a monopoly which itself agresses against innocent people. I also believe in justice -- meaning that those who do use aggressive violence should be made to compensate their victims.
 
I would have voted "Minarchist" or "Constitutionalist" only a year or even six months ago, but in hindsight, I've been on a journey from conservative statist to anarcho-capitalist for 15 years. If you truly believe in "individual sovereignty", there's nowhere else to go.

+1
 
If the minarchists are giving up on the Ron Paul Revolution and the anarcho-capitalists are staying, what does that say?

I think we are all still here. The more we learn the more we move toward anarcho-capitalism. I view constitutionalists as people, just like I was a few months ago, that do not fully understand the nature of property rights.

That is why I strongly recommend Butler Shaffer's new book Boundaries of Order
 
Poll needs more options. It appears that these days there needs to be a option for monarchist and world police-ist.
 
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