Age of Consent, Libertarians, and RP Forums - some clarification please

[dannno]

Let me ask, if Danno wants to beat his kid is that none of my business as well?

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of peaceful parenting.

 

[HVACTech]

So basically, you are upset that a bunch of anarchists don't want a government defining the boundaries of social interactions?

"consent" is in the eye of the beerholder?

and here, I thought the anarchists whole gig was "consent"
I thank you for clearing that up!

 

[hankrichter12]

The spot where this fails is the assumption that every 18 year old is equally mature, and that this maturity is automatically gained at midnight on their 18th birthday. That is what anyone supporting an age of consent is advocating.

If someone is of diminished mental capacity, it won't matter if they are 30. There's a higher chance that a sexual encounter involved coercion. If someone is very mature, they might just be okay at age 14 or 15 losing their virginity --- even to someone slightly older (that doesn't hold some coercive power over them, of course). Moreover, there isn't automatically harm involved in that encounter.

This is the same standpoint people take with the DUI "legal limit" as well, etc..

I understand your "if it's my daughter!" argument. Why do you need the state to tell you when it's okay? Hell, what father automatically goes "well she's 18 now... time to not be bothered by the fact that guy she's dating is fully able to screw her silly"? I'm well past the legal age but I'm 100% certain mom and dad don't want to know what I've done in that sense. What age did you and your friends lose your virginity (rhetorical question but just think about it)? How old were the girls you did it with?

So the focus here should be on the crime, not drawing a hard and fast line in the sand. There are people at AOC -1 that are mature enough to consent. There are people at AOC +1 that are not. If you can agree with that, then you can see how absolutely stupid it is to pick an age and set it as a universal limit punishable by time in jail and sex offender registry.

I just addressed that, there is no solid answer, but some kind of age must be set, I mean, I have said clearly I am not suggesting I have the perfect age that perfectly suits every situation, only that life isn't always fair, the alternative is.....what? People just make it up as they go along? How do your sort that out?

To be clear, I'm a strong proponent of peaceful parenting.

Good to know, I wasn't trying to imply anything, just making a point.

 

[TheTexan]

the alternative is.....what? People just make it up as they go along?

The horror!

Unfathomable!

 

[Danke]

When I travel I always use this site:

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

 

[Christian Liberty]

Its funny how radically ideas on this used to differ. It used to be that people would get married as early as reasonably possible....

 

[HVACTech]

I would agreed with all you said except that. Let me ask, if Danno wants to beat his kid is that none of my business as well?

Alright, I know, that is extreme, OK then, that is my point, where does that line get drawn?

I would think you'd agree that Danno hitting his kid is a situation where a 3rd party intervention is warranted right? So, you would acknowledge there are some situations where it is "my business" with "my" meaning other people in society when it comes to children who are not able to defend themselves.

So the issue becomes where is that line? I did not say 18 because I think it is some Holy number, I just say you have to set some number, and I don't think it would be asking much of a 25yr old to wait 2yrs if he really loves her, it might be some BS in a few cases, but like I say, some line has to be drawn somewhere, if you have something other than 18, fine, make your case, but again this just seems to be a dodge because no one wants to come out and set a number since they know there will be others who will disagree, and there is the dilemma, which brings us back to what started this whole thing.

your query sir. is beyond the purview of the "state"
and is therefore a "civil" matter.

this explains why our founders separated the two.

 

[TheTexan]

When I travel I always use this site:

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

I think they make a travel card that fits in your wallet.

 

[HVACTech]

The horror!

Unfathomable!

I am looking for signs of intelligence on RPF's sir.
and you are are NOT helping.

 

[hankrichter12]

your query sir. is beyond the purview of the "state"
and is therefore a "civil" matter.

this explains why our founders separated the two.

So, I guess we go back to the obvious question: Are libertarians wanting to change age of consent laws - yes or no? Those FSP people shouted me down for saying that is what they advocate,..... yet it seems like maybe, that is what they advocate.

 

[presence]

You are passing the buck, that is vague. At what point can my son or daughter say "I can do what I want"? What recourse do I have prior to that if I don't agree with the relationship?

standard talk to the person involved recourse...

then press charges against the boyfriend and
claim and prove custodial rights over your daughter as a minor in your care,
then prove to your peers that your daughter was victimized,
there was injury,
and the accused caused that injury with mal intent

OK then, so no line? So 6yrs old? I mean, come on.

pulling from austrian economics...

An age of consent floor below the 99.99% jury conviction rate would certainly impart less moral hazard than one which attempts to control societal and biological pressures with politically preferred outcomes.

 

[MelissaWV]

I just addressed that, there is no solid answer, but some kind of age must be set, I mean, I have said clearly I am not suggesting I have the perfect age that perfectly suits every situation, only that life isn't always fair, the alternative is.....what? People just make it up as they go along? How do your sort that out?

Let me go back to the DUI example. Let's say someone is driving at a smidge below the legal limit. They are swerving around, though, and through complications arising from other factors (like the person is exhausted, for instance), they wind up going the wrong way down the interstate. Your family member, acting on instinct at the last moment, swerves to avoid a head-on collision but over corrects, sending the car off the interstate and into a guardrail. That family member doesn't survive.

What you are proposing is that cases be decided by a number. In the above scenario, the driver would go free if we're going just by the numbers. They weren't drunk.

Ah but you point out that there was damage done and a life taken and it's obviously the driver's fault?

How do you solve this quandry!

Justice should consist of a complaint, fact-finding, presenting those facts, a finding or findings, and punishment/restitution. Using a number makes it more cut and dry, but that isn't justice. If you're going to deprive someone of their liberty for the rest of their life, the least you can do is not be too lazy to listen to the case in question.

 

[presence]

libertarians prefer free market solutions to societal problems

in economics this means the price system and unregulated commerce
in criminal law this means the juries of peers' interpretation of justice, a victim's accusations, and the state of mind of the accused.

statists prefer regulation to solve societal problems.

in economics this means wage and price controls, taxation, fiat currency, et al.
in criminal law this means statutory per se offences against the state's black and white edicts.

 

[hankrichter12]

Let me go back to the DUI example. Let's say someone is driving at a smidge below the legal limit. They are swerving around, though, and through complications arising from other factors (like the person is exhausted, for instance), they wind up going the wrong way down the interstate. Your family member, acting on instinct at the last moment, swerves to avoid a head-on collision but over corrects, sending the car off the interstate and into a guardrail. That family member doesn't survive.

What you are proposing is that cases be decided by a number. In the above scenario, the driver would go free if we're going just by the numbers. They weren't drunk.

Ah but you point out that there was damage done and a life taken and it's obviously the driver's fault?

How do you solve this quandry!

Justice should consist of a complaint, fact-finding, presenting those facts, a finding or findings, and punishment/restitution. Using a number makes it more cut and dry, but that isn't justice. If you're going to deprive someone of their liberty for the rest of their life, the least you can do is not be too lazy to listen to the case in question.

I'd say those two situations are not comparable, while the driver certainly made some bad decisions, it was not as if there was this clear cut reality that "if you do this, someone will die" as opposed to a person who commits a sex act being fully aware it is illegal and carries a prison sentence.

standard talk to the person involved recourse...

then press charges against the boyfriend and
claim and prove custodial rights over your daughter as a minor in your care,
then prove to your peers that your daughter was victimized,
there was injury,
and the accused caused that injury with mal intent

Press charges? On what basis? You have not set up any type of standards by which my daughter could be considered victimized or that I even have any cause to make that case on her behalf. My peers will make and enforce this ruling?

 

[MelissaWV]

I'd say those two situations are not comparable, while the driver certainly made some bad decisions, it was not as if there was this clear cut reality that "if you do this, someone will die" as opposed to a person who commits a sex act being fully aware it is illegal and carries a prison sentence.

You are literally arguing against hearing the merits of a case, and for deciding the outcomes of multiple lives based on the parties' ages.

 

[dannno]

Nope, you don't get a do-over on childhood.

The Great Oz has spoken!

I'm not really talking as much about a do-over as a continuation.

When I was 13, I knew a guy who was 13 who looked like he was 20. When I was 20 I looked 13. Guys like that older looking dude tended to get more girls in school because girls are attracted to more mature guys. Girls are usually ahead in maturity at that age. I'm in the camp that chronological age has very little meaning for the most part.

Guys live their life and work in large part to help secure a quality female for themselves. Guys who are getting laid when they are young tend to be maturing faster physically, and they will tend to have less determination because they are already getting laid without having to do much and so they will tend towards physical labor jobs or jobs with lower skill requirements when they get older. Guys who take longer to mature, on the other hand, will tend to have more determination to work harder and they will tend to have more lucrative jobs when they get older. They may be at the same maturity level as a 16 year old girl when they are 20-24, physically, mentally or otherwise. So you can say, "too bad for those guys, that's just the way it is.." but you're also saying, "it's too bad for those 16 year old girls, we are going to do as much as we can to make sure they have an inferior set of males their own age to choose from so when they get pregnant they are basically screwed."

 

[presence]

Press charges? On what basis? You have not set up any type of standards by which my daughter could be considered victimized or that I even have any cause to make that case on her behalf. My peers will make and enforce this ruling?

You are claiming she is a minor in your care and she was victimized by assault.
I'm telling you that's great. Now prove it.

Prove she was your dependant.
Prove she was incapable of making her own decisions.
Prove she was a victim.
Prove she sustained injury.
Prove my client injured her knowingly and with mal intent.

No, the number of times the earth revolved around the sun since she popped out of your wife is not conclusive evidence of anything except itself. Nor is the solar age of my client.

at least that is the reaction my family and most in my community would have if he had said that sick crap

Which goes right back to why the market solution of "jury of peers" would work well virtually every time without an official line in the sand "age of consent".

 

[HVACTech]

So, I guess we go back to the obvious question: Are libertarians wanting to change age of consent laws - yes or no? Those FSP people shouted me down for saying that is what they advocate,..... yet it seems like maybe, that is what they advocate.

what our founders advocated for. was local sovereignty.

their wisdom was that there are certain matters sir.. that CANNOT be decided nationally. period.
this is NOT a federal issue. it is a "state" issue.

why do we have 51 CONstitutions.. if there are only 50 "states"?

 

[Origanalist]

The Great Oz has spoken!

I'm not really talking as much about a do-over as a continuation.

When I was 13, I knew a guy who was 13 who looked like he was 20. When I was 20 I looked 13. Guys like that older looking dude tended to get more girls in school because girls are attracted to more mature guys. Girls are usually ahead in maturity at that age. I'm in the camp that chronological age has very little meaning for the most part.

Guys live their life and work in large part to help secure a quality female for themselves. Guys who are getting laid when they are young tend to be maturing faster physically, and they will tend to have less determination because they are already getting laid without having to do much and so they will tend towards physical labor jobs or jobs with lower skill requirements when they get older. Guys who take longer to mature, on the other hand, will tend to have more determination to work harder and they will tend to have more lucrative jobs when they get older. They may be at the same maturity level as a 16 year old girl when they are 20-24, physically, mentally or otherwise. So you can say, "too bad for those guys, that's just the way it is.." but you're also saying, "it's too bad for those 16 year old girls, we are going to do as much as we can to make sure they have an inferior set of males their own age to choose from so when they get pregnant they are basically screwed."

Ha ha ha ha, dannno, you flat out crack me up.

 

[MelissaWV]

Press charges? On what basis? You have not set up any type of standards by which my daughter could be considered victimized or that I even have any cause to make that case on her behalf. My peers will make and enforce this ruling?

If the only way you can press charges and get a prosecution is by leaning on age of consent alone, then you don't have much of a case.