Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?

[sailingaway]

Bingo.

And what about those crowds now? We had 5,000 show up in Springfield, Virginia -- where we were recruiting and educating about delegates. How many were local? I dunno. But we had 97 of "our people" show up to our conventions in the adjacent town. Almost none of them from our efforts at the rally.

We won one delegate, and zero party positions. With 50 more of that 5,000 we would have had 3 delegates going to Tampa instead of 1. We picked up a lot of "coalition" support -- and If those 250 people had also paid a $15 fee to vote on party positions, we would also have control of the local party, and access to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars in additional funds via the party.

so what? We energized millions and turned the youth to look at our ideas, or Ron did. Flake could never do that. That is what will grow it so we can get more Ron Pauls elected -- not Flakes.

A Congress FULL of Flakes would never get where I want to go, only Ron Pauls will do that.

 

[gerryb]

People heard him and looked at his record and were energized. Others without that record can mouth the words and it is meaningless.

Many in this thread don't want to participate in local races. How will we ever have a record to display and get the masses excited about if we the "tireless minority" don't work locally to get candidates elected?

How will our issues get any discussion or air/print time if we don't get people who will talk about 80% of them?

 

[tbone717]

None of the others excite that interest because they DON'T have Paul's record. I don't see how what you say refutes anything I said. People heard him and looked at his record and were energized. Others without that record can mouth the words and it is meaningless.

No but you inferred that Ron Paul came out of nowhere and got to where he was today. That is not the case. What do you think his exploratory committee did back in early 07? Do you think they scoured the internet seeing if people were "liking" his page? No, they made the phone calls, talked to the people who were in the trenches for years, and knew there was some level of existing support that they could count on and it would grow from there.

But you believe what you wish, sit around waiting for another Ron Paul before you can get excited again. Maybe you'll get lucky and there will be another one for you down the road.

 

[sailingaway]

Many in this thread don't want to participate in local races. How will we ever have a record to display and get the masses excited about if we the "tireless minority" don't work locally to get candidates elected?

How will our issues get any discussion or air/print time if we don't get people who will talk about 80% of them?

How will you ever get a record to excite the masses with Flakes? And civil liberties -- WHOLLY OMITTED from the 'liberty index' are not omittable. To say they messed up on one vote, but the entire Bill of Rights other than the 2d amendment? No thanks.

I'd love Ron Paul types at every level. I support all of our own who are going that route. But supporting 'just anyone' doesn't advance the ball in a direction I want to go.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

A candidate either supports the Constitution or he/she doesn't. There is no gray area here.

Why is this so hard? What would we expect Ron Paul to say about this?

The funny thing is that Mark Levin would say that in a second. Lip-service to the Constitution is meaningless now, as that is the deception that teo-cons are using to get support.

 

[gerryb]

A Congress FULL of Flakes would never get where I want to go, only Ron Pauls will do that.

Then frankly, we will never get to where you want to go without violent revolution and a lot of luck in the aftermath.

If every member in Congress agree'd with us on 80% of things, we would get 100% of what we want -- as long as there was enough difference in the 20% we disagree'd on.

There would never be a majority to pass a bad bill.

 

[tbone717]

so what? We energized millions and turned the youth to look at our ideas, or Ron did. Flake could never do that. That is what will grow it so we can get more Ron Pauls elected -- not Flakes.

A Congress FULL of Flakes would never get where I want to go, only Ron Pauls will do that.

I don't think anyone suggests that Flake is the second coming of Ron Paul. But many of us do realize that you need more Flakes so that when you have more Pauls they have the allies in Congress they can work with on the majority of issues.

 

[sailingaway]

No but you inferred that Ron Paul came out of nowhere and got to where he was today. That is not the case. What do you think his exploratory committee did back in early 07? Do you think they scoured the internet seeing if people were "liking" his page? No, they made the phone calls, talked to the people who were in the trenches for years, and knew there was some level of existing support that they could count on and it would grow from there.

But you believe what you wish, sit around waiting for another Ron Paul before you can get excited again. Maybe you'll get lucky and there will be another one for you down the road.

No, I never implied Paul came out of nowhere. I said people were energized because of who and what he is and always has been, that the more pale 'incremental on one point' candidates don't do the job, and that those candidates like Ron will excite response -- IF they are sincere and follow through.

 

[sailingaway]

I don't think anyone suggests that Flake is the second coming of Ron Paul. But many of us do realize that you need more Flakes so that when you have more Pauls they have the allies in Congress they can work with on the majority of issues.

but with only so many resources, my opinion is they need to be targeted on the good ones, thus incentivizing those, not given to those who serve other masters. Otherwise you get all this 'oh he can't come out for anything important because he needs the support of X' and we, who should be supporting only those who support OUR issues have given our leverage away by supporting tools.

 

[cajuncocoa]

The funny thing is that Mark Levin would say that in a second. Lip-service to the Constitution is meaningless now, as that is the deception that teo-cons are using to get support.

You're right. That's why we need more than lip-service when WE put our support behind certain candidates.

 

[cajuncocoa]

tbone, if you want to support Flake, go ahead....open up your checkbook and write him a big fat check (as you said this morning).

But remember: the lesser between two evils is still evil.

 

[gerryb]

You're right. That's why we need more than lip-service when WE put our support behind certain candidates.

Who are you supporting, then? You said there is no one in your state you can support. Which I find very hard to believe since LA had one of our best organizations out of all the states in 08 and in 2012.

 

[sailingaway]

Then frankly, we will never get to where you want to go without violent revolution and a lot of luck in the aftermath.

If every member in Congress agree'd with us on 80% of things, we would get 100% of what we want -- as long as there was enough difference in the 20% we disagree'd on.

There would never be a majority to pass a bad bill.

that 80% is crap imho. If the 20% is the important stuff and 70% is naming post offices it is meaningless. And an index that leaves out civil liberties is complete trash, even if you consider civil liberties only 20%. Does that mean you'd support someone who actively pushed for concentration camps -- instead of just voting for things like NDAA which would allow them? So long as they wanted to audit the Fed?

 

[talkingpointes]

To all you people saying the purist will get you no-where. DID YOU FORGET WHAT FUCKING FORUM YOU'RE ON ? Ron Paul Forums aka RPF's aka Real Principles First.

You can be a king for a day in exchange to be a fool for a lifetime.

 

[cajuncocoa]

No, most likely he tried to get involved, and saw that everyone attending meetings, volunteering for candidates, in control of the levers of power such as various local republican committees(precinct, county, legislative district, congressional district, etc.), was a neocon or liberal buffoon.

He saw the results of the last election when a guy like Flake ran and didn't garner much support vs. a totally statist candidate... Obviously that location supports statism and there's no hope for a different candidate.

We need to be out there showing there is support for our ideas. Promoting the positions of candidates that we agree with, and moving them our direction on the ones we don't.

So he was frustrated that everyone else was either a neocon or liberal buffoon? Welcome to my world. Maybe you should be telling him to "suck it up" instead of me. He's the one who wants to run for office after all. If he wants to run, he's going to need bigger gonads.

I HAVE been out there showing support for our ideas. I'm not going to go down the list of things I've done to grovel for your approval. You'll just have to take my word for it (it's been posted before FYI).

As for supporting statism, you can hardly support statism more than voting for the PATRIOT Act and NDAA, but we've been through all that.

Many in this thread don't want to participate in local races. How will we ever have a record to display and get the masses excited about if we the "tireless minority" don't work locally to get candidates elected?

How will our issues get any discussion or air/print time if we don't get people who will talk about 80% of them?

Everyone who wants to run for office isn't even a member of this board. But if they want support, they will have to crawl out from their comfort zone and make themselves known to those of us who are hungry to support them.

 

[gerryb]

that 80% is crap imho. If the 20% is the important stuff and 70% is naming post offices it is meaningless. And an index that leaves out civil liberties is complete trash, even if you consider civil liberties only 20%. Does that mean you'd support someone who actively pushed for concentration camps -- instead of just voting for things like NDAA which would allow them? So long as they wanted to audit the Fed?

I believe you are bad at math.

You think if we elect 435 members that agree with us on 80% of the issues, ALL of them will want the NDAA, TSA, etc. etc.? No, it will be a mish-mash of 20% that we disagree with, and nothing bad would move through to get passed. You'd have to find the place where the 20% bad overlaps enough that greater than 50% of the reps agree on it.... That will be a VERY small amount of things.

Look at the current example, members of congress are split 50/50 on most issues, but they compromise to get what everyone wants. So we get both more war and less civil liberties, combined with more regulation and less economic freedom.

When all the members of congress were on our side 80% of the time, that overlap would be almost non-existent, and there wouldn't be any deals to be made.

 

[AJ Antimony]

How will you ever get a record to excite the masses with Flakes?

I'd love Ron Paul types at every level. I support all of our own who are going that route. But supporting 'just anyone' doesn't advance the ball in a direction I want to go.

What masses are we talking about exactly? The only masses that really matter are voters. Voters vote for Jeff Flake. They don't vote for Ron Paul.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Who are you supporting, then? You said there is no one in your state you can support. Which I find very hard to believe since LA had one of our best organizations out of all the states in 08 and in 2012.

Believe it or not, there is not.

 

[cajuncocoa]

What masses are we talking about exactly? The only masses that really matter are voters. Voters vote for Jeff Flake. They don't vote for Ron Paul.

 

[misean]

I was kind of excited when I heard Flake's name earlier this year. He's good on congressional spending and taxes. I'm not so sure on much else. If I lived in AZ, I would vote for him and be happy that he's decent. He's light years better than Kyl, but I don't think he is good enough that people should commit limited resources to supporting him.