Why God Created Evil

[TomL]

I agree. God is the Soveriegn Lord who does whatever He intends to do.

Then He did create evil for a specific purpose. As Romans 9 14-24 says:

( wonder if anyone that is responding in this thread has read Romans 9:14-24 or anyone will attempt to go by line-by-line to understand...hope so!)

You seem bent on attributing sin to God. 1st John 1.5 tells us that, "God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all." [NLT] Then 3.5 says, "And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in Him." [NLT] Jesus told us in Matthew 5.48 that our Father in Heaven is PERFECT. This being true, how can the creation of sin and evil, which you seem to be proclaiming, be attributed to God?

Romans 9, line by line might confuse the issue. I'd rather take the whole in context.

Whitney Houston just died, and by all accounts, her life, at least her outward life, was pretty messed up. But God judges the heart, which no man can do. What if God then chose to have mercy for her spirit? He has that right and power to do so. So then, God has mercy on whom he will have mercy. Also, God can use anyone for His purpose, including an evil king, or President.

All this simply says that God is sovereign and can do whatever He pleases. None of this shows that God created sin and evil. How can God create sin and evil when He is perfect. There is no imperfection in Him at all.

 

[TomL]

Moosetracks,

Would you walk with me verse by verse on Romans 9:14-24 to tell me exactly where you think I am not exegeting it correctly?

You separate words from their context. For example, I have a duo-tone car. It's a white car with a blue canvass top. If I describe my car using your kind of exegesis, I could say I have a white car. But to do that I would have to totally ignore all the blue. In order to accurately describe my car, I must keep the white in context of all the colors.

 

[jmdrake]

AquaBuddha, please explain this passage in James 1:13-14

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Now, put the plain teaching of James 1:13-14 up against what you quoted in the OP.

It is true that a person sins according to his evil nature, but as Luther writes, it is God who "creates" this evil nature in each newly conceived person after the pattern of fallen Adam, whose fall God also caused. And then, God must actively cause this evil nature to function and the person to act according to it. Luther writes that God never allows this evil nature to be idle in Satan and in ungodly people, but he continuously causes it to function by his power.

That heresy goes beyond God "tempting" man into God forcing man to be evil. You don't need "tradition of the church fathers" to refute that. All you need is simply to read the Word of God as written. As for your "proof text" in Romans 9 you need to go back and read Romans 1.

The key point in Romans 1:19-32 is that because people rejected God, He gave them over to a reprobate mind. He let pharaoh and others reap the natural consequences of their choices.
Romans 1:19-32
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[robert9712000]

You first need to define what determines something to be evil

Evil = Opposition to God's Will

So if you use that as the definition of evil (sin),you can't say God created evil.

Unless you say that by allowing us free will to decide for ourselves whether to resist God's will, is creating opportunity for us to resist God.Even by allowing us the ability to decide, the choice to be evil is still ours.When God hardened the Pharaohs heart , it was only after he refused God,s will numerous times prior.

 

[robert68]

If “God” made humans, how could there be a motive in them to “oppose God’s will”? "Free will" doesn't explain motive.

 

[CasualApathy]

Useless discussion is useless.

 

[robert9712000]

Useless discussion is useless.

Why bother to comment if you feel its useless?

Its not your opinion of the discussion that compels you or others to interject into the conversation ,but rather your desire to let it be known of your disdain for religion.Instead of being so quick to let your arrogant opinion dictate what you say,I would hope as a lover of liberty you would see the value of the individual seeking not just seeking physical freedom but mental freedom as well.

Most people let the Worlds interpretation of the Bible determine there opinion,but the Bible offers freedom of the mind if you can humble yourself enough to give it a unbiased attention.

 

[robert9712000]

If “God” made humans, how could there be a motive in them to “oppose God’s will”? "Free will" doesn't explain motive.

Motive comes when a person is drawn away by there own lusts

James 1

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Lust is a uncontrollable desire for something .Thats why God stresses the importance of discipline in all things or moderation so that they won't get out of control to the point to where those desires run your life and dictate your actions.

1 Corinthians 6

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

 

[CasualApathy]

Why bother to comment if you feel its useless?

Its not your opinion of the discussion that compels you or others to interject into the conversation ,but rather your desire to let it be known of your disdain for religion.Instead of being so quick to let your arrogant opinion dictate what you say,I would hope as a lover of liberty you would see the value of the individual seeking not just seeking physical freedom but mental freedom as well.

Most people let the Worlds interpretation of the Bible determine there opinion,but the Bible offers freedom of the mind if you can humble yourself enough to give it a unbiased attention.

The devil made me do it! Please forgive me

 

[robert68]

Motive comes when a person is drawn away by there own lusts



Lust is a uncontrollable desire for something .Thats why God stresses the importance of discipline in all things or moderation so that they won't get out of control to the point to where those desires run your life and dictate your actions.

Where does lust or “uncontrollable desire for something” come from? If “God” made the lustful person, then how didn't the “uncontrollable desire” come from “him”? If a home is built with a leaky roof, isn’t the builder of the home to blame for the leaky roof?

 

[robert9712000]

Where does lust or “uncontrollable desire for something” come from? If “God” made the lustful person, then how didn't the “uncontrollable desire” come from “him”? If a home is built with a leaky roof, isn’t the builder of the home to blame for the leaky roof?

God doesn't make anyone lustful,a lustful person chooses too pursue lust.I should clarify more,when i said uncontrollable.I should have said very hard to control,no lust ever has complete control but it can have a very powerful grip on your mind, if you feed the initial lustful desire to the point of addiction.

You use the analogy of a roofer being liable for a leaky roof but the problem were talking about wasn't caused by the builder it was caused by you.A better analogy which also compares lust not as just a problem that needs fixed but something that can destroy your life is, If a gun maker makes a Gun and you use that gun to kill yourself is the Gun Maker liable for your death? Just because God allows you the ability to choose lust,doesn't make him responsible if you choose to indulge in it.

Its the same idea as libertarianism,where we as men have concluded that the most fair form of living,which would allow maximum access to freedom is to allow the individual to be responsible for there own actions.If God judged us solely on our actions Hed be justified in his judgements of our transgressions ,but he goes out of his way to Show us mercy by giving us a means to nullify the judgement we deserve,for hed rather us to become better people than be forced to judge us because of our refusal to accept his gift of the knowledge of righteousness.

I,m sure you'll ask, why i said forced to judge us.Hes forced to judge because since he is righteous,Righteousness demands judgement of sin else it wouldn't be righteous .If God didnt judge there would be no distinction between good and evil.
His allowing Christ to be judged for our Sin not only shows how deeply he desires us to overcome our Sin but it also shows how big a deal it really was when Christ chose to die for Mans sin.All he requires is that you accept his sacrifice.

 

[jmdrake]

Where does lust or “uncontrollable desire for something” come from? If “God” made the lustful person, then how didn't the “uncontrollable desire” come from “him”? If a home is built with a leaky roof, isn’t the builder of the home to blame for the leaky roof?

Romans 5:12
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

And google "epigenome".

 

[moostraks]

As you should. Stating God is the cause for evil is a serious charge as well.



AB, why don't you read some of the early Church Fathers for the answers. They explain it much better than me.

Ran across this site and found a brief run down on the early church writings on free will which really is the essence of the issue of evil. THis is not an endorsement of the site just happened to be a handy link to brief snippets from the early church writers...

http://pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin12.html

 

[jmdrake]

Ran across this site and found a brief run down on the early church writings on free will which really is the essence of the issue of evil. THis is not an endorsement of the site just happened to be a handy link to brief snippets from the early church writers...

http://pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin12.html

Great resource! Thanks for posting. (And not just a resource for this topic).

 

[robert68]

God doesn't make anyone lustful,a lustful person chooses too pursue lust.I should clarify more,when i said uncontrollable.I should have said very hard to control,no lust ever has complete control but it can have a very powerful grip on your mind, if you feed the initial lustful desire to the point of addiction.

But why does a "lustful" person "choose to pursue lust?

You use the analogy of a roofer being liable for a leaky roof but the problem were talking about wasn't caused by the builder it was caused by you.

How so, I didn’t build the roof in my analogy?

A better analogy which also compares lust not as just a problem that needs fixed but something that can destroy your life is, If a gun maker makes a Gun and you use that gun to kill yourself is the Gun Maker liable for your death? Just because God allows you the ability to choose lust,doesn't make him responsible if you choose to indulge in it

...

But that's different, the gun maker didn’t make me, as “God” did.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Bump.

If anyone here wants to debate me on this issue, let's do it. I think I hold the most "extreme" (I.e. biblical) view on this....so let's go.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Bump.

If anyone here wants to debate me on this issue, let's do it. I think I hold the most "extreme" (I.e. biblical) view on this....so let's go.

Alright, I'll bite

I assume that by "evil", you mean sin, rather than "calamity."

With that being said, quoting Vincent Cheung

We are not using the word "create" in the same sense as God's original creation out of nothing, but we are referring to God's control over things that he has already created. That is, although God must actively cause evil thoughts and inclinations in the creature, and then he must actively cause the corresponding evil actions, he does not create new material or substance when he does this, since he is controlling what he has already created.

This is the point where I would disagree. I don't see any Biblical mandate for saying God causes people to be evil after he created them. Rather, I would say that God creates evil people and then leaves them to their evil desires. The elect, by contrast, God creates evil and then changes, taking the heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh.

Just to clarify, do you believe in equal ultimacy? Because I think that's ultimately what the debate comes down to.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Alright, I'll bite

I assume that by "evil", you mean sin, rather than "calamity."

With that being said, quoting Vincent Cheung



This is the point where I would disagree. Idon't see any Biblical mandate for saying God causes people to be evil after he created them. Rather, I would say that God creates evil people and then leaves them to their evil desires. The elect, by contrast, God creates evil and then changes, taking the heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh.

Just to clarify, do you believe in equal ultimacy? Because I think that's ultimately what the debate comes down to.

One of the reasons that God created evil was explained in Romans 9:

Romans 9:22-24

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

God chooses to show His wrath. He bears with great patience the objects prepared for destruction. He doesn't destroy them immediately. He bears with them in order that He will show the objects of His mercy how wonderful grace really is.

There is eternal purpose and intention for evil. It is for God's glory to be shown to the elect.

 

[Christian Liberty]

One of the reasons that God created evil was explained in Romans 9:



God chooses to show His wrath. He bears with great patience the objects prepared for destruction. He doesn't destroy them immediately. He bears with them in order that He will show the objects of His mercy how wonderful grace really is.

There is eternal purpose and intention for evil. It is for God's glory to be shown to elect.

I completely agree with you. The point I disagreed with Cheung (And I assume yourself) on is that I don't believe God causes people to be evil after he creates them. This would imply that man is not actually totally depraved but that God has to actively cause what would otherwise be a morally neutral being to be totally depraved. I believe God predestines every evil event according to his purpose without actively causing people to be evil. He does this because when man is first conceived he is evil, God restrains man with his grace or hardens man by withdrawing his grace. If God hardens man by withdrawing his grace, man can do nothing but be completely evil, because that is what man is.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I completely agree with you. The point I disagreed with Cheung (And I assume yourself) on is that I don't believe God causes people to be evil after he creates them. This would imply that man is not actually totally depraved but that God has to actively cause what would otherwise be a morally neutral being to be totally depraved. I believe God predestines every evil event according to his purpose without actively causing people to be evil. He does this because when man is first conceived he is evil, God restrains man with his grace or hardens man by withdrawing his grace. If God hardens man by withdrawing his grace, man can do nothing but be completely evil, because that is what man is.

How could anything happen in creation without God causing it?

How could God prepare objects for destruction without causation?

Get consistent with the Word of God man.