Worse Future Possibly Bill in America? The Student Loan Forgiveness Act of 2012

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Bingo! The loan industry lobbied for this protection, which created moral hazard and heavily contributed to the current debt mess. I believe the current system will be replaced pretty soon with organizations like the Khan academy. The old university system is outdated and mostly useless. (did you know the original universities were started in 16th century Bologna, specifically to train future elite politicians?)

You aren't wrong, but just 180 degrees off. Universities (of higher learning) were instituted in Western Europe to unravel the mysteries of the works of the ancient Greek philosophies of Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates as they continued to be discovered during the time of the Holy Wars. Even before then, the Muslims had already divided up into the two parts of Aristotilian and Platonic philosophical beliefs. This happened around the thirteenth century ACE. Before that time, Western Europe had Christian schools using math as the core science.
In the end, looks like Plato was right. We wouldn't be the dumb ass nation we are today if science and logic were considered branches of math.

 

[Dissent]

I agree with the bill. It is absolutely stupid that young people have to be burdened with debt right out of college. ALL education should be free. Simple as that. We should not be forcing people to wallow in debt because they want an education to better their lives. My mother went back to college at age 36 and at 40 graduated at 42 had her masters degree and she is 40k in debt still because it cost so much to go to school...all that wasted for a measly 40K dollar a year job as a teacher...I stick it to the government whenever I can and I could care less..People can't get anywhere in life if when they are trying to better their lives they are burdened with enormous debt.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

...But that solution would end the gravy train for the banks and the education industrial complex. So instead they come up with this convoluted mess that keeps the unsustainable current system intact and just forces taxpayers to subsidize the banks and schools when the students are no longer able. Pretty par for the course for our government.

There you go. "The education-industrial-government complex"

Bingo! The loan industry lobbied for this protection, which created moral hazard and heavily contributed to the current debt mess.

Debt+government? All roads lead to JP Sachs.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I agree with the bill. It is absolutely stupid that young people have to be burdened with debt right out of college. ALL education should be free. Simple as that. We should not be forcing people to wallow in debt because they want an education to better their lives. My mother went back to college at age 36 and at 40 graduated at 42 had her masters degree and she is 40k in debt still because it cost so much to go to school...all that wasted for a measly 40K dollar a year job as a teacher...I stick it to the government whenever I can and I could care less..People can't get anywhere in life if when they are trying to better their lives they are burdened with enormous debt.

That's fine and dandy. Now who is going to pay the teachers and pay for the buildings and all of the other associated costs?

Personally, I don't mind having a basic education option that is controlled and paid for at the local level. Reading, writing and arithmetic should be available to all.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I agree with the bill. It is absolutely stupid that young people have to be burdened with debt right out of college. ALL education should be free. Simple as that. We should not be forcing people to wallow in debt because they want an education to better their lives. My mother went back to college at age 36 and at 40 graduated at 42 had her masters degree and she is 40k in debt still because it cost so much to go to school...all that wasted for a measly 40K dollar a year job as a teacher...I stick it to the government whenever I can and I could care less..People can't get anywhere in life if when they are trying to better their lives they are burdened with enormous debt.

Free outright education leads to a system of diseducation.
Diseducation -- The teaching of false dichotomies outside of the American dichotomy established by our Founding Fathers.
A diseducated person is worse than an uneducated one.
I already made this point in my thread entitled "Reducing to an American Dichotomy; Criterion Versus Criteria. A criterion is the reduction to a formal dichotomy which is a scientific endeavor in nature while the reduction to a criteria of endless issues is a sophisticated practice of the teaching of false dichotomies.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

That's fine and dandy. Now who is going to pay the teachers and pay for the buildings and all of the other associate costs?

Personally, I don't mind having a basic education option that is controlled and paid for at the local level. Reading, writing and arithmetic should be available to all.

The best way to cause derision in a society is to teach that every individual in it has their own unique opinion. In actuality, we also have a collective opinion. A formal dichotomy is this collective opinion. We inherited half of our American dichotomy from our Founding Fathers in The Declaration of Independence. This part pertains to a tyrant sitting on a throne as the owner of all things. The other half of this dichotomy is his exact inverse with this part pertaining to a homeless prostitute as someone who is owned as property.
This is our American dichotomy and the establishment of our Civil Purpose as the power of its sovereignty needs no vindication by any manipulative political means.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

That, and it would reduce the moral hazard because lenders wouldn't be so loose with lending. We wouldn't have a glut of people with worthless degrees and buried in debt. I would prefer loans be dismissed through bankruptcy than forgiveness. That would get rid of bad debt without burdening taxpayers. Tuition and other prices would go up, but that's just an indicator of reality.

Time to make student loans available to file under bankruptcy.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Huh? Why else would people declare bankruptcy?


How so? A person going through bankruptcy doesn't get a "free ride" like the bailed-out folks do. A bankruptcy fucks up one's life for a lonnnng time. It's one of the worst personal disasters there is.

Yeah it takes 7 years to get it cleared from your credit history.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

I agree with the bill. It is absolutely stupid that young people have to be burdened with debt right out of college. ALL education should be free. Simple as that. We should not be forcing people to wallow in debt because they want an education to better their lives. My mother went back to college at age 36 and at 40 graduated at 42 had her masters degree and she is 40k in debt still because it cost so much to go to school...all that wasted for a measly 40K dollar a year job as a teacher...I stick it to the government whenever I can and I could care less..People can't get anywhere in life if when they are trying to better their lives they are burdened with enormous debt.

Why should college be "free"?

 

[Dissent]

Why should it cost money? So only the rich can afford an education and get good jobs?

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Why should it cost money? So only the rich can afford an education and get good jobs?

Why should a Fillet Mignon meal cost money? Oh yeah, you got me there. It is free for those with the EBT.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Yeah it takes 7 years to get it cleared from your credit history.

Jubilee concept. But, then again, we aren't a disadvantaged minority like the Jews trying to succeed under the rule of an empire. To the contrary, we are a disadvantaged majority of the people trying to control tyranny.
It is amazing to me how youngsters try to disqualify everything Christian in our culture when such an action taken makes us all blind to those secular tendencies that are harmful to our economy.
No more talk of jubilee seven year nonsense please. Most of us out here were raised appreciating the value of a dollar, that it is a shame to depend on our government or our families, and that we should all be trying our best to pull ourselves up by our own boot straps.

 

[Sam I am]

As irresponsible as such a bill would be, It's really just another TARP, except not just for rich people

 

[alucard13mmfmj]

lol if this bill is gonna pass... imma apply to medical school now.

 

[LibForestPaul]

Because those debts are dischargable and student loans are not. The extremely simple solution to the student debt problem is to allow those debts to be discharged like any other debt. But that solution would end the gravy train for the banks and the education industrial complex. So instead they come up with this convoluted mess that keeps the unsustainable current system intact and just forces taxpayers to subsidize the banks and schools when the students are no longer able. Pretty par for the course for our government.

Public risk, private reward...free market should be placed on the endangered species list.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

You aren't wrong, but just 180 degrees off. Universities (of higher learning) were instituted in Western Europe to unravel the mysteries of the works of the ancient Greek philosophies of Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates as they continued to be discovered during the time of the Holy Wars. Even before then, the Muslims had already divided up into the two parts of Aristotilian and Platonic philosophical beliefs. This happened around the thirteenth century ACE. Before that time, Western Europe had Christian schools using math as the core science.
In the end, looks like Plato was right. We wouldn't be the dumb ass nation we are today if science and logic were considered branches of math.

Ah, thanks for correcting me! My bad.

I once read this, which is probably why I got my history wrong:
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]NINE CENTURIES OF BUREAUCRACY
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The first university, Bologna, was begun in 1088. It was a law school. It taught the newly rediscovered system of Roman civil law, as interpreted by Justinian in the sixth century. Then came the University of Paris in the mid-twelfth century and Oxford in the early thirteenth. They offered young men a chance at getting lifetime jobs in law, the church, or the state. In other words, they sold security.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The curriculum was formal: grammar, logic, and rhetoric to get in, plus arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music. If you survived four years, you got to study theology and philosophy. Was any of this useful academically? Only if you planned to become a bureaucrat or other functionary.[/FONT]
[TABLE="width: 135, align: right"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The college system was created mainly for political and social control. It gave the church and the state a formal way to screen candidates for the highest levels of the enforcement system. The university was about power most of all.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The faculties had their own goals. They wanted independence. They got it. That is why graduation ceremonies involve caps and gowns. The robes symbolize authority. The universities were a separate legal jurisdiction. The faculty members could not be removed at will by higher authorities. There was a layer of protective legality and bureaucracy in between them and the source of their funding.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]This was the sweetest of all deals. The faculties screened access by their own rules. They did not have to raise their funding. They had control over the curriculum. They had control over the students. They could not be fired easily. It was the bureaucrat's dream: control without economic responsibility.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Today, it's called academic freedom. It culminates in tenure: career immunity from everything except the worst kind of moral infraction. What is a worst-case moral infraction? Anything on the six o'clock local TV news that leads to an investigation by the legislature (state university) or the board of trustees, where large donors dominate (private university). To quote the legendary Lakers announcer, Chick Hearn, "No harm, no foul," with harm being defined as the threat of budget cuts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The faculties have the sweetest career deal on earth: comfortable income, little work (once tenured), complete control in the classroom, graduate students who teach freshmen and do research that can be appropriated by senior professors, four months of paid vacation, a paid sabbatical year one year in seven, and free faculty parking lots. They get paid to read.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Ah, thanks for correcting me! My bad.

I once read this, which is probably why I got my history wrong:
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]NINE CENTURIES OF BUREAUCRACY
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The first university, Bologna, was begun in 1088. It was a law school. It taught the newly rediscovered system of Roman civil law, as interpreted by Justinian in the sixth century. Then came the University of Paris in the mid-twelfth century and Oxford in the early thirteenth. They offered young men a chance at getting lifetime jobs in law, the church, or the state. In other words, they sold security.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The curriculum was formal: grammar, logic, and rhetoric to get in, plus arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music. If you survived four years, you got to study theology and philosophy. Was any of this useful academically? Only if you planned to become a bureaucrat or other functionary.[/FONT]
[TABLE="width: 135, align: right"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The college system was created mainly for political and social control. It gave the church and the state a formal way to screen candidates for the highest levels of the enforcement system. The university was about power most of all.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The faculties had their own goals. They wanted independence. They got it. That is why graduation ceremonies involve caps and gowns. The robes symbolize authority. The universities were a separate legal jurisdiction. The faculty members could not be removed at will by higher authorities. There was a layer of protective legality and bureaucracy in between them and the source of their funding.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]This was the sweetest of all deals. The faculties screened access by their own rules. They did not have to raise their funding. They had control over the curriculum. They had control over the students. They could not be fired easily. It was the bureaucrat's dream: control without economic responsibility.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Today, it's called academic freedom. It culminates in tenure: career immunity from everything except the worst kind of moral infraction. What is a worst-case moral infraction? Anything on the six o'clock local TV news that leads to an investigation by the legislature (state university) or the board of trustees, where large donors dominate (private university). To quote the legendary Lakers announcer, Chick Hearn, "No harm, no foul," with harm being defined as the threat of budget cuts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The faculties have the sweetest career deal on earth: comfortable income, little work (once tenured), complete control in the classroom, graduate students who teach freshmen and do research that can be appropriated by senior professors, four months of paid vacation, a paid sabbatical year one year in seven, and free faculty parking lots. They get paid to read.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

Cool. Perhaps the concept of the original university in Western Europe arose from many sources.

 

[KingNothing]

Why should it cost money? So only the rich can afford an education and get good jobs?

Because slavery is wrong, and we can't force people to construction buildings, write books and software, and teach classes for free?

Are you serious or kidding?

And for what it's worth, the internet is doing a wonderful job of bringing education to the masses. MIT and CMU, among other world-class universities, ARE offering classes online for free. This is a trend that will no doubt continue and expand.

 

[jbauer]

YES!!!! College should be restricted to those that can afford it. Those that can't should have to take out a loan or not go. Just like EVERYONE else. Want a nice car? Pay for it. Want a nice house? Pay for it? Want a nice education? Pay for it.

The reason we have all these problems is that we've been telling students they need to go to college to get a good job for decades. Well, they listened. So record numbers went to college during a time when there just isn't jobs for all of them. Supply and demand rather then entitlement should have been taught.

The real problem is that we have a significant portion of kids that "normally" would have been to stupid for school that went anyway thinking that having a worthless piece of paper would make them rich. We also have engrained this thought that just because you have that worthless piece of paper it entitles you to a high wage job. Well guess what? It doesn't. It isn't fair. But that’s life, get over it.

Why should it cost money? So only the rich can afford an education and get good jobs?

 

[jbauer]

What????!!!??? Who do you think holds the college debt and would be getting "paid back" by such a buy out? Probably the people with the money right?

As irresponsible as such a bill would be, It's really just another TARP, except not just for rich people