Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?

Look I respect your opnions, but here is where you show that you are making no sense. NDAA is a spending bill, it is put up every year because NDAA dictates the defense department spending. There is a 2013 NDAA currently moving through the House, there was a 2012 NDAA, there was a 1999 NDAA. We don't want NDAA gone - that makes no sense whatsoever. What we had issue was, was with the 2012 NDAA which gave the federal govt the ability to detain US citizens indefinitely without trial. That language was fixed in the 2013 bill, and done so without granting foreign soldiers additional rights that they previously did not have - and when I say previously I mean long before 9/11.

You make a good point about the NDAA as a whole. It is a spending bill. It is the things that have been lobbed onto it that cause the major problems that we have had with it. When you say the language was fixed in the 2013 bill, are you thinking that because of that lame Gohmert amendment that did absolutely nothing?

EDIT: Yes, apparently you are.
 
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tbone, for months I have argued with you and others about what I see as the danger of merging our R3volution with the GOP. I worried that the GOP would make false promises to us, pretending to be one of us (from the bottom on up), and then make excuses when the promises fail. I feared they would wave shiny objects in front of us to distract us and make us think we're crazy for believing in the principles we have.


This thread, more than any other shows me that our R3volution has already been co-opted, and I hope that it's not too late to turn it around (but it probably is).


Congratulations, tbone. Should we offer you 30 pieces of silver?
 
tbone, for months I have argued with you and others about what I see as the danger of merging our R3volution with the GOP. I worried that the GOP would make false promises to us, pretending to be one of us (from the bottom on up), and then make excuses when the promises fail. I feared they would wave shiny objects in front of us to distract us and make us think we're crazy for believing in the principles we have.


This thread, more than any other shows me that our R3volution has already been co-opted, and I hope that it's not too late to turn it around (but it probably is).


Congratulations, tbone. Should we offer you 30 pieces of silver?

Calm down, Cajun. He hasn't co-opted shit. It might however, point out to people that they should probably be a bit wary of the RLC and not just blindly trust what they pump out. Especially with regard to who they are recommending as candidates.

:)
 
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Calm down, Cajun. He hasn't co-opted shit. It might however, point out to people that they should probably be a bit wary of the RLC and not just blindly trust what they pump out. Especially with regard to who they are recommending as candidates.

:)

Everyone is free to have their own list of who they choose to support and the criteria by which that organization will hand out an endorsement. RLC has their candidate process, and other groups have their methods.
 
You make a good point about the NDAA as a whole. It is a spending bill. It is the things that have been lobbed onto it that cause the major problems that we have had with it. When you say the language was fixed in the 2013 bill, are you thinking that because of that lame Gohmert amendment that did absolutely nothing?

EDIT: Yes, apparently you are.

If the issue was indefinite detention of American citizens without right to a trial, then the Gohmert amendment addresses that IMO. The Smith Amendment did as well, but then went on to grant the same rights to foreign soldiers captured on our soil. Foreign soldiers never had those rights before. In that sense it was an expansion of rights, and I believe because of this the amendment failed.
 
Back to Flake...(I am not clarifying for you, but for the thread as a whole)

On NDAA: He did not vote for the NDAA 2012. He did vote for NDAA 2013, but also voted for the Gohmert Amendment which "clarifies that the FY 2012 National Defense Authorization Act and the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) do not deny the writ of habeas corpus or deny any Constitutional rights for persons detained in the United States under the AUMF who are entitled to such rights.". So the 2013 bill does not allow for American citizens to be arrested and thrown in a prison camp with no due process whatsoever.

On the Patriot Act: Yes he voted for it in 2001. Every Republican did with the exception of Ron Paul, Bob Ney and Butch Otter (neither Ney or Otter are currently in the House). But in 2005, Flake chaired the Patriot Act Reform Caucus. The other members of this caucus included Tom Udall, Bernie Sanders, Jerrold Nadler, and (wait for it) Ron Paul. Hardly a neo-con think tank with that group. Two Republicans are on a caucus to address the Patriot Act - Ron Paul and Jeff Flake. In 2005 Flake proposed four amendments to the Patriot Act. "Two of his amendments were signed into law and they subjected any National Security Letter and its gag order to a judicial challenge by the recipient, and narrowed the scope of "Sneak and Peek" warrants to have definite time limits on their duration and extensions before they need to notify the target of the investigation" (wikipedia). Flake voted for the 2005 Patriot Act bill. Coincidentally so did Bob Ney. Perhaps both felth the amendments added to the bill addressed an of the specific issues they felt needed to be reformed. I don't know, you'd have to ask them. Of course Bob Ney is in jail, but I digress.

I think sometimes, we get caught up in the spin & rhetoric that comes from our side. People automatically think NDAA is bad. I saw someone (I think in here) state that we shouldn't even have an NDAA bill. Obviously they had no idea that we have one every year because it is the defense budget. Sure the 2012 bill was bad, and Flake & Paul voted against it, among others. The 2013 Bill (which still has yet to be voted in the Senate) was improved, and had the "habeus corpus" provisions in there that were necessary. What would be telling is if the final conference report removes that language would Flake vote for the conference report? And regarding the Patriot Act, while I think we need to get rid of the whole thing, there are many intelligent reasoned people that think some of the arguments that our side makes (ie. Americans are going to be spied on, they are looking at your library cards, etc) are baseless. Here is what Flake had to say about the Patriot Act in 2005:

"Some of the most contentious fights in Congress come when the federal government must balance two responsibilities that can conflict each other, such as preserving civil liberties and effectively fighting domestic terrorism. The process that has created this bill exemplifies the way Congress ought to work. Debate was thorough and the process was fair, and I believe that it has created a bill that makes the country safer while protecting civil liberties.”

So while some might disagree with his vote, I believe that he has demonstrated a concern for civil liberties based on his words and actions. Is he perfect? No. Is he the next libertarian hero? No. But when you look at the entirety of his career, and the particular concern he has had concerning both the NDAA and the Patriot Act. I think that he will be a fine addition to the Senate and will without a doubt in my mind be an asset for the Liberty Movement as a whole.

His last vote on indefinite detention of American citizens without trial, which would literally permit concentration camps with no recourse, was to vote AGAINST reversing that law with the Smith Amash bill.

I really think that dwarfs any other vote.
 
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His last vote on indefinite detention of American citizens without trial, which would literally permit concentration camps in the US (or rendition to camps OUTSIDE the US) with no recourse, was to vote AGAINST reversing that law with the Smith Amash bill.

I really think that dwarfs any other vote.

Do you feel that foreign soldiers captured on US soil should have the right to a civil trial? They never have had that right before, and the Smith Amendment would grant those rights to them. The amendment specifically stated "any person". That language goes above and beyond what has been law prior to this.

At what point in US History have enemy troops captured on US soil been given the same Constitutional rights as US citizens?:
 
If the issue was indefinite detention of American citizens without right to a trial, then the Gohmert amendment addresses that IMO. The Smith Amendment did as well, but then went on to grant the same rights to foreign soldiers captured on our soil. Foreign soldiers never had those rights before. In that sense it was an expansion of rights, and I believe because of this the amendment failed.


The Gohmert Amendment (House Amendment 1126) states that the NDAA will not “deny the writ of habeas corpus or deny any Constitutional rights for persons detained in the United States under the AUMF who are entitled to such rights.”

Don't you think that is kind of circular? The prisoner is still taken without due process or access to a lawyer to enforce their rights.

It would be like all those people in Iraq under Saddam Hussein. I remember being struck by the crowds of hundreds of thousands of people hunting, after we took Baghdad for all the people who disappeared under Hussein. If people disappear, and aren't BROUGHT to a judge, how do they get their rights addressed?

At very best this vague language contradicts the plain language of section 1021 which SPECIFIES no trial is required.
 
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Don't you think that is kind of circular? The prisoner is still taken without due process or access to a lawyer to enforce their rights.

It would be like all those people in Iraq under Saddam Hussein. I remember being struck by the crowds of hundreds of thousands of people hunting for all the people who disappeared after we took Baghdad. If people disappear, and aren't BROUGHT to a judge, how do they get their rights addressed?

Incorrect. A writ of habeus corpus requires that the prisoner be brought before a judge. As I read it citizens have the same Constitutional rights under the AUMF that they would if someone was picked up for shoplifting. Regardless of the offence they have the right to stand before a judge and be represented by a lawyer. The problem with 2012 NDAA is that the language in the bill implied that US citizens were being denied that right. That is why the language was clarified in the 2013 bill as I read it.

Foreign troops have never had that right before, and the Smith Amendment gave them that right.
 
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Incorrect. A writ of habeus corpus requires that the prisoner be brought before a judge. As I read it citizens have the same Constitutional rights under the AUMF that they would if someone was picked up for shoplifting. Regardless of the offence they have the right to stand before a judge and be represented by a lawyer. The problem with 2012 NDAA is that the language in the bill implied that US citizens were being denied that right. That is why the language was clarified in the 2013 bill as I read it.

Foreign troops have never had that right before, and the Smith Amendment gave them that right.

1022 specifically covers foreign members of Al Queda ON TOP OF 1021 which can only be assumed by construction to apply to others than those, given there is an entirely separate section for it.

SEC. 1022. MILITARY CUSTODY FOR FOREIGN AL-QAEDA TERRORISTS.

(a) Custody Pending Disposition Under Law of War-
(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (4), the Armed Forces of the United States shall hold a person described in paragraph (2) who is captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.
(2) COVERED PERSONS- The requirement in paragraph (1) shall apply to any person whose detention is authorized under section 1021 who is determined--
(A) to be a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force that acts in coordination with or pursuant to the direction of al-Qaeda; and
(B) to have participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.
(3) DISPOSITION UNDER LAW OF WAR- For purposes of this subsection, the disposition of a person under the law of war has the meaning given in section 1021(c), except that no transfer otherwise described in paragraph (4) of that section shall be made unless consistent with the requirements of section 1028.
(4) WAIVER FOR NATIONAL SECURITY- The President may waive the requirement of paragraph (1) if the President submits to Congress a certification in writing that such a waiver is in the national security interests of the United States.
(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-
(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.
(2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.
(c) Implementation Procedures-
(1) IN GENERAL- Not later than 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the President shall issue, and submit to Congress, procedures for implementing this section.
(2) ELEMENTS- The procedures for implementing this section shall include, but not be limited to, procedures as follows:
(A) Procedures designating the persons authorized to make determinations under subsection (a)(2) and the process by which such determinations are to be made.
(B) Procedures providing that the requirement for military custody under subsection (a)(1) does not require the interruption of ongoing surveillance or intelligence gathering with regard to persons not already in the custody or control of the United States.
(C) Procedures providing that a determination under subsection (a)(2) is not required to be implemented until after the conclusion of an interrogation which is ongoing at the time the determination is made and does not require the interruption of any such ongoing interrogation.
(D) Procedures providing that the requirement for military custody under subsection (a)(1) does not apply when intelligence, law enforcement, or other Government officials of the United States are granted access to an individual who remains in the custody of a third country.
(E) Procedures providing that a certification of national security interests under subsection (a)(4) may be granted for the purpose of transferring a covered person from a third country if such a transfer is in the interest of the United States and could not otherwise be accomplished.
(d) Authorities- Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect the existing criminal enforcement and national security authorities of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or any other domestic law enforcement agency with regard to a covered person, regardless whether such covered person is held in military custody.
(e) Effective Date- This section shall take effect on the date that is 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, and shall apply with respect to persons described in subsection (a)(2) who are taken into the custody or brought under the control of the United States on or after that effective date.

whereas section 1021 says, about that writ of habeus corpus:

(c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111-84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person's country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.

then it says that nothing herein shall be deemed to change existing law however, that only is saying they are saying this was the case all along. What this section DOES is say that a crime or support of a crime in peacetime in the US is 'hostilities in war' which are separately covered by the Constitution. It is the making the homeland a battlefield and a crime such as we have always treated as a crime into an act of WAR that IS the change.

The amendment you refer to only applies to those not taken to other nations for detention, (such as Gitmo) and calls into question the caveats in the Constitution:

The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Section 1021 pretends that public safety requires that the homeland be treated as a battlefield.

(a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
 
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Do you feel that foreign soldiers captured on US soil should have the right to a civil trial? They never have had that right before, and the Smith Amendment would grant those rights to them. The amendment specifically stated "any person". That language goes above and beyond what has been law prior to this.

At what point in US History have enemy troops captured on US soil been given the same Constitutional rights as US citizens?:

I'd sure vote for that to get rid of the idea of US citizens being able to be held without due process, and know damned well I could get it changed later.
 
This thread, more than any other shows me that our R3volution has already been co-opted, and I hope that it's not too late to turn it around (but it probably is).

What Revolution? You don't even have a dog catcher to support.
 
Why would supporting a dog catcher, just to support a dog catcher, advance particular principles?

You need a dog catcher who will actually follow them.

Truth be told, you want a fascist for dog catcher - catch the darn dog and haul him away.

A libertarian dog catcher would have to ponder whether or not the dog's individual liberties were being violated, whether or not other individuals liberties were being violated by the dog, how he could properly subdue the dog (if he chose to) without aggression, and whether or not it is the role of government to catch dogs in the first place or should there be a free market solution.

By that time the dog would have run away.
 
Truth be told, you want a fascist for dog catcher - catch the darn dog and haul him away.

A libertarian dog catcher would have to ponder whether or not the dog's individual liberties were being violated, whether or not other individuals liberties were being violated by the dog, how he could properly subdue the dog (if he chose to) without aggression, and whether or not it is the role of government to catch dogs in the first place or should there be a free market solution.

By that time the dog would have run away.

That is very true. Philosophically speaking, hardcore libertarians aren't cut out for high profile politics. But they can be excellent foot-soldiers that can add incredible energy and ethusiasm to one's campaign.
 
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Truth be told, you want a fascist for dog catcher - catch the darn dog and haul him away.

A libertarian dog catcher would have to ponder whether or not the dog's individual liberties were being violated, whether or not other individuals liberties were being violated by the dog, how he could properly subdue the dog (if he chose to) without aggression, and whether or not it is the role of government to catch dogs in the first place or should there be a free market solution.

By that time the dog would have run away.

Great post. You've always been a winner.

I see you're still pimping RLC here.

Bye bye. Thanks for playing.
 
I agree. Flake doesn't merit our support. No need to lower the bar that low.

Yea so low... he's one of the best liberty people will have in the Congress and he beat out Ron Paul on the Liberty index in 2010 (I posted the link a few pages back)

You people are insane. The standards you all set will destroy this movement, and the hubris you all carry is flat out sad.
 
You people are insane. The standards you all set will destroy this movement, and the hubris you all carry is flat out sad.

Interesting that your forum name is NoOneButPaul
 
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