Why is the religion that you practice superior to all other religions?

Yes, that's right. Salvation is dependent on God's will, not man's:

AB, you agree then that those who choose the wrong path, that it was God Who made them choose that path, and therefore God is responsible for the evils they do. This is blasphemous. You can keep trying to use your misinterptation of Romans 9 to justify your innovative, progressive, alternative and contradictory belief, but you do so at the expense of the Gospel which Christ preached and frankly I am done trying to help you see the errors of your ways. Best of luck and may God, Who wills ALL to be saved, have mercy on you and help you before you lead others into perdition by assinging evil to God.
 
Interesting thread. What comes to my mind is that the bulk of us are debating written texts and external data basically. Our "Gnostic Christian" friend (quote tags not used in a negative light) rightly pointed out that the Kingdom of the Most High God is in you.. and I would add that *if* you are one of His people, then The Kingdom is within you...

I would point out that (in my experience) the Christian Bible doesn't tell so much how to be a "Christian" as it does confirm who you are - if you really are one. A true convert of Christ Jesus, the son of the God of Issac, Abraham and Jacob... will be a living epistle, a living example of what the Bible relays to us about being one of His.

It seems this is where the Christian Faith differs from all others (so far as I know). Christ Jesus will change you.. not you changing yourself.. and the result of it is freely evident in the life of a believer.

Knowing God is vastly different than knowing about God. jus' sayin'
If you haven't read it yet, you may be interested in "The Kingdom Of God Is Within You", by Leo Tolstoy. http://www.amazon.com/The-Kingdom-G...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1331929393&sr=1-1

(fair warning: Tolstoy is generally considered heretical for this and other writings, and was excommunicated from the Russian Orthodox church-and remains excommunicated, AFAIK)
 
AB, you agree then that those who choose the wrong path, that it was God Who made them choose that path, and therefore God is responsible for the evils they do. This is blasphemous. You can keep trying to use your misinterptation of Romans 9 to justify your innovative, progressive, alternative and contradictory belief, but you do so at the expense of the Gospel which Christ preached and frankly I am done trying to help you see the errors of your ways. Best of luck and may God, Who wills ALL to be saved, have mercy on you and help you before you lead others into perdition by assinging evil to God.


Paul already answers you in Romans 9. He says "Is there injustice with God? May it never be!". And then he goes on to says that God has mercy on whom He mercies and hardens whom He hardens. God's mercy cannot be demanded. If anything, His JUSTICE should be demanded...and in that case we all would be condemned.

We are not ascribing evil TO God, but proclaiming that He brings good out of the evil of men. God decreed that Judas would betray Jesus AND made him responsible for his own willful choice.

To say that God "wills all people to be saved", but some people don't get saved is to say that God is not omnipotent. That is not the God of the Bible.
 
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" Luke 13:34


And spare me your revisionist Calvinistic explanation for this verse which goes counter to the understanding of this verse from the very beginning. You ignore the verses that go counter to your innovative doctrines and if that fails, then you twist them around to justify the innovative, progressive, alternative and contradictory beliefs which you have accepted to be true, even as it flies in the face of the witness of the Church from the beginning.
 
Why is paul more important than christ? Why are christians so caught up in Pauls letters instead of christ's words?
 
So basically you're saying: "My religion is the one true religion because the Bible says so."

Correction-because he says that it is what the Bible says. Now whether the Bible actually says that is irrelevant as long as he can claim it does. Like how liberals can claim the Constitution authorizes them to regulate raw milk through teh interstate commerce clause. It's irrelevant whether The Constitution's clause actually allows them to regulate raw milk, only that they can claim it does as a justification for their beliefs and actions.
 
Paul already answers you in Romans 9. He says "Is there injustice with God? May it never be!". And then he goes on to says that God has mercy on whom He mercies and hardens whom He hardens. God's mercy cannot be demanded. If anything, His JUSTICE should be demanded...and in that case we all would be condemned.

We are not ascribing evil TO God, but proclaiming that He brings good out of the evil of men. God decreed that Judas would betray Jesus AND made him responsible for his own willful choice.

To say that God "wills all people to be saved", but some people don't get saved is to say that God is not omnipotent. That is not the God of the Bible.

So its just if I force you to rape and murder your children and then put you on trial and execute you for it? How is that justice? If anything that is tyranny. Its slavery. Its evil. Yet this is exactly what you claim God does to us.

Proclaiming God can cause good to come from the actions of evil is not the same as claiming God is the will behind all actions. In fact to claim He can make good come from evil means that He cannot be the causer of the original evil action. Otherwise He isn't turning good from evil but just making it all work out like a puzzle. He is causing both evil and good.

Your claim that it means God is omnipotent if He wills all should be saved, but not all are saved, is also wrong. That is only the case in your belief where God is the only will. That He is all-powerful but doesn't enslave you to Him is the truth. He leaves you the gift of your agency to choose to follow and serve Him, and thus grow form the experience. That some choose not to in no way limit's God's omnipotence. It means He loves you enough to allow you to live your life as you would.

And if all will is ultimately nothing more than God's will then every single action is ultimate attributable to God. After all, I would never swear, steal, commit adultery, or worship false gods if God didn't make me. And all those things are clearly sins and therefore evil. Yet I didn't do those things. God did them through me. It is Him sinning, not I. Not only does your belief make God the originator of sin, it makes Him the prime sinner. Even Satan is doing no more than God's will. Its not Satan's fault he is evil. Its God who is evil acting His will through the guise of Satan.

Also you clearly do not understand how justice and mercy inter-relate. God's justice demands punishment for sins. Christ took that punishment upon Himself. This frees us form the condemnation of justice and saves us through the grace of mercy. Justice is satisfied by Christ being punished for our sins, and we are purified and made sinless by the same sacrifice. Thus His justice is fully satisfied and we are saved.
 
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“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" Luke 13:34


And spare me your revisionist Calvinistic explanation for this verse which goes counter to the understanding of this verse from the very beginning. You ignore the verses that go counter to your innovative doctrines and if that fails, then you twist them around to justify the innovative, progressive, alternative and contradictory beliefs which you have accepted to be true, even as it flies in the face of the witness of the Church from the beginning.

I think what AB is saying (that I happen to agree with), is that God's door is always open, but you must choose to walk through it. God's ways are not our ways, if He hardens someone He probably has an all-knowing reason. I don't think you can "blame" AB for saying "it's all on God" no more than we can blame you for saying "it's all on man". If men could save themselves, Christ paid a horrible price for nothing. If God alone saved us (even if it was against our wishes), then free will has no place either.

Think of it like a contract (covenant). There are two parties in the contract, and each party holds up to their end of the bargain for the contract to be filled.
 
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Why is paul more important than christ? Why are christians so caught up in Pauls letters instead of christ's words?

If that was the standard (its not) then you would have no reason not to believe the doctrines of grace, because Jesus clearly taught the doctrines of grace. I was going to start a thread and post all the verses where Jesus teaches election and predestination. There are MANY of them.:)

Here is a couple off the top of my head:

John 6:44 NASB

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Matthew 11:25 NASB

At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.


There are so many, especially in John. :)
 
Yes. Because we are dead in sin, God must make us alive and give us the power to believe. We cannot do this on our own. Left to our own nature, we will always never choose God. God must take out our heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh to believe. We are saved by grace, not anything within ourselves.

I will attest to this.

God presented Himself to me several times and I turned away and I hardened up again. Thank God He came again and this time I obeyed. His Grace gives me the means, I just "follow The Leader". It's all severely simple!
 
Yet I didn't do those things. God did them through me. It is Him sinning, not I. Not only does your belief make God the originator of sin, it makes Him the prime sinner.

It is my understanding that sin is not an action, it is a condition. Sin is separation from God...how can God separate himself from himself? Is not man sinful by his very existence? If God creates morality, then why is he bound by it? Isn't he bound only by his revealed word? Hasn't he destroyed all the flesh he has created? Who are we to judge? Life is brutally short and painful...God, who created time but is outside of it... who sees all things at once, past present, future, in an instant? Who knows all choices we will make, before we've made them? Everything is at once and eternal always.
 
Because my Religion invented the Kama Sutra.

images


/thread.

for me at least ;)

I know what I said but sheesh why ya'll keep squabbling over minutia is beyond me.

God is love.

So long as we all agree on that then I'm cool with you ;)

Alas where I will find my personal salvation is no longer clear, but I'm still looking...

 
I dislike the word "superior". I believe my church to be the only true and living church upon the Earth. But I do not believe that makes us "superior". We are all sinners and imperfect before God. Thus none of us are "superior" to one another.

But as to the question of why I believe the church I am a member of, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is Christ's true church upon the Earth? There are doctrinal reasons. For example, Paul taught that Christ's church was "built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." (Ephesians 2:20) The foundation of a building is its most important part. If the foundation is strong the building will stand. If the foundation is compromised though, it is only a matter of time before the building falls. Anciently the corner stone was the part that the rest of the foundation was measured from. If the cornerstone was askew, the foundation would be as well. If the corner stone was straight, so would be the rest of the building. Paul tells us the foundation for the Church of Jesus Christ anciently were His Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Himself being the cornerstone, or chief part.

Nothing in the Bible says that foundation of apostles and prophets and Christ would ever be altered. In fact in indicates the opposite. Paul said this foundation was "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ", or in other words for the work of the gospel and that it would last "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-15) So that foundation would endure and lead until all people were united in the one Christian faith, were perfect, and became fully like Christ. Needless to say that time has not come, and therefore that foundation should still exist.

It is part of the message of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that the Biblical warnings of "a falling away" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) of the ancient Church of Christ, of a "famine of hearing the words of God" (Amos 8:11-12), of the rise of false teachers who taught "damning heresies" (2 Peter 2:1-2, but really the entire chapter) did occur. The original Church of Jesus Christ was lost. The people corrupted the faith, as evidenced by every epistle Paul ever wrote (which had the express purpose of calling the apostate churches back to the truth), their leaders rejected and persecuted the prophets and apostles (3 John 1:9-11 has an especially good example of this) and lost the fulness of the gospel.


It is also part of our message that this situation did not continue forever. In the spring of 1820 a young boy, Joseph Smith went into a small grove of trees near his house. His intention was to ask God which church he should go to. It was something that had bothered him for a long time. There were so many churches teaching so many things, all claiming to be based solely on the Bible, that it confused him. So after a time of reading the Holy Bible for an answer he came across a verse of scripture, James 1:5, that promised if anyone needs an answer to a question that god will give them that answer through prayer. He said that this verse of scripture entered into his heart "with great force" and "I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible." So he did the Christian thing and asked God.

The answer he received was undoubtedly one he never expected. Kneeling down, he bowed himself and uttered his first vocal prayer. He called upon God for an answer. In answer he says, "I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" (Joseph Smith-History 1:16-17) In that grove of trees, God the Father and the Savior Jesus Christ came personally in vision to Joseph Smith. The Father introduced His Son, Jesus, and Christ counseled the young boy. Joseph was told he was to join none of the churches because while there were many good people who were in them, none of them had the fulness of the gospel anymore and had made grievous errors in understand the scriptures, ending up teaching the doctrines of man as opposed the truths of God. Joseph was further told about his calling. God had a great work to do and he was to prepare himself for it. Then the vision ended. But the work was only beginning.

Through Joseph Smith God restored His church. He began by giving forth new scripture, The Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is a translation the Prophet Joseph Smith made by the power of God, of ancient records detailing a group of believers here on the American continent before white people came showing that God's saving work wasn't just to a small nation in the Middle East, but a worldwide effort at redemption of the whole human race. It even records a visit of Jesus Christ to these people, after His Resurrection and Ascension in the Old World. Along with this the revelations given to Joseph Smith, and a few of his prophetic successors, were gathered as the Doctrine and Covenants. The Church of Christ was restored as a new Prophet and new Apostles were called to lead it today under the direction of Jesus Christ Himself. Today it is still lead in this same way, with Thomas S. Monson as the current Prophet and leader of the church. God speaks today and gives us guidance for our lives in this modern age. He warns us, teaches us, and saves us. God is not silent nor doth He sleep. He does not leave us to wallow in ignorance or fight over scripture but gives us clear direction and teaching through his modern Prophet and Twelve Apostles.

(To read more of Joseph Smith's story: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng)

But all this is doctrine. And really even then this is just a small sampling of the doctrine present in the Holy Bible, lost to Christianity, and restored in our day in their fulness as part of the "restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21) This is what I believe. You asked how do I know its true. That is something related but different.

How do I know its true? In the Book of Mormon the ancient American prophet Moroni (More-own-eye)wrote concerning knowing the truth of something "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." This is how I know. When I first came across the church, I listened to its message. I read from the Book of Mormon, studied its words, and pondered about what it (and they) meant and taught. Then truly wanting to know the answer, I asked God. I prayed to know if it was true or not. And He answered my prayer. The Holy Spirit fell upon me, touching my heart and mind. For the first time in my life I communicated with God. I felt the Spirit testify in my heart through feelings and in my mind, through my thoughts, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's true church upon the Earth today. I not only "feel 'in my heart and in my soul that [my religion] is the true path." but I know in my mind. This became the seed of my testimony, my witness, of the Restoration of the Gospel. Everything I have read and studied and prayed about since then has only confirmed and expanded this original truth.

And what does my church have for you? Well it is my testimony that you to can know all this as well. You do not have to take my word for it. We have missionaries that go out and meet with people and teach them what we believe. But more importantly they can teach you about prayer, how to pray, and how to recognize answers to your prayers so that you on your own can go before God and ask Him yourself if He is real and if this is what He wants for you. You can know of yourself if what I have said is true. You can know the purpose of life, why people exists, what happens after death, the Plan of Salvation, and much more. You can know God knows you, individually and distinctly, and loves you infinitely. You can know relief form the burden of sin and joy in salvation. All this will bring greater joy and knowledge and light and truth into your life more so than anything else, anywhere else, whatever else. This is what is offered you.

If you would like to ask any questions, feel free to message me. I doubt I'd see them on here. Posts get to easily lost on threads like this. That goes for anyone who reads this as well.
 
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It is my understanding that sin is not an action, it is a condition. Sin is separation from God...how can God separate himself from himself? Is not man sinful by his very existence? If God creates morality, then why is he bound by it? Isn't he bound only by his revealed word? Hasn't he destroyed all the flesh he has created? Who are we to judge? Life is brutally short and painful...God, who created time but is outside of it... who sees all things at once, past present, future, in an instant? Who knows all choices we will make, before we've made them? Everything is at once and eternal always.

Sin is an action that results in separation from God. For example, worshiping false gods is a sin. It causes separation from God because you do not know Him because you are spending your time worshiping something else.
 
I will attest to this.

God presented Himself to me several times and I turned away and I hardened up again. Thank God He came again and this time I obeyed. His Grace gives me the means, I just "follow The Leader". It's all severely simple!

This means though you do not agree with AB. He is saying God hardened you and softened you. You had no choice in it. The very fact that you believe it was your choice to listen to God or not means you disagree with AB.

That said, I'm glad you found faith.
 
AB, you agree then that those who choose the wrong path, that it was God Who made them choose that path, and therefore God is responsible for the evils they do. This is blasphemous. You can keep trying to use your misinterptation of Romans 9 to justify your innovative, progressive, alternative and contradictory belief, but you do so at the expense of the Gospel which Christ preached and frankly I am done trying to help you see the errors of your ways. Best of luck and may God, Who wills ALL to be saved, have mercy on you and help you before you lead others into perdition by assinging evil to God.

Its like ramming your head into a brick wall and about as useful.
 
Kinda funny, we are up to 78 posts in this thread, the OP was quickly banned for it, apparently. Mods are great...
 
So for me the Abrahamic line of religions is very powerful, and the last major religion claiming to be of Abrahamic origins is Islam, and it spoke of true monotheism where non Abrahamic religions tended to be polytheistic, and the major problem one has with polytheism is what's the point of God if there needs to be more than one, that means god isn't all powerful, and it makes the gods akin to man, we feel that over time once monotheistic religions corrupted, like the Arabs who followed Abraham and a central god "Allah", but introduced new gods.

Did you know that Vaishnavas, of which 70% of Hindus are, are completely monotheistic?

Little known fact.
 
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