12 year old girl arrested for doodling on her desk, sues NYC

[MelissaWV]

lol. I would just sit in detention for the entire day. One of my schools was abusive, though. They would grab the back of your neck while your head was on the desk and would insult you "youre a effin loser, you will never be anything, etc" Do you advocate such things? I wasn't hit by them, but there was a lot of verbal abuse. And they would grab your neck and get in real close as they say very nasty things to you.

That was a school for kids with behavioral problems. cos I was expelled from every school in my town. yea, pity me lol

Hitting only made me resentful towards family.

This why I said I don't want to hit my future children. Hey, maybe I'm naive, don't know yet.

I think that experience clouds everyone's views on this issue. It seems like if you speak to 100 different people who say it's okay to hit their kids from time to time, you will find the entire spectrum: hitting only in cases of emergency to hitting for each and every "offense." I used to believe that people who said it was "okay" were mostly towards the latter, the abusive end of the spectrum. What you should realize, though, is that children lack the ability to reason at young ages. This means that if something's REALLY critical it might need to be punctuated by striking which is appropriate to their age, size, and so on. We're talking about a swat on the butt, for example. The way I figure it, there are situations where allowing the child to go on and do what they were about to do was going to injure them, sometimes incredibly seriously.

"Don't run into the street." A child may not have the foresight to figure out why they shouldn't run into the street. If the child somehow slips away and starts making a mad dash for the street, and you catch up to them, a smack may help connect running into the street with pain, and it's certainly more safe than letting them learn the lesson by getting hit by a car.

Of course, the other end of that spectrum comes when abusive parents hit and worse for every little thing. A lot of really awful stories are out there where a parent will strike or shake a baby for soiling itself. A lot of those children die.

Frankly, I don't think that giving teachers the right to paddle children is the answer, no. Parenting is the parents' responsibility. Now, if the child wants to be disruptive, it's the teacher's job to teach, so they should be well within their rights to have that child removed. If something so awful is going on that the police need to be called (or, in another kind of society, the school's security detail), then so be it, but I still don't think scribbling on a desk qualifies.

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

I feel different. I was hit and I didn't like it. I am going on experience here Why can't you see eye to eye with a child?

Because a child is a child, and they need to be taught. Sometimes, they don't pay attention, or listen and they need something that grabs their attention. Sometimes a good talking to works, sometimes it doesnt. I was spanked too, I didn't like it however I was smart enough NOT to do it again and learned that it was not okay, and WHO was in control. I also learned to respect those around me.

I know someone that doesnt spank her child and he is a rotten little kid. Has no manners, and does what he wants. She is very "liberal" in her views, and treats her child like an equal. Well, that doesnt work. Hes under 4, and thinks hes a little adult. Believe me, it does not work. I'll be willing to bet that hes in jail by the time hes 12. He has no boundries, and helps himself to whatever is in your purse. Whats yours is his. Yep, kid will be in jail by the time hes 12.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

No. The appropriate response is to make her get a wet towel and wash all the desks in the room, preferably while her classmates get to watch.

IMO, unless the parents have explicitly signed away on a set of summary punishments (which would for the sake of the point I'm making include the type of punishment you describe)
the school can inflict on their child based on their say so alone (which is after all that you have when no evidence is presented to you that the act occurred and that the act was by the
hand of your child before punishment is administered), I would have to disagree with you.

Presumed Guilty / Summary Punishment mindset is bad for adults and its also bad for children.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Because a child is a child, and they need to be taught. Sometimes, they don't pay attention, or listen and they need something that grabs their attention. Sometimes a good talking to works, sometimes it doesnt. I was spanked too, I didn't like it however I was smart enough NOT to do it again and learned that it was not okay, and WHO was in control. I also learned to respect those around me.

I know someone that doesnt spank her child and he is a rotten little kid. Has no manners, and does what he wants. She is very "liberal" in her views, and treats her child like an equal. Well, that doesnt work. Hes under 4, and thinks hes a little adult. Believe me, it does not work. I'll be willing to bet that hes in jail by the time hes 12. He has no boundries, and helps himself to whatever is in your purse. Whats yours is his. Yep, kid will be in jail by the time hes 12.

lol. Maybe some other factors played a part? Grounding doesn't work? Taking away privileges doesn't work? I was never that way

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

IMO, unless the parents have explicitly signed away on a set of summary punishments the school can inflict on their child based on their say so alone (which is after all that you have when no evidence is presented to you that the act occurred and that the act was by the hand of your child before punishment is administered), I would have to disagree with you.

The schools duty is to TEACH. The school could have taught a better lesson by making the child clean the desks, instead of having her arrested. This is the problem with todays kids. No one wants anyone giving discipline to their kids eventhough the kids are being taken care of most of the day by the state. The kids learn nothing as a result, and end up being horrible products of society.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

Because a child is a child, and they need to be taught. Sometimes, they don't pay attention, or listen and they need something that grabs their attention. Sometimes a good talking to works, sometimes it doesnt. I was spanked too, I didn't like it however I was smart enough NOT to do it again and learned that it was not okay, and WHO was in control. I also learned to respect those around me.

I know someone that doesnt spank her child and he is a rotten little kid. Has no manners, and does what he wants. She is very "liberal" in her views, and treats her child like an equal. Well, that doesnt work. Hes under 4, and thinks hes a little adult. Believe me, it does not work. I'll be willing to bet that hes in jail by the time hes 12. He has no boundries, and helps himself to whatever is in your purse. Whats yours is his. Yep, kid will be in jail by the time hes 12.

Adults have the purse strings and control of the residence thus the disciplining options are several that do not involve physical striking while ensuring that basic necessities to life are still provided to meet basic standard of care parents have towards their children:

Removal of various Luxuries eg. TV, Computer, Mobile.
Reduction of Gifting eg. Birthdays, New Years, Xmas.
Reduction of Visitation by Friends
Reduction of Pocket Money

These changes and others like them, would have to be graduated up and down in response to positive/negative behaviour.

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

lol. Maybe some other factors played a part? Grounding doesn't work? Taking away privileges doesn't work? I was never that way

A good smack in the butt and a talking to usually cleared it up for me. Of course my parents worked as a team, so there was no way I could win. Grounding and privileges? What privileges? We had no cable tv until I was about 8 or 9 years old, the tv we did have was 13 inches, and the best toy I had was a piece of plastic that was about 25 foot long that was fun to slide down in the summer. If I acted up at the dinner table I was sent to my room without supper. I mean really. Go hungry one time and you wont do it again, I promise.

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

Adults have the purse strings and control of the residence thus the disciplining options are several that do not involve physical striking while ensuring that basic necessities to life are still provided to meet basic standard of care parents have towards their children:

Removal of various Luxuries eg. TV, Computer, Mobile.
Reduction of Gifting eg. Birthdays, New Years, Xmas.
Reduction of Visitation by Friends
Reduction of Pocket Money

These changes and others like them, would have to be graduated up and down in response to positive/negative behaviour.

Well see, my children wouldnt have TV, or Mobile, or pocket money unless they earned it by working. Computer would be limited anyways. Gifting wouldn't be like most kids have it today. Ive seen one of my friends drop 3k dollars for a birthday at disney and then come back home and say they need to buy a present for her kid. lolz Whatever.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

The schools duty is to TEACH. The school could have taught a better lesson by making the child clean the desks, instead of having her arrested. This is the problem with todays kids. No one wants anyone giving discipline to their kids eventhough the kids are being taken care of most of the day by the state. The kids learn nothing as a result, and end up being horrible products of society.

School should not have the right to force the child to perform unpaid cleaning services without explicit consent of the parents regardless of the leading circumstances.

Also, I think it is the parents responsibility to teach discipline to the children and only they can delegate such authority to a 3rd party and thus no 3rd party should able to assume this responsibility without express consent
specifying what punishments are acceptable to the parents.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

Well see, my children wouldnt have TV, or Mobile, or pocket money unless they earned it by working. Computer would be limited anyways. Gifting wouldn't be like most kids have it today. Ive seen one of my friends drop 3k dollars for a birthday at disney and then come back home and say they need to buy a present for her kid. lolz Whatever.

In your case, you would take the approach of rewarding good behaviour, which if performed correctly, would starve negative behaviour out of motivators.

Its not logically consistent or moral in my view to hit children until an arbitrary age at which point you begin to respect their right not to be hit by you
(or maybe you're scared that a retaliatory strike may do some damage in which case you're a coward).

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

A good smack in the butt and a talking to usually cleared it up for me. Of course my parents worked as a team, so there was no way I could win. Grounding and privileges? What privileges? We had no cable tv until I was about 8 or 9 years old, the tv we did have was 13 inches, and the best toy I had was a piece of plastic that was about 25 foot long that was fun to slide down in the summer. If I acted up at the dinner table I was sent to my room without supper. I mean really. Go hungry one time and you wont do it again, I promise.

lol. Wow. My parents was never around, I was left @ my grandparents, so I was left to do whatever I wanted as long as I didn't get them mad at me. If my uncle/gpa/mom's bf/aunt got mad at me, I would get hit, and I distinctly recall my uncle punching me right in the stomach...could...not....breath lol not sure why, though.

so you were never resentful? or maybe you "grew out" of the rebellious phase? lol

I guess.... I just take it easy. Like the eagles song, "take it easy" lol

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

lol. Wow. My parents was never around, I was left @ my grandparents, so I was left to do whatever I wanted as long as I didn't get them mad at me. If my uncle/gpa/mom's bf/aunt got mad at me, I would get hit, and I distinctly recall my uncle punching me right in the stomach...could...not....breath lol not sure why, though.

so you were never resentful? or maybe you "grew out" of the rebellious phase? lol

I guess.... I just take it easy. Like the eagles song, "take it easy" lol

Yeah I see the problem. No I wasn't resentful. I respected my parents, and I had structure. Which is very important.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Yeah I see the problem. No I wasn't resentful. I respected my parents, and I had structure. Which is very important.

See what problem?

You can't always be expected to respect your parent. What if he/she is a total jackass? Or a dumbass? What then?

Not everything is universal, Jenn. Everyone has their own perspective that they bring to the table.

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

School should not have the right to force the child to perform unpaid cleaning services without explicit consent of the parents regardless of the leading circumstances.

Also, I think it is the parents responsibility to teach discipline to the children and only they can delegate such authority to a 3rd party and thus no 3rd party should able to assume this responsibility without express consent
specifying what punishments are acceptable to the parents.

Thats bullshit. The child helped create the problem. It would show the child that what they are doing is not easy to clean up. I would support the school 100% if my child were busted drawing on desks, and because my child new that I would support the school 100% on this, they would know that it was unacceptable. Its not about cleaning because the school doesn't want to pay someone. Its about teaching the child that there are consequences for their actions, and to respect property.

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

See what problem?

You can't always be expected to respect your parent. What if he/she is a total jackass? Or a dumbass? What then?

Not everything is universal, Jenn. Everyone has their own perspective that they bring to the table.

Thats the problem YOU have. Not I. Since I was brought up in a structured home, I learned to respect my parents, and didnt resent them for dropping me off at my grandparents house, or shuffled around. I just know that what my parents did, worked. Sometimes it involved a spanking, sometimes it involved hard work, and sometimes it only involved a good talking to. Not one of those times, did I ever feel that my parents were a jackass, or dumbass. Somewhere along the lines you didn't learn to respect your parents because possibly your parents didn't demand respect or give you proper structure and guidance. If they did you never would think that about your parents.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Thats the problem YOU have. Not I. Since I was brought up in a structured home, I learned to respect my parents, and didnt resent them for dropping me off at my grandparents house, or shuffled around. I just know that what my parents did, worked. Sometimes it involved a spanking, sometimes it involved hard work, and sometimes it only involved a good talking to. Not one of those times, did I ever feel that my parents were a jackass, or dumbass. Somewhere along the lines you didn't learn to respect your parents because possibly your parents didn't demand respect or give you proper structure and guidance. If they did you never would think that about your parents.

Do you think parents like that deserve respect? If your mom abandoned you for her bf, would you still respect her? If your dad was a cokehead deadbeat, would you still respect him? Would you be nice to them and want to patch things up? Or would you say "eff off" and not bother with them anymore?

I ask because some people believe that you should respect your parents no matter what. Well, hehe, I think that's a load of bull

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

Do you think parents like that deserve respect? If your mom abandoned you for her bf, would you still respect her? If your dad was a cokehead deadbeat, would you still respect him? Would you be nice to them and want to patch things up? Or would you say "eff off" and not bother with them anymore?

I ask because some people believe that you should respect your parents no matter what. Well, hehe, I think that's a load of bull

Thats what im saying. The problem is you didn't have structure. If you would have had some form of structure you would have had respect for your parents. I'm not saying that you should respect your parents no matter what. Im saying its the parents job to demand respect, and by doing that they need to set up an environment that allows the kid to learn how to be a productive member of society. This cannot be done if there is no structure and discipline in the home.

 

[JeNNiF00F00]

double post

 

[MelissaWV]

Thats what im saying. The problem is you didn't have structure. If you would have had some form of structure you would have had respect for your parents. I'm not saying that you should respect your parents no matter what. Im saying its the parents job to demand respect, and by doing that they need to set up an environment that allows the kid to learn how to be a productive member of society. This cannot be done if there is no structure and discipline in the home.

I had a bunch of every single thing you've talked about, and I'm sorry but I still hate my parents. Their ideas were twisted, but if you ask them about it they will tell you that they were instilling values. They demanded and demanded and demanded, and that might have been a major contributing factor to why I fled at the first opportunity to finish raising myself.

They didn't drop me off anywhere or shuffle me around. "Spankings" devolved into just plain hitting, and for completely wrong reasons. Things that should have led to discussions instead became stressful and physically dangerous situations. My parents will still insist, however, that they were just "spankings."

Their idea of hard work involved doing all sorts of odd jobs at the ballet studio my sister insisted on attending. They couldn't afford the tuition, so while I was still little we were there scrubbing and cleaning out changing rooms, bathrooms, and studios. If I did a good job, I got a Slurpee.

The good talking to portion of things never really went my way. To this day, my entire family speaks at a volume that is actually painful to me. I speak firmly but do not raise my voice. They were never able to do that, and they were never able to present their point to me logically. If they felt they were losing, they had to yell. They would insist this is still a "good talking to."

This is my point about perception. I am not saying that you have a warped definition of all of those terms, but I am saying that people have varied definitions of them overall. I wasn't in a cliche abusive home, but I know my parents were in the wrong on a lot of things, and yes... that makes them dumbasses. They played favorites, they hit or yelled when they could have just talked, they made me feel unwelcome in my own skin.

It's a major league derail by this point, but please realize that the same approach is not going to work for everyone. Your parents could have raised me the same way they raised you, doing everything the same way, and I would turn out your total opposite.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Thats what im saying. The problem is you didn't have structure. If you would have had some form of structure you would have had respect for your parents. I'm not saying that you should respect your parents no matter what. Im saying its the parents job to demand respect, and by doing that they need to set up an environment that allows the kid to learn how to be a productive member of society. This cannot be done if there is no structure and discipline in the home.

Okay. Well, Jenn. I respect your position, I just think that IF ANYONE SHOULD SPANK A CHILD it should be the parent. It's only right IF it has to be done. Why let a complete strange beat on your kids? That thought just kinda pisses me off