5 Reasons to Abandon Politics

[heavenlyboy34]

Politics is not neutral, and Matt Collins is right when he says that politics involves human interaction. Some of the members of this forums can be so naive when it comes to subjects like this. We live in a constitutional republic. It affects everything in civil life, from how many jobs are available in a state to what your car payment will be per month. Non-involvement in politics is not going to change anything, especially of you have kids. What kind of world do you want them to live in when they become your age? If you don't fight the invasions of our rights by corrupt politicians today, then you're just allowing despots to rule your children tomorrow. And that is a fact.

Nominally, yes. But in practice the checks are so few and so rarely enforced that it's just a top-down, banana sort of republic at best-Amerika Uber Alles. That is a fact.

 

[Cabal]

Politics is not neutral, and Matt Collins is right when he says that politics involves human interaction. Some of the members of this forums can be so naive when it comes to subjects like this. We live in a constitutional republic. It affects everything in civil life, from how many jobs are available in a state to what your car payment will be per month. Non-involvement in politics is not going to change anything, especially of you have kids. What kind of world do you want them to live in when they become your age? If you don't fight the invasions of our rights by corrupt politicians today, then you're just allowing despots to rule your children tomorrow. And that is a fact.

Naive, eh?

So, tell me something. How has political involvement been treating us so far? Consider for a moment that when the Constitution was drafted and ratified, it was by far the most radical notion of government to have ever been achieved, and it is said to have created the smallest, freest form of governance ever known to a nation. From that, despite many, many decades of passionate, dedicated minds who have fought tooth and nail to keep it small, and keep this nation as free as possible, that same government has grown into the largest, most powerful, most far-reaching government of modern times with no intention of reverting this course of growth, and with every intention of continuing its ever-expansive ways. You call others naive, yet it is you who seem to be in complete disregard of this history. So with that history, and my own experience in mind, I defer to that old saying about insanity--I'm not going to continue doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result.

By the way, non-action is still action. If I am standing still, doing nothing, I am still acting. If I am refusing to vote for the next empty suit others choose to trust, believe in, and rally behind, that is still political action. My refusal to participate is political action, it is a statement, and it is a matter of pride and principle. It is me saying that I, in any way I reasonably can, will not legitimize, condone, support, or participate in this wretched system of violence and destruction any longer. It is me saying I will not be mesmerized by the bread and circuses of shallow, meaningless partisan politics that is purposefully employed for the sake of divide et impera. It is me saying that I will not beg my self-proclaimed masters for table scraps of liberty that rightfully belong to me as a human being who wishes to live their life in peace. It is me saying that I don't believe that our solutions lie within the very structure and system that treats us as disposable tax livestock and cannon fodder. It is me saying that I would find it more fulfilling, and more productive to instead educate myself and affect existential, philosophical, intellectual change within and around my own personal life, because I believe that the only real, positive change we will attain from this ever-deepening grave we've found ourselves in will be generational, not electoral--rejection, not participation. It is me saying that I refuse to lobby for control of the gun in the room, thereby using their own methods of violence to get what I desire. It is me saying that I have not given up, but neither have I given in.

Now I made an exception with Ron Paul, and maybe if someone else comes along of that same caliber, I may make another such exception, though at this point it is highly doubtful. Ron Paul not only helped to further influence my own development and ideology, his political life (among other things) also helped me to realize what I have expressed above. And Ron Paul, and others who support him, may not agree with the conclusions I have reached--they are my conclusions, after all. I respect his choices, and the choices of others where political action is concerned, and I'm thankful he was involved in the way he chose to involve himself. And I wish him, and anyone else who truly pursues the philosophy of liberty the very best of luck in their pursuits. That does not mean I agree with them, or think they will ever bear the fruit we are all so hungry for.

So you can continue doing what you believe is right in the realm of politics, but your way isn't for everyone. For someone who identifies themselves with the principles and movement of liberty, which I assume you must given your participation and association here, you should know better, quite frankly. Beyond the objective realm of such things as morality, biology, physics, and so on... there is no one way for all, and that is an underlying point of liberty. So you do what you think is right, and I will do what I think is right, and others will do what they think is right. But don't patronize those who don't agree with you simply because you refuse to respect another approach that doesn't follow your own.

 

[Matthew5]

Politics is not neutral, and Matt Collins is right when he says that politics involves human interaction. Some of the members of this forums can be so naive when it comes to subjects like this. We live in a constitutional republic. It affects everything in civil life, from how many jobs are available in a state to what your car payment will be per month. Non-involvement in politics is not going to change anything, especially of you have kids. What kind of world do you want them to live in when they become your age? If you don't fight the invasions of our rights by corrupt politicians today, then you're just allowing despots to rule your children tomorrow. And that is a fact.

Yes, and the "politics will affect you, regardless" point has been well covered. Some of us would rather focus on shutting down the plantation rather than participating in who is our owners (even at the threat of beatings from said masters). I assume someone like you can appreciate people making life decisions based on principle rather than "results".

What kind of world do I want my kids to live in when they're my age? A peaceful, voluntary one where the threat of the state is eliminated. You sure as heck aren't going to get that world by perpetuating the system.

 

[Matt Collins]

How has political involvement been treating us so far?

Since the liberty movement got serious about it a few years back, it's been going pretty well for us.

Consider for a moment that when the Constitution was drafted and ratified, it was by far the most radical notion of government to have ever been achieved, and it is said to have created the smallest, freest form of governance ever known to a nation. From that, despite many, many decades of passionate, dedicated minds who have fought tooth and nail to keep it small, and keep this nation as free as possible, that same government has grown into the largest, most powerful, most far-reaching government of modern times with no intention of reverting this course of growth, and with every intention of continuing its ever-expansive ways.

That's because the Constitution itself was a coup against the Articles of Confederation and effectively usurped state power.

Yes, government always tries to expand, such is the nature of humanity. Which is why it's best to diffuse power. But in order to diffuse power you must first possesses it.

By the way, non-action is still action. If I am standing still, doing nothing, I am still acting.

"The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

If I am refusing to vote for the next empty suit others choose to trust, believe in, and rally behind, that is still political action. My refusal to participate is political action, it is a statement, and it is a matter of pride and principle.

No it's not, it's called getting run over and letting bad people, statists, have control.


If you don't have a say in the government, then someone else will. And I can bet you that they won't have the goals of liberty in mind.

It is me saying that I, in any way I reasonably can, will not legitimize, condone, support, or participate in this wretched system of violence and destruction any longer.

Participating in fighting the government does not equate to condoning it's actions, quite the contrary actually.

Nice logical fallacy though:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

It is me saying I will not be mesmerized by the bread and circuses of shallow, meaningless partisan politics that is purposefully employed for the sake of divide et impera. It is me saying that I will not beg my self-proclaimed masters for table scraps of liberty that rightfully belong to me as a human being who wishes to live their life in peace.

I completely agree, but you have to fight for your rights, and you don't always get to choose the time, place, or which battlefield.

So you do what you think is right, and I will do what I think is right, and others will do what they think is right. But don't patronize those who don't agree with you simply because you refuse to respect another approach that doesn't follow your own.

Translation: "I'm going to go off an pout and stamp my feet instead of leaning how to win and putting in the effort to fight government encroachment"..... yeah, that's not going to do anyone any good.

 

[Matt Collins]

What kind of world do I want my kids to live in when they're my age? A peaceful, voluntary one where the threat of the state is eliminated. You sure as heck aren't going to get that world by perpetuating the system.

Again, you make a logical fallacy in that assuming fighting TPTB you are somehow condoning or perpetuating their power.

 

[Matthew5]

Yes, government always tries to expand, such is the nature of humanity. Which is why it's best to diffuse power. But in order to diffuse power you must first possesses it.

Thanks for summing up what a politician does: "Voter! Give me power and I promise I'll return it to you in a timely fashion. Because I'm trust worthy! By the way, I'll need to expend some of that power to enforce the government's will...but it's totally your will too right? I need all the power I can get to defeat these dirty commies. I promise it'll be returned to you."

Total power is achieved and total corruption ensues. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Translation: "I'm going to go off an pout and stamp my feet instead of leaning how to win and putting in the effort to fight government encroachment"..... yeah, that's not going to do anyone any good.

Isn't this the same line of logic neo-cons use to keep us in perpetual war? It's that macho attitude that you gotta win, be right, defeat the enemy, dog eat dog, win at all cost, kill or be killed...

That attitude stands in contrast to my faith. What does my faith tell me? Lay down your life, be a peacemaker, turn the other cheek, forgive 7 X 70, love your enemy, and principles along those lines. It's infinitely more difficult to live such principles through the violence and corruption of the state.

The political war on my doorstep be damned, I'd rather try to live my life by the principles of my faith.

 

[Matthew5]

Again, you make a logical fallacy in that assuming fighting TPTB you are somehow condoning or perpetuating their power.

It's not a logical fallacy. It's one that accounts for the nature of the system, the mechanisms used to employ social change, your side's (statists) track record, and the nature of power.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Yup, ladies and gentlemen, and that pretty much sums up why our country has all but fallen.

Who was it who said something like this? Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

And now we know why he said it.

Disgusting is what it is.

 

[Matthew5]

Yup, ladies and gentlemen, and that pretty much sums up why our country has all but fallen.

Who was it who said something like this? Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

And now we know why he said it.

Disgusting is what it is.

I'll let you in on a dirty anarchist secret. Evil will still exist without government. And it will need to be addressed in society, some would just like to invent a new tool to deal with it other than government (i.e. the state). I'd be willing to bet evil would be reduced rather than increased when power is decentralized in a meaningful manner.

I'd just like your people to get over their Cold War, arms race mentality. Gotta bring nukes to a nuke fight, right? Keep escalating that force continuum.

Peace making is an effort, it's not "doing nothing".

 

[Cabal]

You don't get closer to god by making a deal with the devil.

And no amount of "pouting" and "stamping your feet" is going to change my mind, or the mind of anyone else.

I refuse to participate in this system of institutionalized brutality that destroys lives on a daily basis in the name of virtue. Period. You, we are little more than tax livestock with which they leverage debt upon to continue destroying said lives. This isn't anything new. Voting is not going to change anything--you don't even have a say in anything.

Some guy with a slick haircut and a nice suit promises you goodies that he'll never be able to deliver, and in most cases has no care or intention to anyhow, and you vote him into office every few years. Well, congratulations on your accomplishment. Nothing changes. It never will. Because you fail to understand that none of it matters. It's a rigged game. You're jumping into a circle-jerk that the very system you claim to be fighting has orchestrated for you. You see it every four years, without fail. Hundreds of millions of dollars and countless man-hours are spent campaigning so that some idiot can stand on a stage with several other idiots and regurgitate the same hollow talking points they did two weeks ago. Meanwhile the ignorant mob gathers in the background to cheer and boo on cue, and gather around the pathetic excuse for news media to shout their catchy chants and wave their cute little signs as if they're suddenly going to inspire some widespread epiphany in the people across from them with the same signs and chants that only have a different name printed on them in bold font.

You're right, evil does triumph when good men do nothing, and that's exactly what voting is--not doing a damn thing. You're a hamster in a wheel, not getting anywhere. You're not going to change people's worldview or ideology with two minute soundbytes on a stage, or any number of rehearsed town-hall meetings, or bumper stickers any more than you're going to change their ideology by getting the next clown into Congress. You're not going to defeat an ecosystem of special interests and violence that has persevered for hundreds of years at the expense of hundreds of millions of lives by checking a ballot box. There is no conceivable reason to believe you will. Not now, or ever. Even the Founders realized this and went to war because of it. Unfortunately they only ended up installing yet another State to take the place of the last one they just fought. Hubris.

I don't need to tell you it's not sustainable. Surely you already understand at least that. The debt, the destruction, the violence, the theft, the leeching, the predation. You can see the writing on the wall just as clearly as anyone else. It's only a matter of time and no amount of voting is going to change or save it, and why would you want to save such a vile, horrid thing anyhow? You want to affect change in the world? Get out of the ballot boxes and the phone banks and go create some meaningful, peaceful relationships with people and explore the philosophy of liberty down to its very core, because once that is touched, there is no going back. That stays with a person, and affects them for the rest of their lives, and they will carry it on to the other relationships of their lives, and so on and so forth. That is change. That is substance. That is real. And helping even one single person find that truth is worth more than all the inconsequential ballot boxes you'll ever see.

So go ahead, play their game if you truly think you can beat them at it. But don't be mistaken. It's their game, their design, their deck of cards, their dealer, and their chips. Sure, you may evade HillaryCare every now and then, but a few years later you'll have ObamaCare instead because it's not about the vote, it's about the system; it's not about the window dressing, it's about the foundation. And yeah, the foundation is thoroughly disgusting, which is why I will have nothing to do with it.

 

[Matthew5]

Here's a nice visual since some still don't understand that enforcing your agenda, however noble it may seem, is still done so in a flawed system.

 

[Matt Collins]

Here's a nice visual since some still don't understand that enforcing your agenda, however noble it may seem, is still done so in a flawed system.

Of course it's a flawed system, humans are imperfect and incapable of creating a perfect system.

But regardless, that's the environment in which we have to work. So you can sit back and take it, or you can fight. Either way someone is going to be running the government, I'd rather have some influence and say in it than none.

 

[Matt Collins]

You don't get closer to god by making a deal with the devil.

No one is talking about making any deals with anyone...

I refuse to participate in this system of institutionalized brutality that destroys lives on a daily basis in the name of virtue.

You don't have a choice, it has power and you don't. Unless of course you also gain power.

Voting is not going to change anything--you don't even have a say in anything.

That is incorrect. Voting in and of itself doesn't usually change anything, but there are cases when it does. And more specifically, it's not the act of voting as much as what you do to the elected officials before and during the election. You can change their behavior, they are very Pavlovian, you just have to know which pressure points work, and when/how to apply them. In most cases you can get them to beg for you. In the cases where you can't, then you have to get them thrown out of office next election and replace them with someone that you put in who will do what you want them to do (restrain the government)

It's a rigged game.

Actually it's not, and you can have control and influence if you're willing to do what it takes. But that means mobilizing people to cause political pain on the politicians.

You're right, evil does triumph when good men do nothing, and that's exactly what voting is--not doing a damn thing.

As I have said, you have to do more than just vote, you have to run candidates, you have to hurt bad candidates, you have to mobilize people.

You're a hamster in a wheel, not getting anywhere.

Not true, I have killed and passed legislation, and I have had a very large hand in getting people elected/unelected. I have no money and I don't have a political science degree. It's all about effort.

You're not going to change people's worldview or ideology with two minute soundbytes on a stage, or any number of rehearsed town-hall meetings, or bumper stickers any more than you're going to change their ideology by getting the next clown into Congress.

And here is where many of my fellow liberty people fail in their thinking... changing the government isn't about changing anyone's minds or way of thinking or worldview, it's about convincing them to vote for your guy or against the other guy. It's much easier to do that. We don't need to change people's minds, we simply need to mobilize them for specific reasons.

I don't need to tell you it's not sustainable. Surely you already understand at least that. The debt, the destruction, the violence, the theft, the leeching, the predation. You can see the writing on the wall just as clearly as anyone else. It's only a matter of time and no amount of voting is going to change or save it, and why would you want to save such a vile, horrid thing anyhow?

This is why state-level government should be our focus. It's easy to kill legislation there and not impossible to pass legislation, plus getting our people into state legislatures isn't impossible either.

You want to affect change in the world? Get out of the ballot boxes and the phone banks and go create some meaningful, peaceful relationships with people and explore the philosophy of liberty down to its very core, because once that is touched, there is no going back. That stays with a person, and affects them for the rest of their lives, and they will carry it on to the other relationships of their lives, and so on and so forth. That is change. That is substance. That is real. And helping even one single person find that truth is worth more than all the inconsequential ballot boxes you'll ever see.

And it accomplishes nothing. Why take the long way to the goal when the short way will work?

 

[jllundqu]

that's what they used to say about slavery

Anytime 2 or more people are speaking, politics is involved.... to paraphrase machiavelli

 

[Matt Collins]

I'll let you in on a dirty anarchist secret. Evil will still exist without government. And it will need to be addressed in society, some would just like to invent a new tool to deal with it other than government (i.e. the state). I'd be willing to bet evil would be reduced rather than increased when power is decentralized in a meaningful manner.

Absolutely. But in order to decentralize power you must first posses it.

 

[Matt Collins]

Thanks for summing up what a politician does: "Voter! Give me power and I promise I'll return it to you in a timely fashion. Because I'm trust worthy! By the way, I'll need to expend some of that power to enforce the government's will...but it's totally your will too right? I need all the power I can get to defeat these dirty commies. I promise it'll be returned to you."

If you control that politician, or if it's a liberty guy, then that doesn't happen.

Isn't this the same line of logic neo-cons use to keep us in perpetual war? It's that macho attitude that you gotta win, be right, defeat the enemy, dog eat dog, win at all cost, kill or be killed...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause


Just because neocons use that line of thinking for their agenda doesn't mean it is an invalid line of thinking in other areas.

It's infinitely more difficult to live such principles through the violence and corruption of the state.

The government will oppose those principles on you unless you fight them. I mean your tax dollars already fund the government's activities. If you want to change that, you have to do what is necessary which means getting involved in the political process to affect the direction of government.

 

[Theocrat]

Answer My Question

Naive, eh?

So, tell me something. How has political involvement been treating us so far? Consider for a moment that when the Constitution was drafted and ratified, it was by far the most radical notion of government to have ever been achieved, and it is said to have created the smallest, freest form of governance ever known to a nation. From that, despite many, many decades of passionate, dedicated minds who have fought tooth and nail to keep it small, and keep this nation as free as possible, that same government has grown into the largest, most powerful, most far-reaching government of modern times with no intention of reverting this course of growth, and with every intention of continuing its ever-expansive ways. You call others naive, yet it is you who seem to be in complete disregard of this history. So with that history, and my own experience in mind, I defer to that old saying about insanity--I'm not going to continue doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result.

By the way, non-action is still action. If I am standing still, doing nothing, I am still acting. If I am refusing to vote for the next empty suit others choose to trust, believe in, and rally behind, that is still political action. My refusal to participate is political action, it is a statement, and it is a matter of pride and principle. It is me saying that I, in any way I reasonably can, will not legitimize, condone, support, or participate in this wretched system of violence and destruction any longer. It is me saying I will not be mesmerized by the bread and circuses of shallow, meaningless partisan politics that is purposefully employed for the sake of divide et impera. It is me saying that I will not beg my self-proclaimed masters for table scraps of liberty that rightfully belong to me as a human being who wishes to live their life in peace. It is me saying that I don't believe that our solutions lie within the very structure and system that treats us as disposable tax livestock and cannon fodder. It is me saying that I would find it more fulfilling, and more productive to instead educate myself and affect existential, philosophical, intellectual change within and around my own personal life, because I believe that the only real, positive change we will attain from this ever-deepening grave we've found ourselves in will be generational, not electoral--rejection, not participation. It is me saying that I refuse to lobby for control of the gun in the room, thereby using their own methods of violence to get what I desire. It is me saying that I have not given up, but neither have I given in.

Now I made an exception with Ron Paul, and maybe if someone else comes along of that same caliber, I may make another such exception, though at this point it is highly doubtful. Ron Paul not only helped to further influence my own development and ideology, his political life (among other things) also helped me to realize what I have expressed above. And Ron Paul, and others who support him, may not agree with the conclusions I have reached--they are my conclusions, after all. I respect his choices, and the choices of others where political action is concerned, and I'm thankful he was involved in the way he chose to involve himself. And I wish him, and anyone else who truly pursues the philosophy of liberty the very best of luck in their pursuits. That does not mean I agree with them, or think they will ever bear the fruit we are all so hungry for.

So you can continue doing what you believe is right in the realm of politics, but your way isn't for everyone. For someone who identifies themselves with the principles and movement of liberty, which I assume you must given your participation and association here, you should know better, quite frankly. Beyond the objective realm of such things as morality, biology, physics, and so on... there is no one way for all, and that is an underlying point of liberty. So you do what you think is right, and I will do what I think is right, and others will do what they think is right. But don't patronize those who don't agree with you simply because you refuse to respect another approach that doesn't follow your own.

I'll use a visual aid to help you out (special thanks to LoneStarLocke):

How has anarchism (or voluntaryism) stopped the "gun" from being "pointed" in the faces of the anarchists/voluntaryists who disagree with the system?

 

[Cabal]

How has anarchism (or voluntaryism) stopped the "gun" from being "pointed" in the faces of the anarchists/voluntaryists who disagree with the system?

How has voting?

 

[Matthew5]

I'll use a visual aid to help you out (special thanks to LoneStarLocke):

How has anarchism (or voluntaryism) stopped the "gun" from being "pointed" in the faces of the anarchists/voluntaryists who disagree with the system?

The point of the graphic is to show you the morality of the situation. It's lose/lose.

It won't always stop the gun from being pointed, and that's a cost a voluntarist has to be willing to bear. It's a much higher stakes game than playing Risk with a bunch of rich people.

 

[Matthew5]

Just because neocons use that line of thinking for their agenda doesn't mean it is an invalid line of thinking in other areas.

The point was that it's a deplorable attitude in them, and so it should be in libertarians. And it's one we used to decry...shouldn't we walk the walk?

The government will oppose those principles on you unless you fight them. I mean your tax dollars already fund the government's activities. If you want to change that, you have to do what is necessary which means getting involved in the political process to affect the direction of government.

Please show me the nearest black hole to send the government, then I'd consider getting involved. Not really interested in playing lion tamer.