'Yeah, I shot the dog. What the f--- you gonna do about it?'

[osan]

No, language is everything. There's sign language, there's French, English, Swahili, none of which dogs can do. It's not just the language barrier either. Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours only in a different language. The truth is that their lives and thought processes are barely a fraction as complex as ours. They are incapable of understanding us no matter what. That's science speaking. I don't rule anything out, but as Ron Paul would say, this is about as close to ruling it out as I can get without speaking in absolute terms.

Dear God... where DID you go to school? They need to be spanked for what they have done here.

Your view of language in the sense of the means of communication is narrow. You cite "science" but I am not sure you know what it is in fuller measure. Are you a trained scientist? I am, in physics and computer science. I have dealt closely with "science" all my life and have studied the philosophy of science not only alone but under the tutelage of K. D. Irani (see kdirani.com) and Martin Tamney, both from the Dept. of Philosophy at the City University of New York. I have lived most of my life way down in the rabbit hole and have come to some fair to middling understanding of what science is, and is not - and of the sorts of things to which is can be effectively applied, as well as its limitations even there.

There are many things we can learn about dogs through scientific method, but that to which you refer even if only by implication is not one of them. One cannot understand the internal personal experience of a dog without making a substantial set of assumptions, any number of which may be wrong. To say that science has spoken and "proves" that a dog experiences this and does not feel that is preposterous in the extreme. I would add that there is NO scientific experiement that can be devised to prove intent, and likewise, internal experience. I am nearly confident in asserting that you have no idea what a dog's internal, private experience of life it.

And let us bear in mind that negative assertions cannot be proven save in those cases where a necessarily extant and exclusive compliment can be shown to exist. If you can prove the one and the exclusive nature, then you have disproved the negative. Other than that, there is no other possible way. There is no proving what a dog thinks, save only in the most ham-fisted ways and understanding is therefore and perforce precarious at best. We can't even decipher the minds of other human beings. Do you think for a moment that anyone understands the inner world of men like Jeff Dahmer in anything but the most conceptually removed manner? Then what of dogs and cats?

I could go on for a long while on the philosophical points demonstrating just how mistaken you are on these points, but I suspect that it would be a waste of time. Believe as you wish, of course. I would have it no other way, but I would respectfully suggest you open your mind a bit and try to dig a little deeper down that rabbit hole. Once you go past a barrier that your stated positions clearly indicate you have yet to breach, one's perspectives on things alter profoundly and broadly. I can tell you this from first-hand experience. And the good bit in all of it is you don't have to be a rocket surgeon to attain the goal - only the desire and determination are needed. Were it otherwise I'd still be up top, somewhere, unable to find my ass with both hands and a flashlight. This is just another example of God's generosity - we are almost all of is gifted with the ability to see things that are worth seeing - things that broaden our horizons and wisen us just enough to make a real difference in our own lives as well as those of others if we so choose to render help.

It's not a box, it's reality.

There's your problem - you think you know reality. Oh ho ho...

There's a fine line between closed-mindedness and refusing to believe a lie.

I agree with this, and would point out that you may benefit from heeding your own observation.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Dogs aren't carrying out lives as complex as ours..

Well. The thing with dogs is that they don't reason. They simply react. Reason, in terms of humans, is fudged up by morality. "Complex" as you mention.

I have 6 working dogs at the moment and have had many others in years past. I'd say that, in our natural human state, dogs understand us just fine. Of course, I don't view morality as a natural phenomenon though. These are social constructs which contradict the natural drive that occurs in nature. And, yes...it is a very complex and quirky barrier in nature, this moral complexity, and does serve as a theoretical "language" barrier.

Dogs react. They don't reason. Pack structure equates to family values. Although contradictory because of man's artificial/socially manufactured evolution that removes him from nature. Which is simply my opinion. Nothing else.

 

[Origanalist]

Well, I like dogs.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Forgive me, but that is just retarded. I assume you would do the same for a human, yes? Any human? If you had to choose, you would choose the human, right? Right?

Also, you wouldn't face jail time. You would be dead before you knew it. Are you willing to die for a facking animal?

First of all, this guy is a Hitler-apologist, so I wouldn't expect much reason out of him. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest by this man valuing human life over a dog's life.

That said, I'm not about to go kill a cop because they abused someone's liberty halfway around the country. Its not my place, anymore than its the United States' place to deal with tyranny in Iraq, or whatever (I know the US is tyrannical in its own ways, but that's not the point). If someone who I knew had a crime committed against them by a cop and asked me to avenge them, you might have a point, but I don't think its my duty to avenge just any person in the country who has a crime committed against them.

As for dogs, I don't like 'em at all and I still agree with what FSU says about being willing to shoot a cop who killed a hypothetical dog of mine (I do NOT agree with his insinuation that it is just as bad or worse for a cop to kill a dog as it is a human.) I don't think that its hypocrtical to put yourself and your own family first. Maybe its wrong, but its not hypocritical. And there really is a difference in somebody doing something to you VS to somebody else.

Exceptions are the reason we got where we are.

I'm as angry as anyone here, but too many of you lose your heads and advocate torture or going ape-shit on a cop who shoots a dog, yet you say nothing about the cop that kills or tortures a human to death. What is this sickness?

I'm really not sure where you get this from.

I'm morally opposed to torture period, I'm with Ron Paul and Laurence Vance on this one being a moral no brainer. Killing someone can act as a deterrent or be a necessary act in order to prevent someone from doing evil in the future, but I don't see any reason for torture, ever. I can understand the desire for revenge, but ultimately I believe that's wrong.

That said, I do believe any badged official who commits a crime (Any crime) against a civilian should be punished by death, for a couple of reasons:

1. They are given, by law, the moral right to aggress, and civilians are not given the legal right to retaliate. All such laws are wrong, of course. A cop who engages in a drug raid is no better than an armed burglar, and it isn't immoral to treat them the same way. However, it is illegal. If a civilian harasses you, you can defend yourself and get away with it (Well, in at least some parts of the country) but generally not with cops. The cops also know the law will generally let them go.

2. They are, in effect, at war with the people. Now, there might be a few "good cops": there are certainly some that mean well, but those would certainly not go BEYOND what the law requires when it comes to aggression (Incidentally, I would certainly argue that those who aggress to the level that the law requires are still bad, but if they go beyond, there is no possible arguments for ignorance.)

Being in a position of authority, whether real or imagined, makes the crime significantly worse. Kind of like how rape is always wrong, but its even worse if its your own child... or a schoolteacher to a student. Its really hard to argue with that point. I suppose its possible to argue that killing them might be too harsh, but I don't think it is. After all, they were in a position of authority (Whether real or imagined isn't the point: I'd agree it ain't rational, but their position of "authority" is legally protected) and they used that authority, the protection of the mightiest gang on the planet (the US government) to protect them in doing so. Frankly, I can't think of anything more sick than doing that, even if the crime they try to get away with is relatively minor (dog-killing... as compared to murder.)

(Note that "relatively" is the key word here. I'm not saying it actually is minor, just minor compared to murder.)

How very strange. He was giving a scenario of someone beating his dog for no good reason and you appear to be condoning the person who would do such a despicable thing. Very strange indeed.

I think there's a difference between "hitting" a dog and beating on them. I'm somewhat afraid of dogs, especially big ones that jump. My grandma's dog jumps on me, and while I verbally command her to stop first, sometimes she doesn't. I've hit her before to get her off of me, but I didn't "beat" her. Was that wrong? Maybe. She wasn't actually harming me. But hitting her a single time to get her off of me, and "beating" her would be completely different.

All that said, I don't really agree with animal rights, at least not to the point where I think they should be codified into law. We kill and eat animals so "consent" is really a moot point when it comes to them. I'd say that someone who beats their dog is morally sick because they make an animal needlessly suffer, but I don't think violence (against a person) is the way to handle it. Of course, beating someone else's dog is damaging their property and is another issue entirely.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I think there's a difference between "hitting" a dog and beating on them.

Not really. They're both impractical. You should never hit your dog. Ever.

Here. Watch nature at work. Just skip to 2:00. It's a simple correction from mom. A learning experience for junior. One he'll surely remember.

 

[phill4paul]

Dogs react. They don't reason.

I've watched dogs thoroughly confused by a situation come to some sort of understanding. To take what is known, what is felt and what is sensed and come up with a course of action. If this is not reasoning then I don't know what is. I've seen many animals do this in an unfamiliar environment.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Even the most die-hard statist is worth more than a dog.

I agree, but if someone tries to damage your property, you have a right to take them out. That's probably not ideal if the alternative is to make them face the justice system later on. On the other hand, if the alternative is that they are legally protected and continue to be allowed to destroy other people's property, you're probably doing every other (innocent) human being a favor by taking them out.

Personally,I generally wouldn't kill anyone over property, but if a cop actually broke into my house and pulled a gun on me, I wouldn't worry about whether his intent was to kill me or my hypothetical dog. If I had a gun (I don't ATM), I'd take him out just like I would any other armed robber who broke into my house.

Ok, but how do you measure that passion and compare it to someone else's. More to the point, why does it matter how much conviction he had?

I think the thing here is that Hitler was actually evil, (unregenerate, and a mass murderer) while a dog has no soul or morality at all. Its not even realy that you can say Hitler is "Worth more" than the dog, its a completely different measuring stick. A dog has no inherent value (other than economic) but might have emotional value to the owner. (A wedding ring might similarly have emotional appeal to the owner, but has no such value INHERENTLY.) Hitler, on the other hand, was a mass murderer who deserved death, and who's death would have been good for humanity. Its not really the same thing.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Not really. They're both impractical. You should never hit your dog. Ever.

That's not really the point I'm arguing here. I'm saying its not the same thing, not that you actually should. I'm not arguing the point of whether its ever actually OK to hit your dog one way or another.

You should never steal, but it would still be absurd to say stealing and murder are the same thing.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I've watched dogs thoroughly confused by a situation come to some sort of understanding. To take what is known, what is felt and what is sensed and come up with a course of action. If this is not reasoning then I don't know what is. I've seen many animals do this in an unfamiliar environment.

Yeah, me too. Weird, huh? I do wonder sometimes. Are you talking about during human interaction or among themselves?

 

[Natural Citizen]

That's not really the point I'm arguing here. I'm saying its not the same thing, not that you actually should. I'm not arguing the point of whether its ever actually OK to hit your dog one way or another.

You should never steal, but it would still be absurd to say stealing and murder are the same thing.

I know. I was just trying to separate the logic or mechanisms that influence logic from humans and animals. I wasn't saying not to hit your dog because it's not OK. That's a moral judgement. which is irrelevant when we think of correcting dogs. hitting them just doesn't work is what i was saying. You can "hit" them when soliciting drive but it's a different kind of hitting. I don't know, ff. Was a fail, I suppose. Disregard.

 

[phill4paul]

Yeah, me too. Weird, huh? I do wonder sometimes. Are you talking about during human interaction or among themselves?

I'm talking unseen observer and alone. Human interaction will skew their reactions. As will pack. Follow a puppy in the woods. Watch when he encounters different things. There is a primordal instinct. One which we humans share. There is also a reasoning. One which is known, felt and sensed vs. what is presented and how to deal with it. Much like humans.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I'm talking unseen observer and alone. Human interaction will skew their reactions. As will pack. Follow a puppy in the woods. Watch when he encounters different things. There is a primordal instinct. One which we humans share. There is also a reasoning. One which is known, felt and sensed vs. what is presented and how to deal with it. Much like humans.

Oh, I see. I've seen this. I think they're more in tune with nature than humans and react to it naturally but like I said, it's just my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. Humans don't really react to nature as a whole. I don't think that they interact with it naturally either. I think their ability to reason gets in the way. It is similar though but much different at the same time.

Who knows. It sure is interesting though, I agree. I know that I've changed my mind a few times on it. Will probably do so again eventually.

 

[phill4paul]

Not really. They're both impractical. You should never hit your dog. Ever.

I'm not a big fan of this though it does have it's place. A pitbull bitch, who's ill temper was caused by tumors and skin condition (no fault of her own), went after a new addition to the family (dog not human). I hit her square between the eyes sitting her on her ass. Damn near broke my hand. She never went after the new addition again. The new addition was my dog and me to the pack of my lady. The dog wasn't right in the head because of her infirmities (tumors and skin condition ) and should have been put down. After attacks on other dogs in the house I convinced my missus to put her down. It culminated when she attacked her son (dog) during a get together. Three grown men were pulling from each of their hind legs trying to separate them. Unsuccessfully. I grabbed the water hose and put it full blast up her nose. Bingo. So I finally convinced the missus to put her down but her ex did an end run with the vet. Took her home, spent $6k on trying to fix her up and called and cried because he had to put her down because she fucked up his dog while he was at work. Realize, none of her aggression was innate. It was caused only by her pain.

Still, it is a terrible training method. I would not have used it if it were not a serious situation.

 

[chudrockz]

Dog bless AMERICA, some day I'll be able to consistently put pictures on a forum without being dazed and confused for an hour before giving up.

THERE. It only took three cups of coffee and four hours or so after waking up to do that!! Sheesh.

 

[chudrockz]

It seems that picture goes away if I shut my email. I really, really hate my lack of computer knowledge sometimes. Anyhow.

 

[Suzanimal]

It seems that picture goes away if I shut my email. I really, really hate my lack of computer knowledge sometimes. Anyhow.

I use imgur.com, it's pretty easy, just follow their directions.
Cute dog.

 

[LibertyEagle]

tinypic is good too.

 

[chudrockz]

Thanks for the recommendations on picture posting and such. I'll have to refer back to this when I'm stumped the next time I try to post one. Say in a day or two.

In the meantime, I made the mistake a few hours ago of actually visiting a very rabid anti pit bull page on Facebook. Wow, there is some hatred out there. They LITERALLY believe that EVERY single one is just biding their time, acting sweet, till they see red and rip out everyone's throat. One person said it's a mental disorder akin to pedophilia to want to have a pitbull sleeping in bed with you. I feel sooo sorry for people like that.

 

[Suzanimal]

Thanks for the recommendations on picture posting and such. I'll have to refer back to this when I'm stumped the next time I try to post one. Say in a day or two.

In the meantime, I made the mistake a few hours ago of actually visiting a very rabid anti pit bull page on Facebook. Wow, there is some hatred out there. They LITERALLY believe that EVERY single one is just biding their time, acting sweet, till they see red and rip out everyone's throat. One person said it's a mental disorder akin to pedophilia to want to have a pitbull sleeping in bed with you. I feel sooo sorry for people like that.

My brother has some kind of Pit mix (he got him at some rescue)and he looks vicious, if Mike Tyson were a dog that's what he would look like. At first I like WTF! but he is actually a really sweet dog. I love their faces, they're very expressive. I have a blind, lazy 14 year old Cocker Mix...who likes baths in the jacuzzi tub, I need to get a pic of him with jets going and the bubbles all foamy, he loves it, it's like he's a puppy again. Here's one of him after bath...

 

[chudrockz]

My brother has some kind of Pit mix (he got him at some rescue)and he looks vicious, if Mike Tyson were a dog that's what he would look like. At first I like WTF! but he is actually a really sweet dog. I love their faces, they're very expressive. I have a blind, lazy 14 year old Cocker Mix...who likes baths in the jacuzzi tub, I need to get a pic of him with jets going and the bubbles all foamy, he loves it, it's like he's a puppy again. Here's one of him after bath...

That's super cute!

And yeah, most of the pits I have met have been very sweet. Only one that I can think of ATM was kind of "neutral," and I've never met one yet that was mean.

Last night I was sitting cross-legged on the floor in the basement scooping out litter boxes (we also have nine rescued cats), and she came down to sit next to me while I was doing it. At one point when I had my arm down, she stood and gently tried to get in my lap. I told her, "No, Snowflake, you can't sit on my lap right now, I have to finish cleaning the litter boxes first!" Her FACE just looked like she was crushed, and she backed out from under my arm and started to walk away, till I called her back and she flew at me tail wagging and tongue licking lick crazy. She's a really great dog.