Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?

[cajuncocoa]

Who's talking about settling for Flake? We're talking about supporting a guy who would be a much better alternative than the other guy. Flake isn't the epitome of a liberty candidate, but he shares common ground with us on fiscal issues. Wouldn't our movement benefit by having him in congress instead of a guy with whom we share no common ground?

(as predicted, this thread is stuck in the same spot it was 24 hours ago)

That doesn't work for me anymore. As I state in my sig line, the lesser of two evils is still evil.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Is there any besides a republican?
Pretty much anyone except a Republican,, to send a clear message that they NEED to reform.

They have had shit before,,why not a democrat.. Certainly could not be any worse that the "R's" I have been seeing. Well,,maybe worse, but possibly a damn sight better.

Why do we always have to choose between "shit" and "turd" ?

Not my area or vote,, but just transferring from my experience here.

I couldn't agree more. If we vote for them anyway, what incentive do they have to reform?

 

[LibertyEagle]

Who's talking about settling for Flake? We're talking about supporting a guy who would be a much better alternative than the other guy. Flake isn't the epitome of a liberty candidate, but he shares common ground with us on fiscal issues. Wouldn't our movement benefit by having him in congress instead of a guy with whom we share no common ground?

(as predicted, this thread is stuck in the same spot it was 24 hours ago)

Because a few of you keep trying to get us to say he is a liberty candidate and the simple fact is that he is not.

You are pushing way too hard. Some of us have already stated that we would have voted for him if we lived in Arizona, given the other options. But, apparently that is not enough for a few of you.

Stop pushing. Because all you are doing is getting people's backs up.

 

[AJ Antimony]

Is there any besides a republican?
Pretty much anyone except a Republican,, to send a clear message that they NEED to reform.

They have had shit before,,why not a democrat.. Certainly could not be any worse that the "R's" I have been seeing. Well,,maybe worse, but possibly a damn sight better.

You can vote for whoever you want to. And guess what? The establishment candidates don't care! Even with all the protest/3rd party votes, the establishment Republicans still win general elections. People (such as capital L Libertarians) have been protest voting for years and it's had ZERO impact.

Politicians don't feel "the message to reform" from fringe protest voters. They feel the pressure from individuals who get involved in the party locally and who successfully organize and fundraise for those who vote with us on our issues.

The establishment doesn't give a shit about protest votes. What they do give a shit about is the ability to fundraise, organize, and get voters to the polls. Do that successfully then they will wipe your ass if you ask them to.

Why do we always have to choose between "shit" and "turd" ?

Because we don't field enough of our own candidates!

 

[AJ Antimony]

I keep hearing that,, (yes I have been following the thread)
How is supporting MASSIVE Government Intrusion and Bureaucracy translated into "Fiscal responsibility"?
Just what "fiscal Issues" does he share any common ground,, and do you have evidence beyond rhetoric?

You have NOT been following the thread or you would have seen the 20 posts that highlight Flake's voting record.

 

[juleswin]

You guys nailed it....+rep to you both.

@juleswin...when liberal friends ask "where were you when Bush was doing the same thing?", "how come you didnt say anything until my guy did it?" you will want to be able to honestly answer: "I was right here complaining about those things, just as I'm complaining right now when Obama is doing them. Why aren't YOU complaining as loudly as you did when Bush was doing those things?"

Then you would know they are just being thick headed. But I think its a very legitimate question to ask "why were you supporting candidates that voted for bills which violated their civil liberties when it had a R after their name?" Now I can honestly say that I did not support hem and in fact I was speaking out against them whenever the opportunity to do so arose.

Btw I am not as hardline as I may appear to sound, I will still vote for the lesser of 2 evil when there is a wide difference between the 2 evils. E.g One supports stealing my money and giving it to a foreign country and the regular statist policies(Public education, subsidizes, welfare) vs one who supports NDAA, Patriot act, Iran war, FED secrecy, carbon tax, net neutrality etc etc. I know its never this clear cut like I described but if I see those 2 evils as an option in the ballot, I will pick the former. I will never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

For the love of God, Flake supported cap and trade(or his version of it). That is not a step forward, its just slower reverse speed than Sen Kyle

 

[cajuncocoa]

Then you would know they are just being thick headed. But I think its a very legitimate question to ask "why were you supporting candidates that voted for bills which violated their civil liberties when it had a R after their name?" Now I can honestly say that I did not support hem and in fact I was speaking out against them whenever the opportunity to do so arose.

Btw I am not as hardline as I may appear to sound, I will still vote for the lesser of 2 evil when there is a wide difference between the 2 evils. E.g One supports stealing my money and giving it to a foreign country and the regular statist policies(Public education, subsidizes, welfare) vs one who supports NDAA, Patriot act, Iran war, FED secrecy, carbon tax, net neutrality etc etc. I know its never this clear cut like I described but if I see those 2 evils as an option in the ballot, I will pick the former. I will never let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

For the love of God, Flake supported cap and trade(or his version of it). That is not a step forward, its just slower reverse speed than Sen Kyle

You might be misunderstanding why I posted that to you...I'm NOT a supporter of Flake; just the opposite in fact!!

What I meant by my comment is we need to be consistent. Supporting Flake is not being consistent if we value our civil liberties.

 

[cajuncocoa]

You can vote for whoever you want to. And guess what? The establishment candidates don't care! Even with all the protest/3rd party votes, the establishment Republicans still win general elections. People (such as capital L Libertarians) have been protest voting for years and it's had ZERO impact.

Politicians don't feel "the message to reform" from fringe protest voters. They feel the pressure from individuals who get involved in the party locally and who successfully organize and fundraise for those who vote with us on our issues.

The establishment doesn't give a shit about protest votes. What they do give a shit about is the ability to fundraise, organize, and get voters to the polls. Do that successfully then they will wipe your ass if you ask them to.



Because we don't field enough of our own candidates!

 

[Bastiat's The Law]

Is there ANY chance Rand could talk some sense into him?

 

[pcosmar]

You have NOT been following the thread or you would have seen the 20 posts that highlight Flake's voting record.

???

I was interested in something effective.
Did he vote to de-fund TSA?
Or for Base closings?
etc
etc
etc
Voting against The "D" side while supporting Massive Spending on the "R" side doesn't really accomplish anything.

I keep hearing "fiscal issues" which is kind of nebulous and generic. What exactly did he cut.

I have watched several votes live,, and watched the strategic voting that takes place. It frankly sickens me every time.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Is there ANY chance Rand could talk some sense into him?

Why are y'all so desperate to get behind this guy? (Rand's words don't carry as much weight with some of us as they used to in any case FYI)

 

[AJ Antimony]

???

I was interested in something effective.
Did he vote to de-fund TSA?
Or for Base closings?
etc
etc
etc
Voting against The "D" side while supporting Massive Spending on the "R" side doesn't really accomplish anything.

I keep hearing "fiscal issues" which is kind of nebulous and generic. What exactly did he cut.

I have watched several votes live,, and watched the strategic voting that takes place. It frankly sickens me every time.

Post #12 by tsai3904:

Against No Child Left Behind (34 Rs voted no)
Against Sarbanes-Oxley (only R besides Ron to vote no)
Against creating Dept of Homeland Security (10 Rs voted no)
Against Medicare Part D (19 Rs voted no)
Against making online poker illegal (17 Rs voted no)
Against raising minimum wage
Against Bush's stimulus (28 Rs voted no)
Against extending unemployment insurance (28 Rs voted no)
Against funding Obama's troop surge in Afghanistan (12 Rs voted no)
For repeal of DADT (15 Rs voted yes)
Against reauthorizing Export-Import Bank

See? Fiscally conservative votes AGAINST Republican spending.

Post #54 by GeorgiaAvenger talks about Flake's amendments to improve the Patriot Act, his openness to drug war reform, his wanting to defend the UN, and his votes against foreign aid, even to Israel.

tbone7117 posted the details about the NDAA votes about 50,000 times

Post #246 by NoOneButPaul links to the 2010 RLC scorecard that lists many votes taken by Flake who ranked #1 among all members of Congress

Post #358 by tbone717 again clarifies Flake's Patriot Act and NDAA votes to show exactly how he handled those two (three) bills

There, I sped read the thread for you.

How have you been following Ron Paul since 2007 and have never heard of Jeff Flake?

 

[sailingaway]

Post #12 by tsai3904:


See? Fiscally conservative votes AGAINST Republican spending.

Post #54 by GeorgiaAvenger talks about Flake's amendments to improve the Patriot Act, his openness to drug war reform, his wanting to defend the UN, and his votes against foreign aid, even to Israel.

tbone7117 posted the details about the NDAA votes about 50,000 times

Post #246 by NoOneButPaul links to the 2010 RLC scorecard that lists many votes taken by Flake who ranked #1 among all members of Congress

Post #358 by tbone717 again clarifies Flake's Patriot Act and NDAA votes to show exactly how he handled those two (three) bills

There, I sped read the thread for you.

How have you been following Ron Paul since 2007 and have never heard of Jeff Flake?

Your speeding through the thread kinda seems to leave out all the RESPONSES to those positions, such as by tbone.

What is your dog in this fight?

 

[pcosmar]

Post #358 by tbone717 again clarifies Flake's Patriot Act and NDAA votes to show exactly how he handled those two (three) bills

There, I sped read the thread for you.

How have you been following Ron Paul since 2007 and have never heard of Jeff Flake?

I had heard of him.. I support RP,, NOT republicans. (I am Independent)

And by clarify,,,do you mean obfuscate. (and how much do those unconstitutional offenses cost?)

Oppose is oppose.

OH,,, and I have not seen any cut in spending.
I hear lots of talk,, and then a budget is passed.. What happened to shutting down the government for lack of funds..
That's right,, a "budget" got passed.

perhaps we just have a drastic difference in the term "fiscal conservative".

 

[AJ Antimony]

Your speeding through the thread kinda seems to leave out all the RESPONSES to those positions, such as by tbone.

What is your dog in this fight?

pcosmar was asking about fiscal issues. Post #12 answers them. The votes discussed in post #12 are facts, not opinions. If pcosmar wants detailed answers buried in this thread, then he has to read the thread. If pcosmar wants the details of Flake's entire voting history, then he has to Google it. I'm not going to spend hours researching for pcosmar, especially to prove that Jeff Flake of all people is a fiscal conservative.

 

[AJ Antimony]

I had heard of him.. I support RP,, NOT republicans. (I am Independent)

And by clarify,,,do you mean obfuscate. (and how much do those unconstitutional offenses cost?)

Oppose is oppose.

OH,,, and I have not seen any cut in spending.
I hear lots of talk,, and then a budget is passed.. What happened to shutting down the government for lack of funds..
That's right,, a "budget" got passed.

perhaps we just have a drastic difference in the term "fiscal conservative".

What are you talking about? So let me see if I understand you correctly... You want to see Flake propose bills to cut funding to, for example, the Department of Homeland Security, even though he was one of only 10 Republicans to vote against creating it?

 

[sailingaway]

pcosmar was asking about fiscal issues. Post #12 answers them. The votes discussed in post #12 are facts, not opinions. If pcosmar wants detailed answers buried in this thread, then he has to read the thread. If pcosmar wants the details of Flake's entire voting history, then he has to Google it. I'm not going to spend hours researching for pcosmar, especially to prove that Jeff Flake of all people is a fiscal conservative.

it was your point on his one side of Flake's NDAA position that provoked my response.

Jeff Flake has voted against INCREASING spending often. I don't know how much he has voted to cut it, but as senators go, he's a fiscal conservative on most things, I would say.

That isn't where I have problems with him, it is his strongest recommendation.

How do we get civil liberties added to the 'Liberty index'? Because so many of us consider the index bogus without it.

 

[pcosmar]

Actually,, I just wanted to see the thread die and be buried.
It started with the presumption that he was some benefit to the "Liberty" movement.

But on your advice I went and looked at his own site and for the most part,, his Fiscal side seems to be slanted toward Banks and Corporations.

All and all he is a real mixed bag,, and much panders to the Religious Right, and legislating "morality" except for the pointless war which he seems consistently for. (isn't that rather costly)
There were a couple points that I could agree with,,, but certainly not what I could call "a champion of the movement".

At best he may be (yet to be seen) better than the other guy.

 

[phx420]

curve ball.... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Van-for-US-Senate/137914286307313