Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?

[cajuncocoa]

Again... a standard that should be held when we don't have 5 people in the Congress...

To me, it's a standard we should hold all the time.

 

[gerryb]

To me, it's a standard we should hold all the time.

Then we will continue on down the path of tyranny on every single issue, rather than turning the tide by building coalitions to move the liberty ball forward.

 

[cajuncocoa]

And as we've said -- What is the incentive for a "pure" liberty candidate to get involved? There is no support structure to encourage them to run and win. We need to build that structure.

Why do you think there is no incentive? I don't think that at all. I'd be interested in hearing why you do.

 

[tbone717]

To me, it's a standard we should hold all the time.

And in all honesty, if we did then we would never elect another candidate. Then the opposition wins, and let's see what will happen to your liberties then. Why do you think the neo-cons were able to infiltrate the GOP? Was it because libertarian minded people showed up at every county meeting, ran for local offices, raised money for state candidates, participated in tabling, did the GOTV drives, walked the neighborhoods for voter registration? Or was it because too many of us sat on the sidelines and felt they couldn't make a difference because no one was good enough to support anyway?

 

[cajuncocoa]

Then we will continue on down the path of tyranny on every single issue, rather than turning the tide by building coalitions to move the liberty ball forward.

Look, I get that you have to compromise on some things. But the PATRIOT Act? NDAA? There is NO ONE to be found who can run and did not support those bills? If we must compromise, let's compromise on smaller things, not the big things.

 

[sailingaway]

And in all honesty, if we did then we would never elect another candidate. Then the opposition wins, and let's see what will happen to your liberties then. Why do you think the neo-cons were able to infiltrate the GOP? Was it because libertarian minded people showed up at every county meeting, ran for local offices, raised money for state candidates, participated in tabling, did the GOTV drives, walked the neighborhoods for voter registration? Or was it because too many of us sat on the sidelines and felt they couldn't make a difference because no one was good enough to support anyway?

If we aren't particular, people won't see benefit in being pure and you are right, in that case we likely WILL never elect another good candidate. I'd rather grow our own 'Ron Paul's' if we need to.

As for the 'Ron doesn't demand purity' no, not to work with them, and we and Grayson worked together, but I sure wouldn't think a 'liberty organization' would donate to Grayson nor would I canvas for him, because we have so many issues where we are opposed. Same with Flake. Yet I would coordinate and work with EITHER of their supporters for an issue we both supported, such as auditing the Fed.

 

[tbone717]

Why do you think there is no incentive? I don't think that at all. I'd be interested in hearing why you do.

I''l bite, then I'm going to watch some Olympics.

There is no incentive because they do not have the backbone support and infrastructure at their disposal. I talked about this at great length, but the easiest thing any of us can do is run for country committee. The committee has the voter lists and the donor lists. They hand out the endorsements and can drive the vote to the candidate of their choosing. If we get elected to the committee, we can make the ground for liberty candidates far more fertile.

Ok folks. I'm going to go watch Phelps win his record medal. I hate when they are on with such a big time zone difference.

 

[cajuncocoa]

And in all honesty, if we did then we would never elect another candidate. Then the opposition wins, and let's see what will happen to your liberties then. Why do you think the neo-cons were able to infiltrate the GOP? Was it because libertarian minded people showed up at every county meeting, ran for local offices, raised money for state candidates, participated in tabling, did the GOTV drives, walked the neighborhoods for voter registration? Or was it because too many of us sat on the sidelines and felt they couldn't make a difference because no one was good enough to support anyway?

Maybe you overestimate the number of people in this country who truly want liberty. Maybe, just maybe, the neocons outnumber us.

 

[gerryb]

Why do you think there is no incentive? I don't think that at all. I'd be interested in hearing why you do.

Someone posted the progression previously.. Most candidates come from the bottom up, school board -> supervisor -> state house -> state senate -> Lt. Governor etc. etc.

The reason for that is they build a larger and larger network and volunteer/fundraising team.

Other times businessmen or other established/prominent people will decide to run because they feel the conditions are right for them to win -- such as a candidate that has similar views to them have done well in the past.

If you have a state house race between an establishment republican and a tea party candidate, and the establishment candidate trounces the tea party guy 80/20 -- there is likely no chance an organization can be scavenged to propel a liberty candidate to victory down the line. If however it is 55/45 -- that would be an encouraging result to a liberty candidate.

 

[sailingaway]

Look, I get that you have to compromise on some things. But the PATRIOT Act? NDAA? There is NO ONE to be found who can run and did not support those bills? If we must compromise, let's compromise on smaller things, not the big things.

I agree, how can you call yourself a liberty candidate and support indefinite detention of American citizens without trial? It is like saying, 'we should just overlook the dead bodies in Mr. Jones' yard, because he is such a card at poker games!'

Some things are pretty baseline.

I do agree we have to support at all levels, but not that we should compromise big principles for watered down candidates. I'd rather have fewer we could really push, to attract more people to our movement. Ron Paul is a Pied Piper, watered down candidates simply don't bring people in like that.

 

[brandon]

I just noticed this thread and am trying to understand why the title is the complete opposite of the first post. Was it edited?

 

[cajuncocoa]

I just noticed this thread and am trying to understand why the title is the complete opposite of the first post. Was it edited?

Yes.

 

[brandon]

Yes.

That's pretty bad internet etiquette. You'd think the mod could just give their opinion in the comments like the rest of us.

 

[libertskee]

I just noticed this thread and am trying to understand why the title is the complete opposite of the first post. Was it edited?

I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into the original Thread Title just to have it torn away from me : (

 

[sailingaway]

That's pretty bad internet etiquette. You'd think the mod could just give their opinion in the comments like the rest of us.

I didn't do it but I agree it wasn't ok to keep bumping on twitter and google as a Ron Paul thread something at least as many in the thread opposed as agreed with. If the OP wants to change the title to something that avoids that issue, I or another mod would be happy to change it.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Someone posted the progression previously.. Most candidates come from the bottom up, school board -> supervisor -> state house -> state senate -> Lt. Governor etc. etc.

The reason for that is they build a larger and larger network and volunteer/fundraising team.

Other times businessmen or other established/prominent people will decide to run because they feel the conditions are right for them to win -- such as a candidate that has similar views to them have done well in the past.

If you have a state house race between an establishment republican and a tea party candidate, and the establishment candidate trounces the tea party guy 80/20 -- there is likely no chance an organization can be scavenged to propel a liberty candidate to victory down the line. If however it is 55/45 -- that would be an encouraging result to a liberty candidate.

That doesn't tell me why there is no incentive to run. If they really are a true liberty candidate, and there are liberty activists hungry for such a candidate (not a "faux" liberty candidate like Flake) he/she will get votes and donations. What's the problem?

 

[libertskee]

As I suggested earlier, how about "Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?". That is the question being debated.

 

[gerryb]

That doesn't tell me why there is no incentive to run. If they really are a true liberty candidate, and there are liberty activists hungry for such a candidate (not a "faux" liberty candidate like Flake) he/she will get votes and donations. What's the problem?

The problem is candidates don't materialize without support. How do they know there are liberty activists hungry for a candidate? Everyone was sitting home waiting for a "pure" candidate.

Demand comes before supply.

 

[cajuncocoa]

As I suggested earlier, how about "Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?". That is the question being debated.

Maybe send a PM to the mod who changed it...your suggestion might be getting buried in the back-and-forth comments getting posted.

 

[sailingaway]

As I suggested earlier, how about "Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?". That is the question being debated.

OK, I didn't see that.

I changed it.