Age of Consent, Libertarians, and RP Forums - some clarification please

[dannno]

Huh? Kinda sounds like you're passing the buck. Goodness people, is it really so hard to wait till 18? Is that really so much to ask?

Apparently less than 10% of people wait until they are 18.. so yes, that is too much to ask.

If they are having sex, what is the inherent difference between them having sex with a guy their own age vs. older, more mature capable person? Why is the second one worse?

When you go to the store to buy eggs, if you look at the expiration date do you choose the eggs that have a shorter expiration date or a longer one? Our DNA does the same thing.. younger women are more attractive to our DNA. Older men are more attractive to women because they usually have more experience and resources. But younger women are also less experienced with life and such, so we have an issue there no doubt and that is why presence comes up with a pretty good solution.

 

[presence]

Huh? Kinda sounds like you're passing the buck.

I'm not passing the buck, I'm being very clear:

Statutes should not determine right or wrong.

Peers should determine if there was indeed injury to the accusing party and blameworthiness in both thought and action of the accused.

Goodness people, is it really so hard to wait till 18? Is that really so much to ask?

yes, again 25% of Americans lose their virginity before age 14. So putting a line at 18 is rather unrealistic and unenforceable except by lottery.

I'm not claiming to have the magic number myself, but come on, it is not that big of a deal.

it is a big deal because when you put a line in the sand... then immediately you make anything on the other side of the line "not crime" even though the disctinction between right and wrong in a spiritual sense is often gray.

I must say it's a bit unnerving to see people chipping away at the edges of this stuff.

I find it unnerving that every nuance of our civilization has been regulated by bureaucrats.

I know, that was my point, people had to "grow up" much faster then.

I hope we don't have to re address the myth that "life expectancy was less than 40 back then".

 

[Christian Liberty]

Oh, and I'll get right on this, when FBI starts raiding NAMBLA.

I wish they would... then finally the FBI will have done something useful in their lives. I won't hold my breath though.

 

[hankrichter12]

I'm not sure if the state is the best way to handle the situation, but I would be ok with an age of consent set at 15 or 16, I think 18 is too high. It appears about 90% of people lose their virginity by that age, and more than half by the age of 16.
The question I've never really had answered is why you would prefer your 16 year old daughter screwing some immature high school loser who will likely never take responsibility for the outcome over a guy in his early 20s who is equipped to deal with the consequences. You are bringing up extreme scenarios that would rarely ever occur, and if they did then the family should be able to put an end to it. But then you are putting these extreme cases in the same category as a less extreme case that would occur much more often.

I don't know where some of you grew up or what your relationship with women happens to be, but if anyone came sniffing around my daughter or any of my nieces at 16 I am going rip off their leg and beat them with it. I would let not her get in such a situation to begin with, she can date, sure, but there will be rules. You want a free society, no govt, OK, fine, so it is now up to parents, uncles, men in the community? That is what you will see.

A boy her age, I would kick his ass if he slept with her, she does not need to be doing that right now, she certainly does not need to be pregnant right now. Some guy my age, I'll shoot him a 100 times. How about that?

Before all the feminists come here, yes, I'd say the same about my son or nephew, but I don't pretend to act as tho I wouldn't have a special hatred for a 40yr old man trying to sputz a 16yr old girl as opposed to the reverse.

You do. It's 18. You've said it yourself. How did you come up with that number?

I didn't come up with that number, it's the number set by the society I was born into, it is not perfect, it does not satisfy everyone, but I don't find it unreasonable either, an age has to be set, that one isn't bad.

 

[specsaregood]

//

 

[tod evans]

I find it unnerving that every nuance of our civilization has been regulated by bureaucrats.

Money shot!

Have some more rep..

 

[hankrichter12]

I'm not passing the buck, I'm being very clear:

Statutes should not determine right or wrong.

Peers should determine if there was indeed injury to the accusing party and blameworthiness in both thought and action of the accused.

You are passing the buck, that is vague. At what point can my son or daughter say "I can do what I want"? What recourse do I have prior to that if I don't agree with the relationship?

yes, again 25% of Americans lose their virginity before age 14. So putting a line at 18 is rather unrealistic and unenforceable except by lottery.

Actually, I'd say it is more of this modern mentality that anything which is hard is suddenly impossible.

it is a big deal because when you put a line in the sand... then immediately you make anything on the other side of the line "not crime" even though the disctinction between right and wrong in a spiritual sense is often gray.

OK then, so no line? So 6yrs old? I mean, come on.

I find it unnerving that every nuance of our civilization has been regulated by bureaucrats.

Never advocated that, this is kid sex man, give me a break, if ever there is a place where most anyone can agree force is OK it'd have to be this.

I hope we don't have to re address the myth that "life expectancy was less than 40 back then".

Must confess, you've completely lost me on that one.

 

[tod evans]

I don't know where some of you grew up or what your relationship with women happens to be, but if anyone came sniffing around my daughter or any of my nieces at 16 I am going rip off their leg and beat them with it. I would let her get in such a situation to begin with, she can date, sure, but there will be rules. You want a free society, no govt, OK, fine, so it is now up to parents, uncles, men in the community? That is what you will see.

A boy her age, I would kick his ass if he slept with her, she does not need to be doing that right now, she certainly does not need to be pregnant right now. Some guy my age, I'll shoot him a 100 times. How about that?

Before all the feminists come here, yes, I'd say the same about my son or nephew, but I don't pretend to act as tho I wouldn't have a special hatred for a 40yr old man trying to sputz a 16yr old girl as opposed to the reverse.




I didn't come up with that number, it's the number set by the society I was born into, it is not perfect, it does not satisfy everyone, but I don't find it unreasonable either, an age has to be set, that one isn't bad.

What type of belief system leads you to believe this?

Even some of the most conservative courts have decreed that kids screwing kids within "X" years of their own age doesn't give rise to prosecution...

I'm all for your idea of the men in the family standing up but I'm dead set against government and her functionaries doing so in their stead.

 

[dannno]

I don't know where some of you grew up or what your relationship with women happens to be, but if anyone came sniffing around my daughter or any of my nieces at 16 I am going rip off their leg and beat them with it. I would let her get in such a situation to begin with, she can date, sure, but there will be rules. You want a free society, no govt, OK, fine, so it is now up to parents, uncles, men in the community? That is what you will see.

A boy her age, I would kick his ass if he slept with her, she does not need to be doing that right now, she certainly does not need to be pregnant right now. Some guy my age, I'll shoot him a 100 times. How about that?

Before all the feminists come here, yes, I'd say the same about my son or nephew, but I don't pretend to act as tho I wouldn't have a special hatred for a 40yr old man trying to sputz a 16yr old girl as opposed to the reverse.




I didn't come up with that number, it's the number set by the society I was born into, it is not perfect, it does not satisfy everyone, but I don't find it unreasonable either, an age has to be set, that one isn't bad.

I totally understand your feelings about protecting your daughter, but here is how I would view that situation. If your daughter is dating a loser, age 16 loser or age 26 loser then you failed. Don't blame the loser, he is just doing what his DNA is telling him to do. Some of the fault may lay with your daughter but most of it is on you. If you physically attack the loser, just know there are millions more losers out there who would have lined up right behind that loser to do the same thing, and so your job is to protect your daughter from them - not through physical force, that is going to accomplish nothing. In fact it may make your daughter go out and screw even bigger losers. Do it through intellectual, philosophical conversation - but MOSTLY by setting a good example. Don't want your daughter to date a loser? Don't be a loser.

Now, the question arises - what happens if an older guy who is a good, upstanding fellow happens to fall in love with your daughter (not 40, 20s)? Or a guy who is the same age? The only difference I see is that the older guy probably has more resources and is better equipped to handle the consequences and is more likely to commit to her.

Why you keep bringing up extreme examples is really baffling to me. I mean, shit, if your 16 year old daughter is willingly dating a 40 year old, guess what? YOU FAILED. You failed hard, you failed bad. You may as well just go cry in your room because you failed. There are plenty of older guys right behind that guy who would have done the same thing, it's up to your daughter to direct her life in a responsible manner, that's the only thing that matters, that's the only thing you should care about.

 

[hankrichter12]

What type of belief system leads you to believe this?

Even some of the most conservative courts have decreed that kids screwing kids within "X" years of their own age doesn't give rise to prosecution...

I'm all for your idea of the men in the family standing up but I'm dead set against government and her functionaries doing so in their stead.

I'm speaking on this topic, people keep trying to jump back and forth between different things. OK, some horny neighbor boy sweet talks my daughter into the back seat of his car, I'm pissed, I'm gonna thump him, try to put the pieces back together after, hopefully she isn't pregnant, if she is I can only pray he was a good guy and I'll do all I can to make that family work and be a good grandfather. If he's an A-Hole I kick his ass twice, tell him to get lost and scold my daughter but then love her and my grandchild and support them as best I can till she can find a husband or make her own way.

That is a situation regarding someone who is about her age, now if you are telling me it is some 38yr old sick bastard down the street, he better call the cops because I will kill him, these are two totally different situations.

But 6yrs old, is not a grey area, 30 something with 14, is not a grey area.

 

[dannno]

geez dannno, you want to make it even more difficult for teenage boys to get laid?

Valid argument.. but what about guys who didn't get laid when they were teenagers? Shouldn't they get a shot?

 

[hankrichter12]

I totally understand your feelings about protecting your daughter, but here is how I would view that situation. If your daughter is dating a loser, age 16 loser or age 26 loser then you failed. Don't blame the loser, he is just doing what his DNA is telling him to do. Some of the fault may lay with your daughter but most of it is on you. If you physically attack the loser, just know there are millions more losers out there who would have lined up right behind that loser to do the same thing, and so your job is to protect your daughter from them - not through physical force, that is going to accomplish nothing. In fact it may make your daughter go out and screw even bigger losers. Do it through intellectual, philosophical conversation - but MOSTLY by setting a good example. Don't want your daughter to date a loser? Don't be a loser.

Now, the question arises - what happens if an older guy who is a good, upstanding fellow happens to fall in love with your daughter? Or a guy who is the same age? The only difference I see is that the older guy probably has more resources and is better equipped to handle the consequences and is more likely to commit to her.

Why you keep bringing up extreme examples is really baffling to me. I mean, $#@!, if your 16 year old daughter is willingly dating a 40 year old, guess what? YOU FAILED. You failed hard, you failed bad. You may as well just go cry in your room because you failed. There are plenty of older guys right behind that guy who would have done the same thing, it's up to your daughter to direct her life in a responsible manner, that's the only thing that matters, that's the only thing you should care about.

I am using extreme examples because that is what the articles were about. As for me failing as a father that is just a big assumption. What if a man has a child with a wonderful woman and she dies of cancer and they spent every penny on her treatment and now he has to work his ass off to support his daughter on his own? She loves him, he loves her, but no getting around the reality that he won't be there much.

My issue is not so much with my daughter in that scenario, I can understand where she is coming from, but the 40yr old? Dude, I'm 40, no way in hell I would ever think it is even in the realm of possibility to get with a 16yr old, you have got to be kidding me. My cousin is 37 and has a 25yr old g/f, it is so stupid, me n him were talking about He-Man the other day, and she says "Oh yeah, I think my dad has some of those", not saying their relationship should be illegal but give me a break, there is no relationship there, he is horny and she has daddy issues.

Like I say, I'm seeing more and more why religions put out these strict laws, to keep sickos from gaining any ground in society, tho it obviously failed.

 

[tod evans]

I'm speaking on this topic, people keep trying to jump back and forth between different things. OK, some horny neighbor boy sweet talks my daughter into the back seat of his car, I'm pissed, I'm gonna thump him, try to put the pieces back together after, hopefully she isn't pregnant, if she is I can only pray he was a good guy and I'll do all I can to make that family work and be a good grandfather. If he's an A-Hole I kick his ass twice, tell him to get lost and scold my daughter but then love her and my grandchild and support them as best I can till she can find a husband or make her own way.

That is a situation regarding someone who is about her age, now if you are telling me it is some 38yr old sick bastard down the street, he better call the cops because I will kill him, these are two totally different situations.

But 6yrs old, is not a grey area, 30 something with 14, is not a grey area.

I never said it was, never said a 25 year old screwing a 16 yer old was a gray area either.

What I keep saying is that this whole who's screwing whom isn't an arena for government and her functionaries.

I'm okay with you telling your daughter and her suitors what is or isn't acceptable, I'm not okay with some unknown perv of a tax tick monitoring their behavior, or yours for that matter, for compliance with their beliefs.....

If Dannno want's to let his 16 y/o daughter date 25 y/o guys that's none of your business either unless you want to address him face to face without government doing it for you........

 

[specsaregood]

Valid argument.. but what about guys who didn't get laid when they were teenagers? Shouldn't they get a shot?

Nope, you don't get a do-over on childhood.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Its funny how radically ideas on this used to differ. It used to be that people would get married as early as reasonably possible....

 

[hankrichter12]

I never said it was, never said a 25 year old screwing a 16 yer old was a gray area either.

What I keep saying is that this whole who's screwing whom isn't an arena for government and her functionaries.

I'm okay with you telling your daughter and her suitors what is or isn't acceptable, I'm not okay with some unknown perv of a tax tick monitoring their behavior, or yours for that matter, for compliance with their beliefs.....

If Dannno want's to let his 16 y/o daughter date 25 y/o guys that's none of your business either unless you want to address him face to face without government doing it for you........

I would agreed with all you said accept that. Let me ask, if Danno wants to beat his kid is that none of my business as well?

Alright, I know, that is extreme, OK then, that is my point, where does that line get drawn?

I would think you'd agree that Danno hitting his kid is a situation where 3rd party intervention is warranted right? So, you would acknowledge there are some situations where it is "my business" with "my" meaning other people in society when it comes to children who are not able to defend themselves.

So the issue becomes where is that line? I did not say 18 because I think it some Holy number, I just say you have to set some number, and I don't think it would be asking much of a 25yr old to wait 2yrs if he really loves her, it might be some BS in a few cases, but like I say, some line has to be drawn somewhere, if you have something other than 18, fine, make your case, but again this just seems to be a dodge because no one wants to come out and set a number since they know there will be others who will disagree, and there is the dilemma, which brings us back to what started this whole thing.

 

[hankrichter12]

I never said it was, never said a 25 year old screwing a 16 yer old was a gray area either.

What I keep saying is that this whole who's screwing whom isn't an arena for government and her functionaries.

I'm okay with you telling your daughter and her suitors what is or isn't acceptable, I'm not okay with some unknown perv of a tax tick monitoring their behavior, or yours for that matter, for compliance with their beliefs.....

If Dannno want's to let his 16 y/o daughter date 25 y/o guys that's none of your business either unless you want to address him face to face without government doing it for you........

I would agreed with all you said accept that. Let me ask, if Danno wants to beat his kid is that none of my business as well?

Alright, I know, that is extreme, OK then, that is my point, where does that line get drawn?

I would think you'd agree that Danno hitting his kid is a situation where 3rd party intervention is warranted right? So, you would acknowledge there are some situations where it is "my business" with "my" meaning other people in society when it comes to children who are not able to defend themselves.

So the issue becomes where is that line? I did not say 18 because I think it some Holy number, I just say you have to set some number, and I don't think it would be asking much of a 25yr old to wait 2yrs if he really loves her, it might be some BS in a few cases, but like I say, some line has to be drawn somewhere, if you have something other than 18, fine, make your case, but again this just seems to be a dodge because no one wants to come out and set a number since they know there will be others who will disagree, and there is the dilemma, which brings us back to what started this whole thing.

 

[MelissaWV]

The spot where this fails is the assumption that every 18 year old is equally mature, and that this maturity is automatically gained at midnight on their 18th birthday. That is what anyone supporting an age of consent is advocating.

If someone is of diminished mental capacity, it won't matter if they are 30. There's a higher chance that a sexual encounter involved coercion. If someone is very mature, they might just be okay at age 14 or 15 losing their virginity --- even to someone slightly older (that doesn't hold some coercive power over them, of course). Moreover, there isn't automatically harm involved in that encounter.

This is the same standpoint people take with the DUI "legal limit" as well, etc..

I understand your "if it's my daughter!" argument. Why do you need the state to tell you when it's okay? Hell, what father automatically goes "well she's 18 now... time to not be bothered by the fact that guy she's dating is fully able to screw her silly"? I'm well past the legal age but I'm 100% certain mom and dad don't want to know what I've done in that sense. What age did you and your friends lose your virginity (rhetorical question but just think about it)? How old were the girls you did it with?

So the focus here should be on the crime, not drawing a hard and fast line in the sand. There are people at AOC -1 that are mature enough to consent. There are people at AOC +1 that are not. If you can agree with that, then you can see how absolutely stupid it is to pick an age and set it as a universal limit punishable by time in jail and sex offender registry.

 

[hankrichter12]

I never said it was, never said a 25 year old screwing a 16 yer old was a gray area either.

What I keep saying is that this whole who's screwing whom isn't an arena for government and her functionaries.

I'm okay with you telling your daughter and her suitors what is or isn't acceptable, I'm not okay with some unknown perv of a tax tick monitoring their behavior, or yours for that matter, for compliance with their beliefs.....

If Dannno want's to let his 16 y/o daughter date 25 y/o guys that's none of your business either unless you want to address him face to face without government doing it for you........

I would have agreed with all you said except that. Let me ask, if Danno wants to beat his kid is that none of my business as well?

Alright, I know, that is extreme, OK then, that is my point, where does that line get drawn?

I would think you'd agree that Danno hitting his kid is a situation where a 3rd party intervention is warranted right? So, you would acknowledge there are some situations where it is "my business" with "my" meaning other people in society when it comes to children who are not able to defend themselves.

So the issue becomes where is that line? I did not say 18 because I think it is some Holy number, I just say you have to set some number, and I don't think it would be asking much of a 25yr old to wait 2yrs if he really loves her, it might be some BS in a few cases, but like I say, some line has to be drawn somewhere, if you have something other than 18, fine, make your case, but again this just seems to be a dodge because no one wants to come out and set a number since they know there will be others who will disagree, and there is the dilemma, which brings us back to what started this whole thing.

 

[MelissaWV]

The spot where this fails is the assumption that every 18 year old is equally mature, and that this maturity is automatically gained at midnight on their 18th birthday. That is what anyone supporting an age of consent is advocating.

If someone is of diminished mental capacity, it won't matter if they are 30. There's a higher chance that a sexual encounter involved coercion. If someone is very mature, they might just be okay at age 14 or 15 losing their virginity --- even to someone slightly older (that doesn't hold some coercive power over them, of course). Moreover, there isn't automatically harm involved in that encounter.

This is the same standpoint people take with the DUI "legal limit" as well, etc..

I understand your "if it's my daughter!" argument. Why do you need the state to tell you when it's okay? Hell, what father automatically goes "well she's 18 now... time to not be bothered by the fact that guy she's dating is fully able to screw her silly"? I'm well past the legal age but I'm 100% certain mom and dad don't want to know what I've done in that sense. What age did you and your friends lose your virginity (rhetorical question but just think about it)? How old were the girls you did it with?

So the focus here should be on the crime, not drawing a hard and fast line in the sand. There are people at AOC -1 that are mature enough to consent. There are people at AOC +1 that are not. If you can agree with that, then you can see how absolutely stupid it is to pick an age and set it as a universal limit punishable by time in jail and sex offender registry.