Why government should always have more power than private business.

You are in a paradigm of the current situation of heavy government involvement in businesses. Most here are responding how it could be different (and better).

It is like arguing for gay marriage, instead of eliminating any government advantage to being married in the first place and thus true fairness for all.
 
Let's say that I inherit a ton of money. I decide to invest it in a restaurant somewhere, and maybe I've never been there, doesn't even matter. So I give the money to someone who wants to start a restaurant. Well, a restaurant doesn't run itself, right? We need workers. So we hire some desperate people to do boring, monotonous, stressful work (cooking, cleaning, serving, dealing with annoying customers all day, etc.) And so long as they keep working, and so long as customers keep coming, I, the investor, keep making money, whether I am doing any work or not. Part of the value produced by the worker's labor is siphoned off so that I keep making money. I can then invest money all over the place, reaping profits from my investments, and if I don't want to, I never have to work again! Isn't capitalism wonderful? (And I want more money! Cut the workers' wages! And if I hear one peep about a union you're ALL FIRED!)

That actually goes both ways. Many/most small businesses aren't individually funded, and are actually funded by a group of investors.

It's become harder to invest now, for a few reasons:
1) Fewer small business startups, thanks to regulations
2) Investing in larger business usually means the stock market, and that:
a) Is severely unstable thanks to the business cycle created by the Federal Reserve (and by extension, the government)
b) Many industries tend to fluctuate greatly based on what handouts and privileges a company is expected or not expected to receive from the government

Not to mention it becomes very difficult to save money to invest with to begin with, thanks to inflation and the above factors. T-bonds, previously used as a reliable investment, now have zero purpose for investing as they sell at or near 0%, and are used nearly exclusively for the movement of money between governments and the Federal Reserve
 
Let's say that I inherit a ton of money. I decide to invest it in a restaurant somewhere, and maybe I've never been there, doesn't even matter. So I give the money to someone who wants to start a restaurant. Well, a restaurant doesn't run itself, right? We need workers. So we hire some desperate people to do boring, monotonous, stressful work (cooking, cleaning, serving, dealing with annoying customers all day, etc.) And so long as they keep working, and so long as customers keep coming, I, the investor, keep making money, whether I am doing any work or not. Part of the value produced by the worker's labor is siphoned off so that I keep making money. I can then invest money all over the place, reaping profits from my investments, and if I don't want to, I never have to work again! Isn't capitalism wonderful? (And I want more money! Cut the workers' wages! And if I hear one peep about a union you're ALL FIRED!)

My first job was at a cheese making plant run by a couple of old geezers that were pretty hardass but if you got the work done would generally leave you alone. Well, they retired and sold the plant to someone just as you describe. he promtly shut it down and opened a new plant that bought cheese in bulk and packaged it with a hugely expensive peice of equipment and it turned the job into a boring , boring crap job. plus the guy was a complete asshole.

You know what? I never thought once about getting government to make him change his evil ways, it was his company. I quit, and so did most of his other employees.

You sound a lot like a spoiled child who wants mommy (nanny state) to make the world understand how special you are.
 
If it makes you feel better Doug, this isn't just a recession we're in. These economic conditions are a precursor to a massive economic collapse on the horizon that will reset these market conditions back to a more natural state.

Then you should probably be able to find a job.
 
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Nearly all employers were employees at some point. Even the Employers are employees of their customers. Go run a business and then discuss how dominant employers are.

I know what you mean, I work for a company that provides a service for a company who provides a service for a company who provides a service for many different companies.
Many of those companies provide services for yet more companies.
 
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If it makes you feel better Doug, this isn't just a recession we're in. These economic conditions are a precursor to a massive economic collapse on the horizon that will reset these market conditions back to a more natural state.

Then you should probably be able to find a job.

Actually, my financial situation is ok at the moment, hence my post's language "Let's say I'm a worker..."

However, I do want to address this idea of "market conditions" producing a "natural state" that government "intervenes" in.

There is no such thing as a "natural state" (especially not through the market!) that is somehow "intervened in" by government. I could just as easily argue that government IS the natural state and it is the MARKET that intervenes! (Who was left untouched by the collapse of the financial system in 2008? That was a huge market intervention into everyone's lives...!)

You can actually look up the history of market society, as it began to take off in the 15th century as a result of colonialism and mercantilism. For the most part, few people wanted a market society and it had to be literally forced onto people. Peasants had to be forced off their (communal) lands and into the cities to work in the factories and textiles... This is also the history of the welfare state: with market society came mass unemployment, a precarious existence, etc, but you couldn't just let all the (unemployed) workers die because you might need them if the economy booms, so you get the State to provide minimum coverage for them in the meantime...

If you want to learn more, I'd recommend this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Transformation_(book)
 
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While unemployment is high? While nobody is hiring? What if every business treats their workers poorly? That's not a legitimate option. It's like saying to a slave, "well, go be a slave for someone else then!"

Then you my friend have a gold mine and an opportunity of a life time. If you think in a capitalistic state of mind.

(Just in case you don't get it. Open up your own business and treat your workers well and watch as the others either get up to snuff or go out of business).
 
Actually, my financial situation is ok at the moment, hence my post's language "Let's say I'm a worker..."

However, I do want to address this idea of "market conditions" producing a "natural state" that government "intervenes" in.

There is no such thing as a "natural state" (especially not through the market!) that is somehow "intervened in" by government. I could just as easily argue that government IS the natural state and it is the MARKET that intervenes! (Who was left untouched by the collapse of the financial system in 2008? That was a huge market intervention into everyone's lives...!)

You can actually look up the history of market society, as it began to take off in the 15th century as a result of colonialism and mercantilism. For the most part, few people wanted a market society and it had to be literally forced onto people. Peasants had to be forced off their (communal) lands and into the cities to work in the factories and textiles... This is also the history of the welfare state: with market society came mass unemployment, a precarious existence, etc, but you couldn't just let all the (unemployed) workers die because you might need them if the economy booms, so you get the State to provide minimum coverage for them in the meantime...

If you want to learn more, I'd recommend this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Transformation_(book)

The financial collapse of 2008 wasn't. The Government stepped in and stopped it. That is why the recession is ongoing. It won't stop until the government lets the collapse happen and lets all the owners who made bad decisions go bankrupt. What you are experiencing now is welfare for the rich. Its not even coming from your taxes, it is coming from your savings and your future via government devaluation of the currency.

The market intervenes when you are doing something wrong. Live pretending everybody can indefinitely borrow and use the borrowed money to exponentially increase their quality of life. That is just reality kicking in. We are doing everything we can to keep pretending and it is making us poorer and poorer.
 
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(Just in case you don't get it. Open up your own business and treat your workers well and watch as the others either get up to snuff or go out of business).

Case in point. SW Airlines. They treat their worker well. The original long time CEO even said, I care about my employees, not the customers, because he knew if he did that, the employees would take care of the costumers.

They are the most unionized and well paid employees of the industry now. They have never had a unprofitable year. As is normal in the rest of the industry.
 
Actually, my financial situation is ok at the moment, hence my post's language "Let's say I'm a worker..."

However, I do want to address this idea of "market conditions" producing a "natural state" that government "intervenes" in.

There is no such thing as a "natural state" (especially not through the market!) that is somehow "intervened in" by government. I could just as easily argue that government IS the natural state and it is the MARKET that intervenes! (Who was left untouched by the collapse of the financial system in 2008? That was a huge market intervention into everyone's lives...!)

You can actually look up the history of market society, as it began to take off in the 15th century as a result of colonialism and mercantilism. For the most part, few people wanted a market society and it had to be literally forced onto people. Peasants had to be forced off their (communal) lands and into the cities to work in the factories and textiles... This is also the history of the welfare state: with market society came mass unemployment, a precarious existence, etc, but you couldn't just let all the (unemployed) workers die because you might need them if the economy booms, so you get the State to provide minimum coverage for them in the meantime...

If you want to learn more, I'd recommend this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Transformation_(book)

Do you even understand what a market is?
 
Polanyi? Really? LOL! :rolleyes:

Murray Rothbard: Down With Primitivism: A Thorough Critique of Polanyi

Some quotes that might help you:
[Sorry about the long cut and paste, but this is important and this is not the first time these anti-market ideas have been brought here see LVT for example]

Karl Polanyi’s The Great Transformation is a farrago of confusions, absurdities, fallacies, and distorted attacks on the free market. The temptation is to engage in almost a line-by-line critique. I will abjure this to first set out some of the basic philosophic and economic flaws, before going into some of the detailed criticisms.

...

Why, then, do we consider the free market as "natural," as Polanyi sneeringly asks? The reason is that the free market is (1) what men have turned to when they have been allowed freedom of choice, and (2) what men should turn to if they are to enjoy the full stature of men, if they are to satisfy their wants, and mould nature to their purposes. For it is the market that brings us the standard of living of civilization.

...

I mentioned that the free society would permit Polanyi or any who agree with him to abandon the market and find whatever other forms suit them. But one thing and one thing alone the free society would not permit Polanyi to do: to use coercion over the rest of us. It will let him join a commune, but it will not let him force you or me into his commune. This is the sole difference, and I therefore must conclude that this is Polanyi’s sole basic complaint against the free society and the free market: they do not permit him, or any of his friends, or anyone else, to use force to coerce someone else into doing what Polanyi or anyone else wants. It does not permit force and violence, it does not permit dictation, it does not permit theft, it does not permit exploitation. I must conclude that the type of world, which Polanyi would force us back into, is precisely the world of coercion, dictation, and exploitation. And all this in the name of "humanity"? Truly, Polanyi, like his fellow-thinkers, is the "humanitarian with the guillotine." (See Isabel Paterson’s profound work of political theory, The God of the Machine, Putnam’s, 1943).

The naked and open advocacy of force and exploitation would, of course, not get very far; and so Polanyi falls back on the fallacy of methodological holism, on treating "society" as a real entity in itself, apart from, and above, the existence or interests of the individual members. The market, Polanyi thunders, disrupted and sundered "society"; restrictions on the market [are] "society’s" indispensable method of "protecting itself." All very well, until we begin to inquire: who is "society"? Where is it? What are its identifiable attributes? Whenever someone begins to talk about "society" or "society’s" interest coming before "mere individuals and their interest," a good operative rule is: guard your pocketbook. And guard yourself! Because behind the facade of "society," there is always a group of power-hungry doctrinaires and exploiters, ready to take your money and to order your actions and your life. For, somehow, they "are" society!

The only intelligible way of defining society is as: the array of voluntary interpersonal relations. And preeminent amongst such voluntary interrelations is the free market! In short, the market, and the interrelations arising from the market, is society, or at least the bulk and the heart of it. In fact, contrary to Polanyi and other’s statements that sociability and fellowship comes before the market; the truth is virtually the reverse; for it is only because the market and its division of labor permits mutual gain among men, that they can afford to be sociable and friendly, and that amicable relations can ensue. For, in the jungle, in the tribal and caste societies, there is not mutual benefit but warfare for scarce resources!

...

Finally, in the final chapter, Polanyi tries to assure us that his projected collectivist society would really preserve many of the "freedoms" that, he grudgingly admits, the market economy brought us. This chapter is almost a textbook presentation of utmost confusion about the concept of "freedom"; and of confusion between the vitally distinct concepts of "freedom" and of "power."

(On this crucial distinction, always blurred by collectivists, see F.A. Hayek, The Road to Serfdom.) Many "freedoms" would be kept, even maximized, (after all, isn’t a worker with more money more "free," and who cares about the money taken away from the luxurious rich, anyway?), and including such "freedom" as the "right to a job" without being discriminated against because of race, creed, or color. Not only does Polanyi vainly think, or assert, that we can have at least enough "freedoms" in his collectivist society; he also believes, equally vainly, that we can preserve industrialism and Western civilization. Both hopes are vain; in both cases, Polanyi thinks he can preserve the effect (freedom of speech, or industrial civilization), while destroying the cause (the free market, private property rights, etc.) In this way, he is thinking, not only as Nehru and Kwame Nkrumah think, he is thinking also in the same fashion as the savage whom he so exuberantly extols.

To sum up: I have read few books in my time that have been more vicious or more fallacious.
 
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Hi,

So let's say I'm a worker for a business.

Let's rephrase that so that it shows where the cowardly little bear actually shits. What you really are is a a one-man business- a one-man firm with transportation costs to and from work as your overhead, operating within another business -- your exclusive customer (assuming you don't work more than one job).

In light of that, what were you whinging about? Whatever you had to say after that, put that shoe on the other foot. Whatever rules you are proposing for yourself, ask yourself if they should also apply to your firm with its relationship with its customers.
 
When you say "more government," what you're really saying is "more community." You believe that businessmen and investors should be allowed to just do whatever they want, regardless of what the community says (even if they say, "Hey! We don't abuse our workers in this country!"

Maybe if the businessmen don't want the community telling them what to do, maybe THEY should go somewhere else! Hahahaha!

You can get businesses to operate in the best interest of society without increasing regulations or government. In fact, you can do that while decreasing regulations and government.
 
Polyani? Really? LOL! :rolleyes:

Murray Rothbard: Down With Primitivism: A Thorough Critique of Polanyi

Some quotes that might help you:
[Sorry about the long cut and paste, but this is important and this is not the first time these anti-market ideas have been brought here see LVT for example]

Ok, no offense, but this just awful. Seriously, it makes me even wonder if the guy read Polanyi's book.

He says:

"The reason is that the free market is (1) what men have turned to when they have been allowed freedom of choice, and (2) what men should turn to if they are to enjoy the full stature of men, if they are to satisfy their wants, and mould nature to their purposes. For it is the market that brings us the standard of living of civilization."

This is simply, utterly, and completely false. There is nothing more natural about a market economy than a gift economy, for example. In fact, there are literally limitless ways we could organize an economy, and this is easily found in the countless tribes and cultures studied by anthropologists. Again, historically, markets had to be pushed onto people, and this is a historical fact, whether it fits into your narrative or not. I would like to see the evidence supporting his first claim. The second claim doesn't even make sense here, as it is only the author's opinion.

"I therefore must conclude that this is Polanyi’s sole basic complaint against the free society and the free market: they do not permit him, or any of his friends, or anyone else, to use force to coerce someone else into doing what Polanyi or anyone else wants. "

Here, the author reveals to us that he sees in Polanyi some kind of hidden motive? Or something? That Polanyi wants to destroy the "free market" so that he can control people? That's not a legitimate critique of Polanyi's ideas. I wonder if he even read the book.

And we could easily turn this around: private businesses use the ideology of the "free market" to coerce and control the community: "The government can't tell us not to dump toxic chemicals in the water, that's against the free market!The government can't tell us not to abuse our workers, that's against the free market! The government can't make me test my products for safety before we sell them, that's against the free market!" And so on and so on...

In the third paragraph, the author is arguing that "society" does not exist, that we are only individuals, which shows the author is misusing the concepts of Universal and Particular. Sure, we could say that "fruit" does not exist, that there are only apples and oranges, but these two situations are not the same. "Society" is just a term used to refer to the totality of social relations amongst any group of people who share a culture. Society does exist, societies do exist. Can you honestly say that you are part of no society?

The author then says, "For, in the jungle, in the tribal and caste societies, there is not mutual benefit but warfare for scarce resources!" which is just blatantly and laughably false.

Finally, in the last paragraph, he says that we have political freedoms because of the market. "Polanyi thinks he can preserve the effect (freedom of speech, or industrial civilization), while destroying the cause (the free market, private property rights, etc.)" This, honestly, is just a really stupid assertion and I wonder how he justifies such a claim.

Look, that was just awful. You can do better! Come on...
 
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but the truth is that businessmen and investors, who are only concerned about turning bigger and bigger profits, would pay their workers nothing if they could get away with it (what is wage-slavery but another form of (legitimate) slavery?

If that were true, everyone should be making minimum wage because that would be the least amount that employers could legally get away with paying people. How do you explain the majority of workers who get paid several times more than minimum wage?
 
Oh, poor, poor government! Always being taken over by the eeeeevil corporations! Poor government! If only it was the government that had all the soldiers with guns, all the power, it could defend itself from the coercion of private enterprise! ...waitaminute
 
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