I've done my own research with this, and my friend's lawyer. In most cases people are held for trial, than deported. Regardless, that still CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU SAID. So what is it called when we don't punish the illegals for the crime, but instead make them pay a fine and stay anyways? AMNESTY. You just read the law.
Any old McCain supporters here?
- Thread starter Warrior_of_Freedom
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I've done my own research with this, and my friend's lawyer. In most cases people are held for trial, than deported. Regardless, that still CONTRADICTS WHAT YOU SAID. So what is it called when we don't punish the illegals for the crime, but instead make them pay a fine and stay anyways? AMNESTY. You just read the law.
Mental Dribble
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I NEVER SAID if it was FAIR or ADEQUATE punishment.
Again, I have no strong feelings on this topic.
But his plan has a form of punishment. And if there is any punishment it CAN NOT BE CALLED AMNESTY! Just because YOU don't think the punishment is harsh enough does NOT make it Amnesty. When did you get to define words? USE THE FREAKING TERM CORRECTLY!
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YOU ARE A TROLL PERIOD END OF DISCUSSION
Again, you're not getting it. THEY ARE AVOIDING THE CURRENT PUNISHMENT, WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS NOT A PUNISHMENT. They may consider it a punishment, but I assure you that these are standard things required for LEGAL IMMIGRATION.
The reason why you your interpretation is wrong is, again, because the "punishment" is simply what LEGAL immigrants ALREADY go through. I love how you ask me to use words correctly, you call this is a punishment? It only seems like that because we don't currently USE OUR OWN LAWS.
Mental Dribble
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legal immigrants do no pay 3,500-4,000 every 3 years on top of the normal lawyer fees, filling fees, and all other costs associated with processing through the system legally and correctly.
those on a "Z" visa would still have to follow the normal course for citizenship while ALSO fulfilling the Z visa requirements.
Again. YOU do not think the punishment is harsh enough. I probably don't either, but that doesn;t mean we get to DECIDE what the word Amnesty means.
Amnesty is what Ronald Regan gave when he allowed all illegal immigrants the ability to stay and become citizens with NO fees, NO punishment and practically NO requirements.
My issue here is totally with the use of the word Amnesty. McCain's competitors throw it out there to damage him, because they know the word makes people cringe. Your buying into the political game by using the word too.
mysticgeek
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Nope ... never really cared for the guy.... I mean ... I respect he is a POW and such ... but as a politician ... nah
Alas it's amnesty, directly or indirectly. (although it could depend on how long it would require to apply for citizenship, which I assume would be BEFORE their 2nd 4000 payment). Assuming we buy the logic in parantheses, they are paying about the same if not maybe less (not counting legal fees) than a LEGAL immigrant.
The naturalisation application has a filing fee of $675 in 2008. At that point, when you file this application, you already have to be a greencard holder. Before you get that little piece of plastic you have probably already spent about $1500 - $2000.
I understand the point you're attempting to make. I'm saying it's AMNESTY because they are skipping ahead of the line, and not getting punished. As I highlighted above, the "punishment" is standard operating procedure.
Source(s):
http://www.uscis.gov/greencard
http://www.uscis.gov/citizenship
Gimme Some Truth
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..but you get to stay in the country dont you?
Mental Dribble
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Their not actually getting in front of the line though... they would still need to get their green card and do everything involved with that process... The Z visa basically just gives them a legal status to be here while waiting for the real naturalization process to begin.
Whatever happens, we need to bring these people out of the shadows because by keeping them there we just continue to allow businesses to take advantage of their cheap labor which hurts American workers.
Mental Dribble
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Yes, but thats not the definition of the word AMNESTY.
Again, it may not be harsh enough for YOU. But thats not Amnesty.
Revolution9
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So..it is AMNESTY with a fine.. big effing deal..same goddamned problem. They are here illegally and killing our services and wages. A few fat cats make out, local contractors get a new four wheel pickup from the wages savings and all their payout money leaves the community making the community poorer. The contractor is killing his future business by using non local scab labor.
Randy
nosebruise
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im not sure why you guys are even arguing... its completely semantic... and you're arguing the definition of the word, which can, as we have seen here, be interpreted differently depending on what the person views as "punishment" (more semantics).
personally, i'd hardly call having to go through anything approximating the regular process a "punishment" my any means.
and anything which would be easier than the regular process not a punishment, but a reward.
regardless of if it was still "worse than scotch free".
regardless... whether it's technically "amnesty" all you're doing is deciding whether to call it donkey or an ass.
its still the same animal in the end.
personally, i'd hardly call having to go through anything approximating the regular process a "punishment" my any means.
and anything which would be easier than the regular process not a punishment, but a reward.
regardless of if it was still "worse than scotch free".
regardless... whether it's technically "amnesty" all you're doing is deciding whether to call it donkey or an ass.
its still the same animal in the end.
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Thrashertm
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I supported McCain back in 2000. However, I've been disappointed in him since he caved and sold out. Cozying up to Bush, Falwell, etc. He's now just another pandering shill.
werdd
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Dude hes a co-sponsor of the dream act, he wants amnesty.
Kinda skipped the last few pages of yelling but here is my .02.
12 million illegals. Everyone agree to kick the 2 million in jail out.
The remaining 10 million is the difference.
McCain's stance is to deal with them as humanly as possible but they will WAIT AT THE BACK OF THE LINE.
When asked if this meant they will be kicked out he responds, we must treat them humanly.
The follow up question is so they won't wait at the end of the line?
McCain's ace is always "I'm not going to deport the mom of a solider serving in Iraq"
( no better than Mr. 9/11 by the way ) Anyways clearly McCain supports Amnesty to some degree. Maybe not just giving citizenship but it will be given.
The - He is not for Amnesty- point it - The 10 million won't just be given citizenship but will have to pay some type of fine to act as the punishment for breaking the law.
The point in the -he is for amnesty argument- is this: The 10 million whether or not they are fined or not are being REWARDED for breaking the law when compared to the millions who have attempted to follow the law and wait in line.
P.S. how hard would it be to make a law that does this: "If your immediate family members is serving in the Unites States armed forces you will be allowed temporary citizenship and a priority to become a permanent citizen"
Yep even my "solution" is a form of Amnesty but it actually helps both parties. If ton's of illegals want to join the Marines and fight in Iraq for America I'm fine with letting their mom, dad, and sister become the first to be U.S. citizens. McCain knows this and uses it as a tool to manipulate people into thinking it's ok to allow 10 million to stay when in fact there is a VERY small number of situations he uses to accomplish this manipulation.
12 million illegals. Everyone agree to kick the 2 million in jail out.
The remaining 10 million is the difference.
McCain's stance is to deal with them as humanly as possible but they will WAIT AT THE BACK OF THE LINE.
When asked if this meant they will be kicked out he responds, we must treat them humanly.
The follow up question is so they won't wait at the end of the line?
McCain's ace is always "I'm not going to deport the mom of a solider serving in Iraq"
( no better than Mr. 9/11 by the way ) Anyways clearly McCain supports Amnesty to some degree. Maybe not just giving citizenship but it will be given.
The - He is not for Amnesty- point it - The 10 million won't just be given citizenship but will have to pay some type of fine to act as the punishment for breaking the law.
The point in the -he is for amnesty argument- is this: The 10 million whether or not they are fined or not are being REWARDED for breaking the law when compared to the millions who have attempted to follow the law and wait in line.
P.S. how hard would it be to make a law that does this: "If your immediate family members is serving in the Unites States armed forces you will be allowed temporary citizenship and a priority to become a permanent citizen"
Yep even my "solution" is a form of Amnesty but it actually helps both parties. If ton's of illegals want to join the Marines and fight in Iraq for America I'm fine with letting their mom, dad, and sister become the first to be U.S. citizens. McCain knows this and uses it as a tool to manipulate people into thinking it's ok to allow 10 million to stay when in fact there is a VERY small number of situations he uses to accomplish this manipulation.
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