Why the Constitution Party opposes both the fair tax and the income tax

Income taxes are the worst in terms of economic disruption and a VAT is probably the least, but whatever the tax system is, should there be an actual tax system, it should collect so few taxes that the damage done is negligible.

I disagree. VAT is much worse than everything else because it is hidden. Property taxes are the least bad, at least in NH, because the voters themselves decide property taxes by voting on them, of course, all taxes are bad but VAT is the worst because it is hidden so it can be increased without people getting upset. In face, people might think that it is companies increasing taxes and support government more the more the government increases the VAT.

Of course, there are 20 communities in NH without property, sales or income taxes.
 
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I disagree. VAT is much worse than everything else because it is hidden. Property taxes are the least bd, at least in NH, because the voters themselves decide property taxes by voting on them.of course, all taxes are bad but VAT is the worst because it is hidden so it can be increased without people getting upset. In face, people might think that it is companies increasing taxes and support government mor the more the government increases the VAT.

I'm not sure why you would claim a VAT is hidden: when you go to buy something, in fact anything, it has the tax on it and most likely listed. I think you might have a misunderstanding of what a VAT is.

Regardless, a broad-based VAT is the least disruptive tax as far as the market goes.
 
The VAT is hidden on purpose. But how about another option? In much in NH there is no property, income or sales tax.
 
The VAT is hidden on purpose. But how about another option? In much in NH there is no property, income or sales tax.

I can think of no country that has a hidden VAT. Every country I know of that has a VAT, it's included on the bill. You're in NH - go to Canada and buy something and you'll see it listed on the receipt. As for property taxes, that creates a disincentive to create capital within the tax jurisdiction, so it distorts the economy to create an import advantage.
 
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The Dangers Of Value-Added Tax
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/15/ta...ions-tax-day-10-columnists-wesbury-stein.html

But the VAT is a hidden tax. Under a VAT the extra cost of the tax will be embedded in the prices we pay as consumers, which obscures the price we as individuals are forking over to support government. With a VAT, there will be no annual day, no moment, when we have a chance to reflect on the enormity of the amounts being expropriated.

And what happens in every country with a VAT is that the hidden nature of the tax means it consistently moves higher. How do you pluck a chicken? “One feather at a time” is the answer. With a VAT, there is less squawk per feather, so more feathers will be pulled, generating even more money for government. Because it’s a hidden tax, it is a very effective tax.

So no matter how much pain April 15 brings, remember that the alternative is a hidden tax that would increase the burden, but take away the one day when so many American’s unite in the shared pain of paying for things that they did not ask for–and don’t even want.


The Case Against The VAT
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/22/vat-taxes-economy-opinions-columnists-bruce-bartlett.html
We must repeal the 16th Amendment first in order to avoid having both a VAT and an income tax. Columnist George Will made this the centerpiece of his case against the VAT in a recent column. It’s a silly argument because, contrary to popular belief, Congress was not prohibited from taxing incomes prior to the 16th Amendment. As historian David Levenstam explains in the libertarian magazine Reason, the Supreme Court struck down an income tax enacted in 1894 on narrow grounds and did not find the taxation of incomes to be unconstitutional.

While it is reasonable to say that it might be a bad idea to tax both consumption and incomes, repealing the 16th Amendment would provide no guarantee against this happening. We would not only have to get rid of that amendment, but enact another one that clearly, unambiguously prohibits–immune from court challenge–the federal government from taxing incomes. This is impossible, if only because the definition of income is so elastic.

The VAT is a hidden tax. This is also a silly argument. The VAT is no more hidden than any other tax. Ask yourself, do you really know what the sales tax rate is in your state or the property tax rate in your community or even what your effective federal income tax rate was last year? (Guess and then check; more than likely you overestimated all of them quite a lot.). According to polls, most people have no idea. The chances are far better that those who pay the VAT in other countries can tell you precisely what the rate is because it covers such a wide array of goods and services and is the same throughout the country.

Even if the VAT were an especially hidden tax, is there any reason to believe that hidden taxes are more easily increased than more visible taxes? Indeed, there is none. Economist Casey Mulligan, a VAT opponent, recently looked for evidence and could find none. He concluded that “tax visibility is empirically unrelated to the amount of taxation and government spending.”

The VAT is too complicated and will be riddled with exemptions. This is a weak argument because all taxes are complicated. They’re complicated because people don’t like paying them, which then requires governments to continually plug new loopholes and evasion tactics that people are always discovering, and because Congress is continually meddling with the tax code to buy votes and redress legitimate grievances.

While a VAT would indeed be tricky to implement, once in place it is not especially complicated, certainly no more than the retail sales taxes that exist in almost every state. One reason I support a VAT is because so many other countries have one that we could learn from their experience and avoid making our VAT unnecessarily complicated.

The VAT is inflationary. While it is true that imposition of a VAT will more than likely raise the price level by about the amount of the tax, this is not what economists normally think of as inflation. That would be a continuing rise in the price level year after year resulting primarily from excessive money creation by the central bank. Any rise in prices resulting from imposition of a VAT would be a one-time event that would have no effect on the general trend of inflation.

The VAT is a money machine. This is probably the biggest problem most conservatives have with the VAT. In their minds, its primary virtue–the ability to raise large amounts of revenue at low deadweight cost (the output lost to taxation over and above the tax itself)–is also its primary vice. If taxes are insufficiently burdensome, conservatives reckon, then they will be too easy to raise. To keep taxes low, they believe we should raise them in the most painful and burdensome manner possible.


The Value Added Tax
by Steve Elwart, IDB Folio Specialist
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2010/927/print/

The VAT is similar to a sales tax except that it is a tax that is levied at each stage of production. A sales tax is levied only when it is sold to the ultimate consumer. The advantage of a VAT is that it is a “hidden tax” that is not readily apparent to the consumer. The less visible a tax, the more tax revenue can be collected without complaints from the voters.

For example, the average total tax on gasoline in the United States is $0.47 per gallon (€0.094 per liter).7 Most consumers are unaware of this because it is included in the price of the gasoline. This tax, like all hidden taxes, shifts the blame of the tax costs from the government to the retailer. In the case above, the government is not blamed for siphoning off revenue without taking any of the risks associated with running an oil company; the higher costs are the fault of “greedy oil companies.”

In a strange turn of events, on April 19 the White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said, “This is not something the President has proposed, nor is it under consideration.”8 Two days later, President Barack Obama suggested that a new Value Added Tax on Americans is still on the table.9 In Washington, this type of behavior on the part of an administration means that plans are being made to seriously propose a pro-gram.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said on PBS’s “The Charlie Rose Show” that “it’s fair to look at” the VAT as part of an overhaul of the nation’s tax code. “I would say, ‘Put every-thing on the table and subject it to the scrutiny that it deserves.’” Pelosi told Rose when asked if the VAT has any appeal to her.10 The Presidents’ advisors are suggesting up to a 5% VAT as a start.


VAT on insurance and financial services
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/vat_insurance/

The European Commission has adopted a proposal for a Directive (COM/2007/747pdf(58 Kb) ) aiming at modernising and simplifying the complex VAT rules for financial and insurance services and securing a level playing field in the pan-EU market for these services as far as VAT is concerned. These services are generally exempt from VAT but the exemption dates from 1977 and the legislation has not kept abreast of developments since then. Today, the exemption is not applied uniformly by the Member States and thus frequently the European Court of Justice has been asked to fill the legislative gap and clarify the correct interpretation. The proposal will create more certainty and security for Member States and for financial and insurance institutions by setting clear modern definitions of exempt services. It will also allow these institutions to manage the costs of non deductible VAT by allowing them to opt for taxation and by clarifying and extending the tax exemption for cost sharing arrangements.

The proposal follows a three fold objective:

to increase legal certainty for all concerned, from the business sector to national tax administrations and thereby reduce their administrative burden in correctly applying the VAT provisions on their services;
to ensure a more consistent application of the tax and deliver a level playing field in the internal market, at least as far as VAT is concerned;
to allow businesses to manage better the impact of non-deductible VAT on their activities



These objectives will be achieved by the three measures contained in the proposal:

Redefinition of the scope of the exempt services to ensure that the exemption better reflects the complexity and diversity of the modern industries. The proposal for a Directive is accompanied by a proposal for a Regulation (COM/2007/746pdf(66 Kb) ) which expands the definitions of exempt services and will apply directly in all Member States;
Possibility for banking and insurance companies to opt to tax their services if they wish. Such an option to tax already exists in the VAT Directive but is currently at the discretion of Member States and not widely used. Its limited availability today is potentially distortive and should therefore be equally accessible across the Community. This will allow institutions to reduce their exposure to non-recoverable tax, in particular in business to business activities. VAT taxable persons clients of bank and insurance companies will also reduce their costs as they will be able to deduct the VAT paid on financial and insurance services
Introduction of an industry specific exemption from VAT on cost sharing arrangements, including those which are cross border. This will enable institutions to pool their operations and to share costs between the group members without creating additional non-recoverable VAT.

For further information see the "Frequently asked questions" (MEMO/07/519 ), the impact assessment (SEC/2007/1554pdf(376 Kb) ) and its summary (SEC/2007/1555pdf(211 Kb) ).
Background

Current VAT current legislation exempts financial services and insurances. Because institutions cannot recover VAT on their purchases of services or goods, this creates "hidden VAT" charges in supplies which financial and insurance companies provide to other businesses. They cannot deduct this input VAT on services or goods (e.g. outsourced services or computers) supplied to them because the services they supply themselves, are exempt. Their charges to customers will therefore reflect this VAT cost and, as it cannot be recovered by business customers, cascades through the system increasing the operating costs of EU business and cost of the goods and services they themselves supply.

VAT should not generate unnecessary obstacles to the achievement of an integrated, open, efficient and competitive market for financial services. Efficient markets for financial services and insurances will benefit European business and consumers. VAT should be applied in a manner consistent with a level playing field.

Furthermore, the growing list of cases handled by the European Court of Justice in the recent years in this area of VAT demonstrates that there is an imperative need to modernise the legislation in line with the current development in the markets.
 
Without reading through all the dribble, go to Canada and buy something. You'll see the VAT listed on the receipt. How can that be a "hidden tax"? It's the most visible tax there is. Do you know when you are earning your paycheck how much tax you are going to pay on that income? Not really, unless you are making so little as to not be subject to income tax. When you buy gas do you know how much you are paying in gasoline excise taxes? No, not unless you do some research and work out the percentages. When you buy something in a jurisdiction with a VAT, at least the jurisdictions I know of, the tax is listed right there on the receipt. How does that become a "hidden tax" to you?
 


I saw no income, sales or property tax. That's the New Hampshire model and it works well.


It might seem fine, and as long as taxes are kept very low the tax structure won't matter all that much, but property taxes distort the market in favor of people having property outside the tax jurisdiction.

Say for instance you want to start a widget factory to service the widget needs of NH. Well, given the capital costs of producing widgets and the relative small size of NH, you might very well build your factory in a neighboring state to avoid the taxes. Now, if there was a VAT in NH, it would not matter weather the factory was located within NH or outside NH as the tax collected would be the same. That is why VATs are considered to be the least distortionary type of tax.
 
It might seem fine, and as long as taxes are kept very low the tax structure won't matter all that much, but property taxes distort the market in favor of people having property outside the tax jurisdiction.

Say for instance you want to start a widget factory to service the widget needs of NH. Well, given the capital costs of producing widgets and the relative small size of NH, you might very well build your factory in a neighboring state to avoid the taxes. Now, if there was a VAT in NH, it would not matter weather the factory was located within NH or outside NH as the tax collected would be the same. That is why VATs are considered to be the least distortionary type of tax.
Except property taxes in NH are decided by the voters who are the government in NH and much of NH doesn't even have property taxes. Property taxes are the most noticeable, at least to property owners. Whereas, VAT taxes are completely hidden. They are 100% opposite in that way.
 
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Again, this gets down to what 'direct' means.

Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 states:



I think that the FF were using the literal definition of 'direct' as your legal definition came about by judges making distinctions. Going with the rather obscure reasoning that the courts have used to get around apportionment in the discussion of policy is less than useful. Much of what has been deemed 'legal' these days by federal courts I would argue is in fact illegal and very much against the intent of the FF. Witness the abuse of the interstate commerce clause. IMHO the FF were referring specifically to and only about actual interstate commerce (IE commercial goods crossing state lines) rather than anything that could possibly effect the interstate market, as courts have adopted in the past 100 or so years. So regardless of what courts have interpreted 'interstate commerce' to be, to me it still means and only means the act of engaging in commerce that spans state borders.

So that being said, I think the definition of a "direct tax" is the literal one, even when discussing the US Constitution as I do not believe Madison was trying to be too clever by half, like some lawyers, politicians and judges are.
Yup. This kind of thing is why Constitutionalists need to come up with a sound legal theory. (See my thread on my challenge to Constitutionalists to create a legal theory for Constitutionalism. :) )
 
Except property taxes in NH are decided by the voters who are the government in NH and much of NH doesn't even have property taxes. Property taxes are the most noticeable, at least to property owners. Whereas, VAT taxes are completely hidden. They are 100% opposite in that way.


Neg rep for stating the truth? Really, are you that fucking stupid or are you just playing the part? Again, tell me exactly HOW ARE VATs HIDDEN WHEN IT'S PRINTED OUT FOR YOU WHEN YOU BUY SOMETHING?
 
Those court cases, if you read them, have nothing to do with the constitutionality of a tax on the private sector receipts.

They won't touch that subject.

You have it wrong. It's Hendrickson who won't touch the subject, because the illegal income cases prove beyond doubt that his claim that only income from federally-privileged activities is taxable is 100% B.S.

If the questions on that referred to website are nonsense, then debunk them, here. Or better yet, where the tax scholars hang out: http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/index.php Come on over, or will you feign that you will be censored there? You are preaching to the uninformed here and scaring them back into the fraud, but your days are numbered.

Tax scholars? LOL!!!!! The morons who post on LH have a collective tax law IQ of -73. And if you don't think Pete censors anything that's not lockstep with his idiotic delusions, I have an orange bridge in the Bay Area for sale.

The federal jurisdiction is limited. No one can dispute that.

Why is a Chinese person paid by someone in the US with Federal Reserve Notes not taxed? Open your eyes.

The Constitution specifies only one thing (exports) Congress can't tax, and you will search in vain for any exemption for private-sector pay. And what makes you think that a Chinese person getting paid in the U.S. isn't subject to the income tax (it's quite irrelevant what medium he gets paid in)?
 
The minute you let lawyers and judges start to define what the meaning of the term 'direct' is, you are lost. They did so for financial reason rather than any economic or sensible rational.

Who else is going to determine the meaning of "direct tax"? The three Hylton justices who were members of the Constitutional Convention didn't know what it meant?

So the Hylton justices had financial reasons for upholding the carriage tax? What were they? And why is it bad to have a financial reason but it's OK to have an economic reason?
 
Who else is going to determine the meaning of "direct tax"? The three Hylton justices who were members of the Constitutional Convention didn't know what it meant?

So the Hylton justices had financial reasons for upholding the carriage tax? What were they? And why is it bad to have a financial reason but it's OK to have an economic reason?

The term was used by Adam Smith, who wrote the first formal treatise on economics and was a contemporary of Madison. When it comes to descriptive meanings, I think one should use the general or colloquial use of the word whenever possible and unless you clarify the meaning (which was not done in USC), one should take that use of the word when it was written. If you want clarity of what Madison most likely meant by the term "direct taxes", a more proper source would be Smith's writings, since they predated Madison's USC and were done on the subject as scientific inquiry rather than tricky lawyering.

As for the financial reasons, taken broadly and in the general use of the words, the term "direct taxes" would pretty much preclude much of the taxing power of the US federal government. If you look at the Federalist Papers and other documents of the time, not everyone in the group that comprised the CC was of the same mind that the federal government should be so restrained as Madison thought it should be. The dissecting of the term "direct" to limit it to property and capitation defies any reasonable explanation, so obviously they had their own agendas that they were following.

Again, just because there is legal precedent does not mean that one should substitute common sense with legal mumbo-jumbo. Yeah, if you are going to argue before the SCOTUS, narrowing in on the term "direct taxes" as litigated before federal courts might be useful, but just because the federal courts have adopted a term to mean such does not mean that reasonable people should follow suit. If that were the case, we would have to accept that the interpretation granted to the interstate commerce clause was correct and that to suggest otherwise is somehow ignorance on the part of the individual.
 
Income taxes are the worst in terms of economic disruption and a VAT is probably the least, but whatever the tax system is, should there be an actual tax system, it should collect so few taxes that the damage done is negligible.

Tariffs.
 
You have it wrong. It's Hendrickson who won't touch the subject, because the illegal income cases prove beyond doubt that his claim that only income from federally-privileged activities is taxable is 100% B.S.

Can you cite an illegal income case were a defendant specifically claims that the income is not taxable because it was not federally derived? If you can great. If you can't then your argument holds no merit and you're just blowing smoke. I say this as someone who understands the law, not as someone who is a "tax protestor". If you don't raise a defense then you've waived the defense whether you had a legitimate defense or not. A judge will not practice law for you. If you could have a case thrown out because of the statute of limitations, for example, but you don't raise that defense then it is waived and you can't say later after you've lost "Well this was barred by the statute of limitations anyway.
 
I disagree. VAT is much worse than everything else because it is hidden. Property taxes are the least bad, at least in NH, because the voters themselves decide property taxes by voting on them, of course, all taxes are bad but VAT is the worst because it is hidden so it can be increased without people getting upset. In face, people might think that it is companies increasing taxes and support government more the more the government increases the VAT.

Of course, there are 20 communities in NH without property, sales or income taxes.

I am not a fan of a VAT, as you mentioned because its hidden...hidden taxes are not right... however, I still think a property tax is the worst possible tax you can have for the simple reason that by taxing property, means there are no individual property rights. It means the government owns your property and will lease it out to you for a certain amount each year. No matter if its a small amount or a lot, it still means you do not own your own property and, in my humble opinion, without absolute property rights, we have no rights at all....

While VAT may suck and be hidden, it is a tax that you do not have to pay...if you want to buy a piece of land in the middle of nowhere and grow your own food or barter with others and live a self-sufficient lifestyle you can do so with a VAT in place... try to do that with a property tax...I dont care if you have no mortgage at all and have lived in your house that you built with your own hands for over 50 years... if you dont pay your property taxes they will throw you out on your rear... thats just shameful.
 
I keep hearing that a VAT is hidden. Can someone please explain how it's hidden because I lived in a VAT jurisdiction and it was the most apparent tax of all the taxes out there.
 
I keep hearing that a VAT is hidden. Can someone please explain how it's hidden because I lived in a VAT jurisdiction and it was the most apparent tax of all the taxes out there.


I agree. Inflation is a hidden tax.

Good or Bad, what makes the VAT a hidden tax?
 
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