Would you support a pro-choice liberty candidate?

The personhood bills are problematic, because they don't include any exception for the life of the mother and could possibly ban common forms of birth control. These bills need to be amended to contain an exception for the life of the mother and make it clear that no forms of birth control would be impacted by the bill. The personhood bill in Mississippi would've passed if these changes had been made.

This is exactly why Roe v Wade legalised abortion. In Texas abortion was illegal, except for cases in which the mother's life was risk. That is exactly where the entire anti-abortion argument presented to the Supreme Court collapsed. If the unborn are indeed persons, and do indeed have an unconditional right to life, then there can be no exceptions.
 
I don't like the pro-choice and pro-life labels because there are so many pro-lifers that really aren't (i.e. they still support war or they support and get campaign funds from big corporations like DOW and Monsanto that are aren't helping the war against cancer and genetic defects.)

No, they don't. Corporations cannot donate to candidates. It is (shamefully, in violation of the First Amendment) illegal.
 
Shouldn't IUDs that rip the implanted eggs from the uterus count as abortions?

Yeah, but that's not what I'm talking about. That would be a form of abortion, not contraception. Something like the morning after pill simply prevents the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus to begin with, which I don't consider to be a form of abortion.
 
If the unborn are indeed persons, and do indeed have an unconditional right to life, then there can be no exceptions.

What about an ectopic pregnancy where the baby never makes it to the uterus and doesn't have any chance to survive?
 
I think what we need is for every pro choice person who came into the movement with the bigger picture in mind stick to their guns and go back to their old partisan support wedge issue ways and only vote for pro choice liberty candidates. That way, we can splice up this small group into even smaller voting black and see where that gets us.

That will sure be a winning strategy if you asked me.
 
What about an ectopic pregnancy where the baby never makes it to the uterus and doesn't have any chance to survive?

The question is, does the fetus have a chance of surviving? if yes then any abortion is to be considered as murder and prosecuted to the fullest extent by the law.
 
What about an ectopic pregnancy where the baby never makes it to the uterus and doesn't have any chance to survive?

I think the Catholic position on this is the only truly pro-life position when it comes to sad cases such as ectopic pregnancies:

Whenever an embryo implants in the wrong place, whether in the fallopian tube or in another place like the abdomen, such a pregnancy is called "ectopic" (meaning "out of place"). Ninety-seven percent of all ectopic pregnancies occur within the fallopian tube. Ectopic pregnancy is one of the leading causes of maternal sickness and death in the United States, and presents a formidable challenge to the physician who is trying to help both mother and child.

Of the three commonly performed procedures for addressing ectopic pregnancies, two raise significant moral concerns while the third is morally acceptable.

The first procedure involves a drug called methotrexate, which targets the most rapidly growing cells of the embryo, especially the placenta-like cells which attach the early embryo to the wall of the tube. Some have suggested that methotrexate might preferentially target these placenta-like cells, distinct from the rest of the embryo, so that it could be seen as "indirectly" ending the life of the embryo. Others, however, have noted that these placenta-like cells are in fact a part of the embryo itself (being produced by the embryo, not by the mother), so that the use of methotrexate actually targets a vital organ of the embryo, resulting in his or her death. A significant number of Catholic moralists hold that the use of methotrexate is not morally permissible, because it constitutes a direct attack on the growing child in the tube, and involves a form of direct abortion.

Another morally problematic technique involves cutting along the length of the fallopian tube where the child is embedded and "scooping out" the living body of the child, who dies shortly thereafter. The tube can then be sutured back up. This approach, like the use of methotrexate, leaves the fallopian tube largely intact for possible future pregnancies, but also raises obvious moral objections because it likewise directly causes the death of the child.

Interestingly, both procedures are normally presented to patients exclusive of any moral considerations. They are framed strictly as the means to assure the least damage possible to the mother's reproductive system. Many doctors will admit, however, that these techniques usually leave the fallopian tube scarred, increasing the chances of yet another tubal pregnancy by setting up the conditions for the occurrence to happen again.

About half of the cases of tubal pregnancy will resolve on their own, with the embryo being naturally lost without the need for any intervention. When an ectopic pregnancy does not resolve by itself, a morally acceptable approach would involve removal of the whole section of the tube on the side of the woman’s body where the unborn child is lodged. Although this results in reduced fertility for the woman, the section of tube around the growing child has clearly become pathological, and constitutes a mounting threat with time. This threat is addressed by removal of the tube, with the secondary, and unintended, effect that the child within will then die.

In this situation, the intention of the surgeon is directed towards the good effect (removing the damaged tissue to save the mother's life) while only tolerating the bad effect (death of the ectopic child). Importantly, the surgeon is choosing to act on the tube (a part of the mother's body) rather than directly on the child. Additionally, the child's death is not the means via which the cure occurs. If a large tumor, instead of a baby, were present in the tube, the same curative procedure would be employed. It is tubal removal, not the subsequent death of the baby, that is curative for the mother's condition.

Some say that cutting out a section of the tube with a baby inside is no different than using methotrexate because, in either case, the baby ends up dying. Yet the difference in how the baby dies is, in fact, critical. There is always a difference between killing someone directly and allowing someone to die of indirect causes. We may never directly take the life of an innocent human being, though we may sometimes tolerate the indirect and unintended loss of life that comes with trying to properly address a life-threatening medical situation.

http://www.ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=940
 
The question is, does the fetus have a chance of surviving? if yes then any abortion is to be considered as murder and prosecuted to the fullest extent by the law.

I just see it as an example of killing in self defense. In regards to the murder laws that we have on the books, we make an exception for self defense. Someone doesn't get prosecuted for killing someone if it was done to save their own life. If someone threatens your life, you have the legal right to kill that person. But of course we don't say that the person who got killed "isn't a person." We acknowledge that the person who was killed is still a person, but we allow people to kill in order to save their own lives. So I think that the laws that we have against abortion should be applied in the same way, which means that the only exception to a ban on abortion should be if the mother would likely die if she didn't get an abortion.
 
I just see it as an example of killing in self defense. In regards to the murder laws that we have on the books, we make an exception for self defense. Someone doesn't get prosecuted for killing someone if it was done to save their own life. If someone threatens your life, you have the legal right to kill that person. But of course we don't say that the person who got killed "isn't a person." We acknowledge that the person who was killed is still a person, but we allow people to kill in order to save their own lives. So I think that the laws that we have against abortion should be applied in the same way, which means that the only exception to a ban on abortion should be if the mother would likely die if she didn't get an abortion.

Yes. Or you could also just give her the treatment (e.g. chemotherapy) with the intent of saving her life. The fetus might not survive, but the intent was to save the mother's life, not kill the fetus. Treating the mother also protects the fetus' life because if the mother's life wasn't taken care of, both would die. Around 24 weeks, the fetus can survive outside the womb with artificial lung surfactants, so it could be removed. In the future, the advent of ectogenesis will end the whole dang debate.
 
I just see it as an example of killing in self defense. In regards to the murder laws that we have on the books, we make an exception for self defense. Someone doesn't get prosecuted for killing someone if it was done to save their own life. If someone threatens your life, you have the legal right to kill that person. But of course we don't say that the person who got killed "isn't a person." We acknowledge that the person who was killed is still a person, but we allow people to kill in order to save their own lives. So I think that the laws that we have against abortion should be applied in the same way, which means that the only exception to a ban on abortion should be if the mother would likely die if she didn't get an abortion.

That is a very twisted interpretation of the self defense law, does this mean I can use another human to shield myself from a bullet to defend myself and get away with calling it self defense. Also with you definition, every pregnant woman can say that they are aborting their baby to prevent facing a higher risk of death during pregnancy. The baby shouldn't be punished just because your life is in danger cos his/her life is just as precious and important as yours.

That is the argument a pro life person will make and still be correct.
 
That is a very twisted interpretation of the self defense law, does this mean I can use another human to shield myself from a bullet to defend myself and get away with calling it self defense. Also with you definition, every pregnant woman can say that they are aborting their baby to prevent facing a higher risk of death during pregnancy. The baby shouldn't be punished just because your life is in danger cos his/her life is just as precious and important as yours.

That is the argument a pro life person will make and still be correct.

And when the mother dies, the baby is going to... what?
 
I think the Catholic position on this is the only truly pro-life position when it comes to sad cases such as ectopic pregnancies:

I think I morally agree with the Catholic Church on this, but I don't think a mother should be legally prevented from doing whatever she has to do to protect herself even if it might be wrong.
 
That is a very twisted interpretation of the self defense law, does this mean I can use another human to shield myself from a bullet to defend myself and get away with calling it self defense. Also with you definition, every pregnant woman can say that they are aborting their baby to prevent facing a higher risk of death during pregnancy. The baby shouldn't be punished just because your life is in danger cos his/her life is just as precious and important as yours.

That is the argument a pro life person will make and still be correct.

Almost all of the pro life people I know support an exception for the life of the mother. That's not some kind of pro choice view. As pro lifers, we care about the life of both the mother and the baby. You can't just ignore the life of the mother if you claim to be pro life. About 10% of the American people support a complete ban on abortion in all circumstances, then a certain percentage of us support an exception for the life of the mother, and others support exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. If you add all of those groups together, you get about 50%, which is the entire pro life coalition. If the no exceptions pro lifers are going to insist that they are the only ones who can call themselves pro life, then their goal seems to be to make the pro life movement as small as possible.

In the scenario that I'm presenting, the woman would have to get a written note from a doctor with his signature and perhaps the signature of another doctor, stating that it's medically necessary for her to get an abortion to save her own life. I think abortion should be legal in that situation and that situation only. But it's just extremely rare, so it's really not a huge issue. Over 99% of abortions are performed for reasons that don't involve the life of the mother.
 
Almost all of the pro life people I know support an exception for the life of the mother. That's not some kind of pro choice view. As pro lifers, we care about the life of both the mother and the baby. You can't just ignore the life of the mother if you claim to be pro life. About 10% of the American people support a complete ban on abortion in all circumstances, then a certain percentage of us support an exception for the life of the mother, and others support exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. If you add all of those groups together, you get about 50%, which is the entire pro life coalition. If the no exceptions pro lifers are going to insist that they are the only ones who can call themselves pro life, then their goal seems to be to make the pro life movement as small as possible.

I agree. I'm in the 10% that think all abortions, regardless of the circumstances, should be illegal camp. That said, I don't think that a mother who has her child killed should be punished legally, but the doctor who performs the abortion to save her life should be investigated to make sure it truly was the last available option to save her life.

That said, I wouldn't discard those who support the life of the mother exception as not being pro-life. Those who support exceptions for rape and incest I see on the borderline as being pro-life, although I do think the 100% pro-life camp should work with them. If we can eliminate 90+% of abortions (those which do not involve rape, incest, life of mother) that is a great start and something that needs to be worked towards.
 
Almost all of the pro life people I know support an exception for the life of the mother. That's not some kind of pro choice view. As pro lifers, we care about the life of both the mother and the baby. You can't just ignore the life of the mother if you claim to be pro life. About 10% of the American people support a complete ban on abortion in all circumstances, then a certain percentage of us support an exception for the life of the mother, and others support exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother. If you add all of those groups together, you get about 50%, which is the entire pro life coalition. If the no exceptions pro lifers are going to insist that they are the only ones who can call themselves pro life, then their goal seems to be to make the pro life movement as small as possible.

In the scenario that I'm presenting, the woman would have to get a written note from a doctor with his signature and perhaps the signature of another doctor, stating that it's medically necessary for her to get an abortion to save her own life. I think abortion should be legal in that situation and that situation only. But it's just extremely rare, so it's really not a huge issue. Over 99% of abortions are performed for reasons that don't involve the life of the mother.

I can understand the rape argument from certain hardcore libertarian starting points, but when anyone else supports that exception I kind of just dismiss them as an emotionalistic idiot. It really doesn't make any sense when it comes down to it. I don't really consider those people to be pro-life by any meaningful definition. Just Republican compromisers. And this is also why I don't care as much about this issue as you'd probably say I should. Most of the Republicans who claim to be "pro-life" don't really mean it and aren't going to be consistent about it. Scott Roeder did more for the pro-life cause than almost every Republican legislator ever.
 
Scott Roeder did more for the pro-life cause than almost every Republican legislator ever.

There you go, yet again, praising a murderer.

Comments like this do not help the pro-life movement, regardless of how you might feel about the morality of Roeder's actions.

If you want to win people over, just keep references to things like that out of your arguments and commentary. Yes, Roeder probably saved countless lives of unborn near-term babies, but just don't bring him up.
 
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Yeah, that's another good point.

I'm not really sure how its a good point (and I agree wth the life of the mother exception based on self-defense). Why couldn't some childless couple just adopt the baby?
I agree. I'm in the 10% that think all abortions, regardless of the circumstances, should be illegal camp. That said, I don't think that a mother who has her child killed should be punished legally, but the doctor who performs the abortion to save her life should be investigated to make sure it truly was the last available option to save her life.

I'm fine with this but for all intents and purposes you're just quibbling here because you know in your heart the Catholic position is silly, so you're making up a technicality that would allow you to pretty much keep abortion to save the mother's life legal yet not technically violate the Catholic dogma that keeping it legal cannot be supported. In practice, I'm not really sure how your position differs from mine or TC's, except for the fact that ideally I want to entirely abolish the State, which has only an indirect effect on this.
That said, I wouldn't discard those who support the life of the mother exception as not being pro-life. Those who support exceptions for rape and incest I see on the borderline as being pro-life, although I do think the 100% pro-life camp should work with them. If we can eliminate 90+% of abortions (those which do not involve rape, incest, life of mother) that is a great start and something that needs to be worked towards.

I'd argue that the rape/incest people are on the borderline of being pro-choice.
 
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