WTF? Huckabee: The Constitution Should Be Amended To Conform To The Word Of God

The majority of the Founding Fathers were Deists. They held the agnostic "clockmaker" view of God. God made the Universe, and then left it to run itself. Under this view, mankind has totally inalienable free will. Thus only an act that infringes upon another's inalienable free will is "immoral." This is what is laid out within the Federalist Papers, the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The Bill of Rights expounds upon this.

Any amendment added beyond these first 10 that infringes upon the inalienable free will of mankind is unconstitutionally sound. Likewise, any attempt to amend the constitution to support a "Christian" moral construct is unconstitutionally sound under the infringement on my free will to live a life that is immoral by Christian standards but does not infringe upon anyone else's free will. It is also unconstitutionally sound by the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

If you support Ron Paul, you are presumably a libertarian constitutionalist, and should recognize what I have laid out here as pretty much fact. I don't understand why there is any argument to the contrary.
 
Ever see a dog pee to mark his territory? They smell their property rights.

Property rights derive from our territorial instincts.

All higher animals know they need a certain amount of territory in order to survive.

That's a good one, pee on a tree is a right.

You don't get it do you. Rights are immaterial, universal, invariant, abstract entities. Pee on a tree is material in nature but I would not call that a right. Mabey I can help you a little, are you saying that rights are electro-chemical reactions in animals brains?
 
But it does answer the question of how you can have abstract, universal, invariant and objective laws such as laws of morality within a particular persons worldview.
As I said, if one is satisfied with a universal answer that attributes everything to "God's character", "Allah's will", etc. then there is nothing to debate.

My point about the evolution of morality is that often it takes time to arrive at a moral position, as with universal adult suffrage. There was a time when universal suffrage was morally unacceptable in many people's worldview, but the zeitgeist has (fortunately) changed since then. Where did this change come from, if not from a constructed sense of what is fair and just? If we get our moral position on universal suffrage from God, why did it take so long for us to interpret His word in the current manner?

Can I get anything out of you other than bare assertions? Do you have any science projects that I can repeat and keep getting the same results as to when something is moral and when it becomes immoral?
Regardless of where we stand on our conception of morality, I'm sure you'll agree that experimenting with human populations to see how they construct morality is not a very ethical project :D

At any rate, I'm not asserting anything -- I'm merely saying that viewing morality as something that evolves still allows it to have a "direction" in the sense I alluded to. My basis for this belief is the evidence gleaned from the historical record of human societies (see for example "Non-zero" by Robert Wright) -- this isn't a "controlled scientific experiment" that can be repeated, but it is evidence nevertheless.
 
That is one of the most contentious, truly outrageous things I have ever heard a politician say. Particularly a "leading" Presidential candidate.
 
What a Shame

I did not take them out of context... I don't understand revisionists, are they implying that this country was founded as a Christian Nation solely?

I can tell you're a product of the American public school system. You have a very misguided view of the history of our country. Yes, America was founded as a Christian nation, not a secular one! Get your facts straight, please.
 
That's a good one, pee on a tree is a right.

You don't get it do you. Rights are immaterial, universal, invariant, abstract entities. Pee on a tree is material in nature but I would not call that a right. Mabey I can help you a little, are you saying that rights are electro-chemical reactions in animals brains?

All of our thoughts and experiences are "electro-chemical reactions in animals brains" since we are animals and our thoughts and experiences are solely a function of brain activity.

However, we have a vastly evolved brain compared to other animals, especially the cerebral cortex which is involved in abstract reasoning.

Rights exist only in our thoughts, they are manifested when we extend them to others through our actions.

The concept of property stems from our innate instinct to capture and keep territory.

Property rights are the result of our abstract reasoning ability applied to the interpretation of this territorial instinct.

I get it just fine, and no you probably can't help me. But you're welcome to share your opinion.
 
All of our thoughts and experiences are "electro-chemical reactions in animals brains" since we are animals and our thoughts and experiences are solely a function of brain activity.

However, we have a vastly evolved brain compared to other animals, especially the cerebral cortex which is involved in abstract reasoning.

Rights exist only in our thoughts, they are manifested when we extend them to others through our actions.

The concept of property stems from our innate instinct to capture and keep territory.

Property rights are the result of our abstract reasoning ability applied to the interpretation of this territorial instinct.

I get it just fine, and no you probably can't help me. But you're welcome to share your opinion.

I appreciate this reply, my point was that from a Christian perspective rights are more than just electro-chemical reactions in an animals brain. So if someone is going to talk about them in such a way as to make them out to be more than this, they are going to have to assume that the Christian view of reality is correct, making rights something that are inalienable and given to us by a creator.

I just get a little upset when people knock all Christians eventhough they know that Ron Paul is a Christian. I am just standing up for what I and Ron Paul himself believes.

I have respect for those in the Ron Paul campaign that are not Christians. I hope that someday that they will become Christians. I am just trying to get them to realize that making blanket statements about all Christians is unjustified and is also a reversable argument that can be used against their own position as well. Jesus was wise to advise us to know a Christian by their fruits, Huckabee's fruits are rotten to the core, but Ron Paul's fruit is the fruit of a true Christian standing up for the rights of those that have no representation in Washington and we should be glad that he is a Christian.
 
I appreciate this reply, my point was that from a Christian perspective rights are more than just electro-chemical reactions in an animals brain. So if someone is going to talk about them in such a way as to make them out to be more than this, they are going to have to assume that the Christian view of reality is correct, making rights something that are inalienable and given to us by a creator.

I do not ascribe to a Christian perspective with regards to rights. They are inherent in that all humans share a common ancestry, therefore all humans should have rights.
But they do not exist outside our minds.

I just get a little upset when people knock all Christians eventhough they know that Ron Paul is a Christian. I am just standing up for what I and Ron Paul himself believes.

I appreciate that and I understand full well that Ron Paul is a Christian. It is not an issue for me so long as Ron Paul isn't arguing to impose his religion on me (like some of the other candidates seem to want to).

I have respect for those in the Ron Paul campaign that are not Christians. I hope that someday that they will become Christians. I am just trying to get them to realize that making blanket statements about all Christians is unjustified and is also a reversable argument that can be used against their own position as well. Jesus was wise to advise us to know a Christian by their fruits, Huckabee's fruits are rotten to the core, but Ron Paul's fruit is the fruit of a true Christian standing up for the rights of those that have no representation in Washington and we should be glad that he is a Christian.

Not to sound hypocritical, but Amen. Jesus was a tremendously wise man, and I think that so-called militant atheists who attack him, his teachings, his followers (those that are Christ-like in their beliefs, not those who use his name to trick or force others to follow them), or who somehow feel threatened by peaceful religious folks of any persuasion are irrational and often dangerous.

Healthy skepticism and debate is good. Fear-mongering and contumelious language is bad.

I do not seek to impose my beliefs, or lack thereof, on anyone. All peaceful people should be free to believe as they chose and teach their children as they chose, regardless of what I think about the wisdom of those beliefs.

I will fight for your freedom to keep and pass on your beliefs even if I don't share them.

That is why Freedom Brings Us Together :)
 
The majority of the Founding Fathers were Deists. They held the agnostic "clockmaker" view of God. God made the Universe, and then left it to run itself. Under this view, mankind has totally inalienable free will. Thus only an act that infringes upon another's inalienable free will is "immoral." This is what is laid out within the Federalist Papers, the Articles of Confederation, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. The Bill of Rights expounds upon this.

Any amendment added beyond these first 10 that infringes upon the inalienable free will of mankind is unconstitutionally sound. Likewise, any attempt to amend the constitution to support a "Christian" moral construct is unconstitutionally sound under the infringement on my free will to live a life that is immoral by Christian standards but does not infringe upon anyone else's free will. It is also unconstitutionally sound by the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

If you support Ron Paul, you are presumably a libertarian constitutionalist, and should recognize what I have laid out here as pretty much fact. I don't understand why there is any argument to the contrary.

you pretty much summed it up.
 
Theocracy here we come!

If Huck gets elected I'm fairly sure we'll end up living in the People's Republic of Jesusland.
 
That’s right, naturalism IS opposed to supernaturalism, that is why I am asking for a naturalist answer to a supernatural problem, it can’t be done. So stop borrowing morality from us Christians and give me a naturalistic argument that makes sense of absolute and objective moral principles. Morality is emptied of any meaning if it is not absolute and objective.

There are no supernaturalist problems. Morality is only empty to people who say it is empty, yet I've never really heard of people ACTING on that premise. We are built, through an evolutionary process of natural selection, for a general sense of empathy. That ability to empathize with people serves a beneficial trait in group selection. Some people are more bad than good, some people are more good than bad, nobody is perfectly evil, nobody is perfectly good. Morality is defined by the social zeitgeist, and laws are made by a society or group to enforce the current mode. Don't multiply entities unnecessarily.
 
Revolution of the Apes?

All of our thoughts and experiences are "electro-chemical reactions in animals brains" since we are animals and our thoughts and experiences are solely a function of brain activity.

However, we have a vastly evolved brain compared to other animals, especially the cerebral cortex which is involved in abstract reasoning.

Rights exist only in our thoughts, they are manifested when we extend them to others through our actions.

The concept of property stems from our innate instinct to capture and keep territory.

Property rights are the result of our abstract reasoning ability applied to the interpretation of this territorial instinct.

I get it just fine, and no you probably can't help me. But you're welcome to share your opinion.

With all due respect, I just don't understand how or why you are a supporter of Congressman Paul with the thinking you possess, WilliamC. This "rEVOLution" we're engaged in assumes some things that I feel contradict your worldview. If we are nothing but animals evolving in nature, then what's wrong with the "stronger animals" (those empowered in our government presently) controlling the lives of the "weaker animals" through laws and legislation that ultimately come from "electro-chemical processes of the brain?" If we all are animals, then why shouldn't a "pack of animals" (corporations) use their money and power to take over the territory of other "animals" (you know, those "wild beasts" over there in the Middles East whose electrical-chemical synapses in their brain have deemed them as "Muslims")? After all, these "pack of animals" are only living by "survival of the fittest." If we are all animals, then why should us "apes" follow a "stupid piece of paper" called "the Constitution" which doesn't necessarily agree with all of our "animal" instincts because we, as you'll agree, have different ways that our "electrochemical processes" interpret and react to nature?

If property rights are just the results of what the "electrochemical processes" in our brain tell us about territory in nature, then why shouldn't other "animals" who have "evolved" better "electrochemical processes" fight and take over these territories and make them their own property (as we observe with all animals in nature)? If rights only come from our thoughts, then who decides which thought process is the most rational and intelligent to interpret what our rights are?

These are questions I'm just eagerly waiting for you to answer, WilliamC. But don't be surprised if the "electrical-chemical processes" in my brain force me to disagree with you and conclude that you are simply a fool and need to be extinct...
 
I can tell you're a product of the American public school system. You have a very misguided view of the history of our country. Yes, America was founded as a Christian nation, not a secular one! Get your facts straight, please.

Because I don't share your delusion? I understand VERY well the history of our country. I have two degrees from the University of Notre Dame, and a minor in theology. You are not going to convince me that your mother was able to teach you more about this country than the combination of hundreds of professionals across a wide spectrum of beliefs and understandings.

Seriously my friend, my education is no shame.
 
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I'm sure WilliamC has his own take on this, but I thought I'd chime in with my own thoughts too:

If we are nothing but animals evolving in nature, then what's wrong with the "stronger animals" (those empowered in our government presently) controlling the lives of the "weaker animals" through laws and legislation that ultimately come from "electro-chemical processes of the brain?" If we all are animals, then why shouldn't a "pack of animals" (corporations) use their money and power to take over the territory of other "animals" (you know, those "wild beasts" over there in the Middles East whose electrical-chemical synapses in their brain have deemed them as "Muslims")? After all, these "pack of animals" are only living by "survival of the fittest."
With all due respect, that last line is a very naive and simplistic view of animal (and human) life. There's very good evidence to suggest that simple "might-makes-right" strategies do not succeed well with social animals, including higher primates and our species. Instead, a limited form of cooperation is better (from an evolutionary standpoint). I can highly recommend the book I mentioned earlier in this thread -- Non-zero by Robert Wright -- for more on this view. Its a fascinating read!
 
I'm sure WilliamC has his own take on this, but I thought I'd chime in with my own thoughts too:

With all due respect, that last line is a very naive and simplistic view of animal (and human) life. There's very good evidence to suggest that simple "might-makes-right" strategies do not succeed well with social animals, including higher primates and our species. Instead, a limited form of cooperation is better (from an evolutionary standpoint). I can highly recommend the book I mentioned earlier in this thread -- Non-zero by Robert Wright -- for more on this view. Its a fascinating read!

You are exactly correct. The most advantageous strategy in game theory is Tit for Tat or in many highly evolved populations, Tit for Two Tats... empathy and cooperation is built into us, or we simply wouldn't be here. A population that defects wholly defects itself into extinction. Well read Random. The quality of people on these boards is increasing!
 
Quote from Sandra:
Then how could he in good faith pledge to defend the constitution?

Sandra, that is an excellent question, and you deserve a decent answer. Sadly, the answer is not very "decent". In fact, it is evil.

We have allowed government indoctrination centers (sometimes referred to as the "public school system") neglect to even mention Articles I through VII of the United States Constitution.

Therefore, you have dangerous, intellectually vapid morons, running around with a ballot. For example, if you ask most cops what they swore an oath to do when they were commissioned as a "Law Enforcement Officer", they will respond something similar to: "I swore to UPHOLD the law!"

But what they swear to, is to "preserve, protect, and defend the constitution and laws of the United States, and of this (insert state here) State."

What they don't know is, you have to read the Constitution, and understand it previous to swearing to it. And people don't do that. If so, you would never have a cop arrest a person for carrying a handgun in their car without a concealed carry permit, because Article VI, par. II, along with the 2nd Amendment, makes any law claiming to require you to purchase a permit (infringe) to excercise your right to keep and bear arms simply not lawfully constitutional.

Article VI is the Supremacy clause, and it says quite clearly, any law which isn't "in pursuance of" the Constitution is not valid.

Cops will enforce a law which infringes on your freedom of speech, not even knowing that the law they are Upholding, is the wrong one!
 
With all due respect, I just don't understand how or why you are a supporter of Congressman Paul with the thinking you possess, WilliamC.

Well let's see if we can reach some sort of mutual understanding, yes?

This "rEVOLution" we're engaged in assumes some things that I feel contradict your worldview. If we are nothing but animals evolving in nature, then what's wrong with the "stronger animals" (those empowered in our government presently) controlling the lives of the "weaker animals" through laws and legislation that ultimately come from "electro-chemical processes of the brain?"

Because we humans have evolved a brain that allows us to look far beyond the present and contemplate the future consenquences of our actions. Personally, I have no such desire to control the lives of others. Do you?

Since I do not have these views, I am opposed to those who do. Are you?

If we all are animals, then why shouldn't a "pack of animals" (corporations) use their money and power to take over the territory of other "animals" (you know, those "wild beasts" over there in the Middles East whose electrical-chemical synapses in their brain have deemed them as "Muslims")?

Because it is immoral to steal? I don't need religion to tell me I don't want my property stolen, therefore I can empathize with others when their property is stolen. Even if I am part of the "pack" doing the stealing, so long as this type of behaviour is allowed or encouraged there is nothing to prevent the "pack" from someday turning on me.

Besides, I've never claimed that Muslims are any more or less "wild beasts" than anyone else. Do you?

After all, these "pack of animals" are only living by "survival of the fittest."

Methinks you have a different understanding of "survivial of the fittest" than I.

Survivial of the fittest is a tautology. Those that leave the most descendents in the next generation are more fit. For humans, those who leave the most children after they die win, in an evolutionary sense.

No need to automatically assume violence. Sometimes peace and cooperation is a better mechanism for ensuring survivial of your progeny. Nature doesn't care though, all that matters is who has the most children, and grandchildren, and so on.


If we are all animals, then why should us "apes" follow a "stupid piece of paper" called "the Constitution" which doesn't necessarily agree with all of our "animal" instincts because we, as you'll agree, have different ways that our "electrochemical processes" interpret and react to nature?

Well we've come a long way in our intellectual capabilities from our less intelligent ancestors, so we can now see much further into the future than they could. Sometimes it is in our long term best interest not to act on short term impulses. Following a "stupid piece of paper" called "the Constitution" greatly increases the probability of peace and prosperity, which in turn greatly increases the chances that our children will survive and prosper as well, which in turn greatly increases the chances that our extended family will survive and prosper, which in turn greatly increses the chances that our people will survive and prosper, which in turn greatly increases the chances that our species will survive and prosper.

And that's the ultimate goal for me. A free and liberated human society breaking free of the dead-end future of being bound to a single planet, spreading out into the solar system and beyond, forever and ever, until the Universe itself comes to an end.

Sort of like heaven is supposed to be I guess, but without the inconvient fact you have to die to get there.

If property rights are just the results of what the "electrochemical processes" in our brain tell us about territory in nature, then why shouldn't other "animals" who have "evolved" better "electrochemical processes" fight and take over these territories and make them their own property (as we observe with all animals in nature)?

Well obviously many people do just this, as witnessed by the wars and such that we humans engage in. I just don't feel the need, myself, to take from others by force what I can't get by voluntary exchange. Maybe I'm just weird, but do unto others as I would have them do unto me is just plain common sense.



If rights only come from our thoughts, then who decides which thought process is the most rational and intelligent to interpret what our rights are?

For me, I do. I assume you decide this for yourself, but I could be mistaken.


These are questions I'm just eagerly waiting for you to answer, WilliamC. But don't be surprised if the "electrical-chemical processes" in my brain force me to disagree with you and conclude that you are simply a fool and need to be extinct...

Well good luck with that "Theocrat". Those electro-chemical processes also underly a very strong instinct of personal survivial as well, so you'd best sneak up on me or you might not get your wish of making me extinct.

Do you always threaten those you debate with?

Oh, and what's with all the "quotes"? I didn't say most of those things you are quoting, why are you attributing them to me? Simple mistake? Or outright lie?

heh heh.
 
And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day. Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;[I Samuel 8:10-19]
 
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