This is true, but why just the theater? It is wise to be prepared, but foolish to prepare for the last attack.
You're armed in the Colorado theater, what do you do?
- Thread starter Bastiat's The Law
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This is true, but why just the theater? It is wise to be prepared, but foolish to prepare for the last attack.
Acala
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I don't need a flashlight in daylight. And my normal carry gun of the moment (H&K p7) doesn't have a laser.
Prior service USMC here.
For those who have never been gassed with CS, it's a bitch but manageable. The key is to just not freak out, and to do that it requires training and knowing the effects it will have on you so you aren't surprised when one pops off next to you.
For those who say they would draw and make a headshot or some such - you have obviously never been in a firefight (this is, in actuality, a good thing). When the SHTF, your fight or flight response kicks in. And I have seen people freeze up a good quarter of the time. Not only that, no matter which response you have (stay & fight, run & get away) your body will release a supersized cocktail of endorphins into your blood stream - most notably adrenaline. Your aim will be affected considerably by this, as will your ability to reload.
Good on you guys for wanting to stand your ground (as you should), but let's be realistic. Know yourself and seek self improvement, amirite?
For those who have never been gassed with CS, it's a bitch but manageable. The key is to just not freak out, and to do that it requires training and knowing the effects it will have on you so you aren't surprised when one pops off next to you.
For those who say they would draw and make a headshot or some such - you have obviously never been in a firefight (this is, in actuality, a good thing). When the SHTF, your fight or flight response kicks in. And I have seen people freeze up a good quarter of the time. Not only that, no matter which response you have (stay & fight, run & get away) your body will release a supersized cocktail of endorphins into your blood stream - most notably adrenaline. Your aim will be affected considerably by this, as will your ability to reload.
Good on you guys for wanting to stand your ground (as you should), but let's be realistic. Know yourself and seek self improvement, amirite?
Athan
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The thing is the tear gas really ****s things up in that situation. Second since he had body armor, you also may need AP rounds in a spare magazines just to nail the dude if you don't get a clean headshot. The guy that did this was very methodical. He is definitely not insane. He knew what he was doing and how to do it. I also heard he was a Black Bloc member from OWS and probably a anarchist or socialist/communist revolutionary.
I'm not going to think of gas masks the same way that's for sure.
I'm not going to think of gas masks the same way that's for sure.
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Let's suspend reality for a moment and ignore the surprise, confusion and flight or fight effects.
With a solo gunman in that circumstance, rushing him from behind might be the best course of action. He can't look all directions at once. The people doing the rushing just need to be close enough to close the distance without him being able to turn and fire. Multiple people would need to get involved. The darkness would help. Someone would probably get shot. But it would work, and work well. Everyone running or hiding just makes it a simple shooting gallery for the shooter. Everyone attacking the shooter at once makes it impossible for the shooter to continue.
Of course that takes presence of mind, which means knowing in advance what you will do. This is the situation on airplanes now. Every able bodied man looks around the plane and works out in his mind what he would do if someone tries something. Since 9/11, anyone going crazy on the plane is instantly taken down by multiple people. And it can't just be one person trying to cover a long distance in a well-lit open area. People have tried that during robberies and been killed.
Pericles
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First general principle is seek cover/concealment and acquire more situational awareness. Depending on how close you are to the shooter will determine how much time you have to do this.
People will instinctively run from the shooter - you have to let them get out of the way before you can do anything anyway.
Assess the shooter's capability against you own, and then develop the course of action - you may be totally over matched and have to withdraw, or you may have a path toward negating the threat.
In any case, the following will probably be proved: Of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will serve primarily as targets for the enemy. Nine will be real fighters, and we are lucky to have them. Our success in battle depends upon their efforts. And one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and will bring the other back alive.
People will instinctively run from the shooter - you have to let them get out of the way before you can do anything anyway.
Assess the shooter's capability against you own, and then develop the course of action - you may be totally over matched and have to withdraw, or you may have a path toward negating the threat.
In any case, the following will probably be proved: Of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will serve primarily as targets for the enemy. Nine will be real fighters, and we are lucky to have them. Our success in battle depends upon their efforts. And one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and will bring the other back alive.
youngbuck
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Drop down, crawl to close distance, wait for an opportunity, attempt to take head shots and keep shooting. Even with armor, the bullets will be disorienting, and if I've closed enough distance by crawling and while shooting, I can go hand-to-hand once my mag is empty.
GunnyFreedom
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I wasn't going to respond here, but what the hell.
1st thing drop to the deck and fast-crawl towards the aisle away from the gunfire. Stop 2-3 seats from the aisle and peek through the gaps in the seats, look for the muzzle flashes, assess the situation. Note the presence of a gas mask and file under reduced visibility. See tactical gear and try to decide if ordinary bulletproof vest or trauma plate vest, recognize that CS gas distorts visibility and I may not be able to tell. Assess weapon type(s) and try to determine ammo loadout.
Consider that his AR appears to have holosights, my carry pistol's tritium sights advantage is negated. No idea what sort of pistol sights, his shotgun sights probably unaugmented.
While he is still on the opposite side of the theater, fast crawl down the aisle about 4 rows forward and slide back into another row. Draw weapon, remain under concealment 2-3 seats from aisle, keep peeking through the seat gaps. If he points his weapon at my position, hug the deck. If I catch the reload, then count rounds after the reload. 28 or 30 (probably 30) and move forward a couple rows whenever his line of sight is more than 90 degrees out from my position. Wait for the approach to the near side and count rounds 24..25..26..27..28..29..30 The instant #30 reports (or he drops the mag after #28), remove from concealment start to close the distance, if I can't close from the periphery where he can't see me through the gas mask, then try to close the distance fast with my weapon drawn. If I've managed to get 6 rows forward without being spotted, then I'm already going to be very close to him when I start closing.
Note if he drops the AR and goes for the pistol or the shotgun, take a knee and quick double tap the chest, and while he is stunned from the impact trauma take the extra half-second to line up a shot in the head. If he's faster at raising an alternate weapon (or reloading) than I expect then fire five to eight rounds center-mass on the run and duck and roll back into concealment or right into the guys legs depending on how close I am.
Other factors to account for which may change everything:
Theater was very crowded. Ability to fast-crawl down rows under concealment may be degraded. Ability to fast-crawl down aisles may be degraded. Ability to sprint to close the distance to the target may be degraded. If people are still running around all crazy and random, there may not be a clear line of fire before or behind the target.
Bottom line:
One can only guess on what to do without knowing the theater layout and the precise situation at hand. A million random factors can change your entire battle plan on a moment's notice. Pericles advice on first achieving cover or concealment and then gaining full situational awareness is the most critical step, and will always the the most important factor between success or failure. jdcole's advice about adrenaline screwing with your precision and accuracy are also directly on point, which is why you want to seriously close the distance as much as you safely can. From 10 foot while the target is fumbling with a magazine or trying to reach for his shotgun it's a lot easier to take a headshot than at 30 foot with active fire on your position. Finally, the key to surviving and overcoming (winning the encounter) is flexibility. If you have to plan all this out ahead of time and then when something screws up you are lost while you try to figure out what to do next, you are pretty much dead.
A real battle plan would not be remotely as detailed as I laid out above, it would simply be "Conceal, assess situation, identify opportunity, close distance, engage. Repeat if necessary." I only went through the additional details above because most folks here would not understand how to deploy that outline. In this case, the basic outline would be pretty static, but HOW to achieve the separate components would be very dynamic on an instant-to-instant basis. Maximum flexibility is the key. Flow like water, able to instantly divert around any obstacle, but inevitably flowing downhill. The "Conceal, assess, identify, close, engage. Repeat." framework is the "downhill" while the lump of people preventing you from moving down this row is the obstacle. In a firefight, nothing is given.
1st thing drop to the deck and fast-crawl towards the aisle away from the gunfire. Stop 2-3 seats from the aisle and peek through the gaps in the seats, look for the muzzle flashes, assess the situation. Note the presence of a gas mask and file under reduced visibility. See tactical gear and try to decide if ordinary bulletproof vest or trauma plate vest, recognize that CS gas distorts visibility and I may not be able to tell. Assess weapon type(s) and try to determine ammo loadout.
Consider that his AR appears to have holosights, my carry pistol's tritium sights advantage is negated. No idea what sort of pistol sights, his shotgun sights probably unaugmented.
While he is still on the opposite side of the theater, fast crawl down the aisle about 4 rows forward and slide back into another row. Draw weapon, remain under concealment 2-3 seats from aisle, keep peeking through the seat gaps. If he points his weapon at my position, hug the deck. If I catch the reload, then count rounds after the reload. 28 or 30 (probably 30) and move forward a couple rows whenever his line of sight is more than 90 degrees out from my position. Wait for the approach to the near side and count rounds 24..25..26..27..28..29..30 The instant #30 reports (or he drops the mag after #28), remove from concealment start to close the distance, if I can't close from the periphery where he can't see me through the gas mask, then try to close the distance fast with my weapon drawn. If I've managed to get 6 rows forward without being spotted, then I'm already going to be very close to him when I start closing.
Note if he drops the AR and goes for the pistol or the shotgun, take a knee and quick double tap the chest, and while he is stunned from the impact trauma take the extra half-second to line up a shot in the head. If he's faster at raising an alternate weapon (or reloading) than I expect then fire five to eight rounds center-mass on the run and duck and roll back into concealment or right into the guys legs depending on how close I am.
Other factors to account for which may change everything:
Theater was very crowded. Ability to fast-crawl down rows under concealment may be degraded. Ability to fast-crawl down aisles may be degraded. Ability to sprint to close the distance to the target may be degraded. If people are still running around all crazy and random, there may not be a clear line of fire before or behind the target.
Bottom line:
One can only guess on what to do without knowing the theater layout and the precise situation at hand. A million random factors can change your entire battle plan on a moment's notice. Pericles advice on first achieving cover or concealment and then gaining full situational awareness is the most critical step, and will always the the most important factor between success or failure. jdcole's advice about adrenaline screwing with your precision and accuracy are also directly on point, which is why you want to seriously close the distance as much as you safely can. From 10 foot while the target is fumbling with a magazine or trying to reach for his shotgun it's a lot easier to take a headshot than at 30 foot with active fire on your position. Finally, the key to surviving and overcoming (winning the encounter) is flexibility. If you have to plan all this out ahead of time and then when something screws up you are lost while you try to figure out what to do next, you are pretty much dead.
A real battle plan would not be remotely as detailed as I laid out above, it would simply be "Conceal, assess situation, identify opportunity, close distance, engage. Repeat if necessary." I only went through the additional details above because most folks here would not understand how to deploy that outline. In this case, the basic outline would be pretty static, but HOW to achieve the separate components would be very dynamic on an instant-to-instant basis. Maximum flexibility is the key. Flow like water, able to instantly divert around any obstacle, but inevitably flowing downhill. The "Conceal, assess, identify, close, engage. Repeat." framework is the "downhill" while the lump of people preventing you from moving down this row is the obstacle. In a firefight, nothing is given.
GunnyFreedom
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Lasers, like tracers, work both ways. Particularly in a darkened room filled with CS, you will want your laser and flashlight turned OFF. The laser will point directly at you, and the light will make it HARDER to see (due to the CS cloud) not easier. Something like tritium sights would be the optimal accessory in that situation.
Bastiat's The Law
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Goes both ways, but he'd probably know your general direction without the laser sight anyway. In the dark with smoke I'd probably opt for the laser sighting.
bunklocoempire
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Nightmare.
Assuming armed with what we have and no easy exit:
After realizing something was out of whack, I'd get wifey on the ground and seek out the closest possible concealment -preferably cover.
From our day to day living, both wifey and me will start moving if we sense something is awry. It doesn't necessarily have to be a life and death shooter situation. Something can be dropping to the floor, tipping over, etc., we do move on it. As bad as it is I don't think this situation would freeze us.
I would definitely want to see what the shooter was doing from as safe a place as possible.
I'd HAVE to know who I was shooting at and who else was in the close vicinity of the intended target.
Yes, even to the point of not shooting.:o (there isn't really an emticon that describes that)
I don't have a laser site or a tactical light for my pistol, but I do have night sites and I'm not too shabby with low light conditions. They work for me. Maybe not the best for aiming in a smokey theater, but better for concealment? Maybe I'm wrong on that.
This theater situation is unique and pretty dynamic. I guess it comes down to how fast and accurate you could get a shot off vs waiting for an opportunity to get a shot off. Comments on the sights issue? Would be happy for the input. We do have high power tactical hand held lights with the strobes around the house.
I guess the best route is to always have the tools at your disposal with the choice to utilize them or not.
Having identified the target, and assessing who or what was around it, I would take the best shot(s) I could manage, from anywhere in the theater until the attack was stopped.
With a pistol, I would find it... ahem.. difficult to approach the target if it had it's sights on me. I would approach from a blind side if possible, and hold ground if not.
Center of mass most likely, head shot if possible. 'Body armor' or not, I'd have to try for any shot to stop the attack.
Always need more practice and training.
Edit: Excellent thread.
Assuming armed with what we have and no easy exit:
After realizing something was out of whack, I'd get wifey on the ground and seek out the closest possible concealment -preferably cover.
From our day to day living, both wifey and me will start moving if we sense something is awry. It doesn't necessarily have to be a life and death shooter situation. Something can be dropping to the floor, tipping over, etc., we do move on it. As bad as it is I don't think this situation would freeze us.
I would definitely want to see what the shooter was doing from as safe a place as possible.
I'd HAVE to know who I was shooting at and who else was in the close vicinity of the intended target.
Yes, even to the point of not shooting.:o (there isn't really an emticon that describes that)
I don't have a laser site or a tactical light for my pistol, but I do have night sites and I'm not too shabby with low light conditions. They work for me. Maybe not the best for aiming in a smokey theater, but better for concealment? Maybe I'm wrong on that.
This theater situation is unique and pretty dynamic. I guess it comes down to how fast and accurate you could get a shot off vs waiting for an opportunity to get a shot off. Comments on the sights issue? Would be happy for the input. We do have high power tactical hand held lights with the strobes around the house.
I guess the best route is to always have the tools at your disposal with the choice to utilize them or not.
Having identified the target, and assessing who or what was around it, I would take the best shot(s) I could manage, from anywhere in the theater until the attack was stopped.
With a pistol, I would find it... ahem.. difficult to approach the target if it had it's sights on me. I would approach from a blind side if possible, and hold ground if not.
Center of mass most likely, head shot if possible. 'Body armor' or not, I'd have to try for any shot to stop the attack.
Always need more practice and training.
Edit: Excellent thread.
Last edited:
chudrockz
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Yessir. I have night sights on my Glock 30 but am more inclined than I've been in quite some time to toss on the Crimson Trace laser.
GunnyFreedom
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If not for the CS gas you might be OK with the laser. With the CS gas it will just tell the bad guy where to concentrate fire. Ever used a laser pointer in a smoky room?
presence
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this^^^
Body Armor will/may save your life... but 4 shots to the chest is going to take you out of the fight. Besides... I doubt I would have noticed the armor. Firing or not, loaded or not... you point a gun at me or my family and I stop blinking while I contemplate your execution.
presence
Bruno
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Fact is, most people would be disoriented and scared senseless the moment they started seeing bodies fall. I've acted bravely in some situations, and less bravely in others. I'd know I would protect my family, and I'd like to think I would risk my life to save those of others I don't know if I had the chance.
I've never had weapons or military training, and have never been in combat to know how I would react. Given all the chaos and his body armor though, an effective tackle to the ground attempting to dislodge the weapon may have actually been the best. You shoot at him and hit armor or miss, he turns and you are dead. You wait for an opportunity where his back is turned or his focus is elsewhere, tackle and take him down, pin him as best you can, and hope others join in to help you to secure him and his weapons. I'm a small guy at 150 but have taken big guys down back when I was a bartender (some high school wrestling skillz came in handy), and once on the ground, help was on the way.
But if I were an expert marksman, I'd perhaps rethink that whole plan, I'm only a decent shot at a moving target, and never when pumped full of adrenaline and fear like I would be in that situation.
I've never had weapons or military training, and have never been in combat to know how I would react. Given all the chaos and his body armor though, an effective tackle to the ground attempting to dislodge the weapon may have actually been the best. You shoot at him and hit armor or miss, he turns and you are dead. You wait for an opportunity where his back is turned or his focus is elsewhere, tackle and take him down, pin him as best you can, and hope others join in to help you to secure him and his weapons. I'm a small guy at 150 but have taken big guys down back when I was a bartender (some high school wrestling skillz came in handy), and once on the ground, help was on the way.
But if I were an expert marksman, I'd perhaps rethink that whole plan, I'm only a decent shot at a moving target, and never when pumped full of adrenaline and fear like I would be in that situation.
phill4paul
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I'm giving a +rep for honesty. Knowing yourself and your limitations are seldom admitted on the interwebz.
angelatc
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That's our future though. He believed the government would help them better than he could.
angelatc
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I think she was saying not all men are cowards.
Bruno
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When I was 16 or so, the restaurant where I worked had a fire start in the dining area. The place was mostly empty, but as the flames quickly spread, a guy next to me jumped over a chair in the aisle as he panicked and bolted for the door to escape the fire, leaving his pregnant fellow diner behind to fend for herself.
Agreed. Definitely do NOT do that.
