5 Reasons to Abandon Politics

[helmuth_hubener]

In my own life, I have seen real and tangible effects from many other things. So I will have to disagree with you.

You are falling into the fallacy of basing a conclusion on anecdotal evidence.

You said: Only putting direct pressure on politicians has any real and tangible effect. In order to buttress this claim, by the way, the only evidence you have given in this thread is experience from your own life wherein you have put pressure on a politician and seen just such real and tangible effects (that is: anecdotal evidence).

Now in my own life, I have indeed seen real and tangible effects occur from many things other than putting direct pressure on politicians. That is a fact. Even if my life experience is woefully statistically insignificant, highly unusual, etc., you said "only". That is, you claim that nothing but putting direct pressure on politicians ever has a real and tangible effect. But I have seen things which have. Just one incidence of contradiction is sufficient to show the theory wrong in this case, due to the type of claim that it makes. I have experienced not just one, but many such incidences. So clearly the theory is wrong. Perhaps you should refine it.

You are falling into the fallacy of basing a conclusion on your personal incredulity.

I explicitly stated the bases of my incredulity: complete lack of historical precedent (that is, empirical falsification of your predicted outcome) and the logical dubiousness of even a theoretical causal pathway to an outcome in reality wherein the secular power is able, for extended periods of time, to successfully foist policies on their host population to which the population is overwhelmingly opposed to.

In short: politicans are not the only people who matter in politics. Other people matter, too. This would seem elementary. But, apparently, it must be stated, since you bizarrely hold the alternative view.

 

[Cabal]

 

[Matt Collins]

0

Agorism has had a real, tangible effect on his life, making your "only politics" statement clearly false.

Really?

He still has to pay taxes. He still doesn't own his own land. He still has his rights diminished when he flies. The value of his money decreases. He can't ingest certain things into his body. Only working through the political process can change those things.

 

[familydog]

0Really?

He still has to pay taxes. He still doesn't own his own land. He still has his rights diminished when he flies. The value of his money decreases. He can't ingest certain things into his body. Only working through the political process can change those things.

Matt, come on. You can't solve the manifestation of violent and dominant behavior (taxes, prohibition and harassment) by also initiating violence. You don't smack a toddler across his face in an effort to teach him that hitting other children is wrong. Violence begets violence. Until the majority realize this very simple concept, the cycle of violence and rule will only spread.

 

[Cabal]

0Really?

He still has to pay taxes. He still doesn't own his own land. He still has his rights diminished when he flies. The value of his money decreases. He can't ingest certain things into his body. Only working through the political process can change those things.

The fact that you don't, or can't realize the absurdity of this post is kinda bizarre.

 

[IDefendThePlatform]

0Really?

He still has to pay taxes. He still doesn't own his own land. He still has his rights diminished when he flies. The value of his money decreases. He can't ingest certain things into his body. Only working through the political process can change those things.

I think you're missing some of the more obvious successes of agorism.
For Helmuth specifically I don't know, maybe he has been able to avoid some taxes and pay for a trip he wanted to go on. Or bought some drugs through the black market. Or employed an "illegal immigrant".

You say "Only politics" but clearly people have created the ability to do things against the govt's demands rather than just campaigning for permission. Silk road and bitcoin are just the latest examples in an old, old fight.

13 million "illegal" immigrants are better off today working and living in Amerika because people used agorism rather than politics and worked to find ways past the border patrol.
Same for
-recreational drug users
-prostitutes
-tax evaders
etc

People see ways to carve out more freedom for themselves and they do it, and little by little we are gaining ground. Its an exciting time with bitcoin, tor, 3-d printing and other technologies it seems more possible than ever that we might actually get to some semblance of liberty in our lifetimes. Politics is just not nearly as effective IMO.

 

[Matt Collins]

Matt, come on. You can't solve the manifestation of violent and dominant behavior (taxes, prohibition and harassment) by also initiating violence.

I never said anything about initiating violence.

You don't smack a toddler across his face in an effort to teach him that hitting other children is wrong. Violence begets violence. Until the majority realize this very simple concept, the cycle of violence and rule will only spread.

Actually paddling a toddler on the butt works quite well.

 

[Matt Collins]

I don't know, maybe he has been able to avoid some taxes and pay for a trip he wanted to go on. Or bought some drugs through the black market. Or employed an "illegal immigrant".

The fact that he has to avoid taxes, or go to the black market, or hire someone underground is because of politics, not inspite of it.

People see ways to carve out more freedom for themselves and they do it, and little by little we are gaining ground. Its an exciting time with bitcoin, tor, 3-d printing and other technologies it seems more possible than ever that we might actually get to some semblance of liberty in our lifetimes. Politics is just not nearly as effective IMO.

No, not at all. Technology can press the issue and make some laws irrelevant or unenforceable but you can still be prosecuted and your liberty/property taken away. The only way to fix that is through the political process.

 

[IDefendThePlatform]

The fact that he has to avoid taxes, or go to the black market, or hire someone underground is because of politics, not inspite of it..

You're missing the point. We are discussing the best tactics for acheiving freedom.


Govt thugs made a tyrannical law; in response we can either
1) spend our time petitioning politicians to change the law through the political process, or
2) spend our time working on ways to subvert the illigimate law and enjoy the freedom to do drugs/prostitution/immigration/etc RIGHT NOW. The potential for aggression from state thugs in the form of arrest is a consideration, but obviously not the only one since people risk arrest and often death to subvert immigration laws, for one example.




As far as the eventual endgame, a quick summary of what agorism is and how it aims to achieve freedomfrom agorism.info)


In a market anarchist society, law and security would be provided by market actors instead of political institutions. Agorists recognize that situation can not develop through political reform. Instead, it will arise as a result of market processes.


As the state is banditry, revolution culminates in the suppression of the criminal state by market providers of security and law. Market demand for such service providers is what will lead to their emergence. Development of that demand will come from economic growth in the sector of the economy that explicitly shuns state involvement (and thus can not turn to the state in its role as monopoly provider of security and law). That sector of the economy is the counter-economy -- black and grey markets.




building the counter economy >>> electioneering/politics

 

[familydog]

Actually paddling a toddler on the butt works quite well.

Paddling? Why not just be honest and call it hitting? The fact that you advocate violence towards defenseless children speaks volumes.

 

[Matt Collins]

Paddling? Why not just be honest and call it hitting? The fact that you advocate violence towards defenseless children speaks volumes.

Humans are Pavlovian and their behavior is changed according to pain and pleasure. There is nothing wrong with causing a small amount of pain to a child in order to shape their behavior. In many cases the pain is actually negligible.

 

[Cabal]

Oh look, a statist advocating and rationalizing violence... against children. Surprise, surprise.

 

[Matt Collins]

Oh look, a statist advocating and rationalizing violence... against children. Surprise, surprise.

1- I am not a statist
2- Physically disciplining a child is not violence


Nice try though

 

[Cabal]

What's next, "3- taxation is not theft?", "4- war is peace," etc.

Lol. Sure thing there, Collins. Whatever you say.

Edit: I also like how you're talking about 'physical discipline' now instead of 'hitting' or 'paddling'.

 

[Matt Collins]

What's next, "3- taxation is not theft?"

Of course taxation is theft, duh

 

[Matt Collins]

Govt thugs made a tyrannical law; in response we can either
1) spend our time petitioning politicians to change the law through the political process, or

#FAIL

I don't think you've read anything I have written..

I am not talking about "petitioning" politicians, I'm talking about inflicting severe political pain upon politicians to change their behavior, with the idea being that you get them unelected and like-minded liberty people put into their place.


And you're also running into this:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

2) spend our time working on ways to subvert the illigimate law and enjoy the freedom to do drugs/prostitution/immigration/etc RIGHT NOW.

And that's a very quick way to end up in prison, or have all of your property confiscated. I want real freedom, I want not to have to hide from the government. The only way to get the government off of our backs is to have bully the politicians into submission.

building the counter economy >>> electioneering/politics

You fail to understand that economics and law are intertwined...

http://www.law.gmu.edu/library/guides/research/lawecon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_economics

 

[IDefendThePlatform]

#FAIL

I don't think you've read anything I have written..

I am not talking about "petitioning" politicians, I'm talking about inflicting severe political pain upon politicians to change their behavior, with the idea being that you get them unelected and like-minded liberty people put into their place.

Using phrases like "inflicting political pain" doesn't change the nature of what you're doing. It's electioneering, and everyone on this board knows what politics is. Notice I didn't write out every agorist action in that short 1 vs 2 summary either.
Feel free to make whatever list you want of political actions(in fact it would be nice to actually compare lists head-to-head), but absolutely everyone on this board knows the basics of what trying to influence politics entails (voting, emailing, donating, calling, etc). The options I'm interested in debating are:
1) Politics
vs.
2) Agorism

I won't be writing out every available action within each of these 2 categories every time I want to compare these 2 options.

 

[IDefendThePlatform]

And you're also running into this:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

What I posted isn't even remotely close to a logical fallacy. If you think there are more options feel free to bring them up but what I'm discussing is politics vs agorism. Working through the political process or working through counter-economics, which is more effective? It's pretty clear you don't fully understand those "logical fallacy" links you've been posting: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...don-Politics&p=5165590&viewfull=1#post5165590

We all have limited time and resources in which to pursue the cause of liberty. Should we use them in political action, or in counter economics? Should I run for political office or start an agorist business? Which is more effective?




I'll respond to the rest of your post later, but its basically already been addressed in the part you didn't quote where I said people take the possibility of arrest into consideration in trying to maximize their own freedom.

There IS another option besides politics. And it could very well be more effective both immediately and in the long-run.

 

[Matt Collins]

Using phrases like "inflicting political pain" doesn't change the nature of what you're doing. It's electioneering,

Not always, no. Causing political pain doesn't have to involve electoral activity. It can simply be embarrassing the politician, or annoying them, or making their lives harder.

 

[BetterCallSaul]

Politics is a crappy avenue to affect change, in general.

While it is true that "everything is political," this does not mean that everything need be aimed at being an electoral or legislative process.

Defying laws is political, but is obviously not what the OP's article refers to as "politics."

In the officially-sanctioned, partisan edifice sense of the word politics, politics does just suck. It is literally a game wherein the players compete to better organize the lowest common-denominators in a given cultural block. How to mobilize the most idiots using the most effective methods of control and suggestion; it necessarily omits the real purposes of the players, because most in the crowd that are activated by the game's many tricks are incapable of understanding any of that at all- they respond to emotional calls to rally around jesus or children or victims or foreigners or war or peace or prison or policemen; it's all just emotional manipulation of deadened, ignorant and unintelligent dupes.

So, how does one participate in such a process and remain clean? How does one EXCEL in such a process and earn the trust of any good and decent and intelligent people?