Why Can't We Just Have Freedom?

[nate895]

Seriously, why? Why the hell can't we just have it for Christ's sake? Is it really so much to ask to just say to leave everyone alone? I mean, why is it so difficult to get this across? How come we aren't seeing more jury nullification? How come there are people who want to do this to other people? Why can't they just sit up in the mansions on hills or penthouse apartments on the Upper East Side and be satisfied with diamond and gold crusted caviar? Is it really so much to ask? Really, I want to know.

Edit: Musings of a bored libertarian mind with nothing better to do.

 

[nate895]

Hmm...Should I write an essay? I want it published.

 

[OptionsTrader]

Seriously, why? Why the hell can't we just have it for Christ's sake? Is it really so much to ask to just say to leave everyone alone? I mean, why is it so difficult to get this across? How come we aren't seeing more jury nullification? How come there are people who want to do this to other people? Why can't they just sit up in the mansions on hills or penthouse apartments on the Upper East Side and be satisfied with diamond and gold crusted caviar? Is it really so much to ask? Really, I want to know.

Edit: Musings of a bored libertarian mind with nothing better to do.

Honestly? Because most people do not want liberty. They have been taught by persons in authority to be dependent and they are going to need to go through withdrawal symptoms before they change. Fascism has come to America and as long as people feel "taken care of" and safe from the boogeyman of the month, they are not going to demand freedom.

Look around you. Most people are overweight and too lazy to actually produce capital.

From a strictly biological standpoint, I believe that in my lifetime we are going to see widespread famine and a large dip in the human population simply because the Earth will not be able to support 6 billion humans with an inefficient state controlled world government. The massive famine is going to kill off the weak, morbidly obese, dangerously thin, lazy, sickly, handicapped, and mentally ill and what will be left is a small population of survivors that will be forced to produce capital that others want or die.

 

[RSLudlum]

You might get something out of Rober LeFevre's "The Nature of Man and His Government" CH. 8: The Product of Fear

http://mises.org/story/1970#8

 

[nate895]

You miss my point entirely. I understand those are the "reasons" behind why we don't have freedom, but it just seems so simple a concept and nearly every average person believes it. Ask any random person on the street tomorrow: "Do you believe you should live free from government authorities if you don't harm anyone else?" They will in all likelihood answer "Yes." And yet, we don't have it, it is right there, just beyond our reach, blocked by people who want nothing more than to see their fellow man suffer for their gain. "Why do they want that" is my fundamental question. It seems so unnatural, so inhuman. It violates all base values inherent in at least our society. My conclusion, as a Christian, is influence from demonic forces, but what would make them give in? It is just so confounding.

 

[OptionsTrader]

The problem is that most people in fact do not want liberty. They want life to be easy.

Ask people if they want freedom and they will say yes. Offer them a candidate like Ron Paul and they will laugh at him because they want a global empire and we need a large gobernment to take care of the people in need.

 

[Brassmouth]

My conclusion, as a Christian, is influence from demonic forces, but what would make them give in? It is just so confounding.

I was totally with you until you started babbling about pixies and unicorns.

There are perfectly objective reasons why people hate liberty (propaganda, government schools, shitty parenting, etc). There are also reasons why some people want to deprive others of liberty (state corruption, malincentives, malice, lust for power). You don't need to evoke the "well i cant explain this scenario so I'll just blame it on some invisible beasts with horns" argument, and in fact, many people (but not nearly enough) will think less of you for doing so.

 

[nate895]

I was totally with you until you started babbling about pixies and unicorns.

There are perfectly objective reasons why people hate liberty (propaganda, government schools, shitty parenting, etc). There are also reasons why some people want to deprive others of liberty (state corruption, malincentives, malice, lust for power). You don't need to evoke the "well i cant explain this scenario so I'll just blame it on some invisible beasts with horns" argument, and in fact, many people (but not nearly enough) will think less of you for doing so.

Listen here, there is really no other reason. It is against all base values inherent in human beings to want to do anything but live their lives free from intervention. Why would they deviate from this set path at all? The temptations of evil that Satan has set up for us.

One thing all atheists forget to fundamentally answer is the ultimate origination point. Where the hell did the first super atom come from? Why is there a universe at all? How did the first organic being sprout from lifeless elements? And, the point of this thread, why would the first human being to think of government as a means to damage his fellow man think of that in the first place? What could have possibly possessed him (or her) to do such a thing? There is no certain answer to any of those questions, and it seems to me that the most logical conclusion is that something greater is at work in the universe than the infinite amounts of reactions of subatomic materials that came together to produce us and the thoughts in our brain at this very moment.

 

[Athan]

Seriously, why? Why the hell can't we just have it for Christ's sake? Is it really so much to ask to just say to leave everyone alone? I mean, why is it so difficult to get this across? How come we aren't seeing more jury nullification? How come there are people who want to do this to other people? Why can't they just sit up in the mansions on hills or penthouse apartments on the Upper East Side and be satisfied with diamond and gold crusted caviar? Is it really so much to ask? Really, I want to know.

Edit: Musings of a bored libertarian mind with nothing better to do.

Because freedom means no more politicians. They can't have that.

 

[ewizacft]

I was totally with you until you started babbling about pixies and unicorns.

I feel sorry for you.

 

[theinlawjosie]

You don't need to evoke the "well i cant explain this scenario so I'll just blame it on some invisible beasts with horns" argument, and in fact, many people (but not nearly enough) will think less of you for doing so.

Wow.

I don't really consider myself to be a "Christian" but I do believe in God. I don't go to church or dedicate a lot of my time to Christ and I don't live my life like your typical "conservative Christian" believes I should. I probably get just as irritated at the hypocritical right wing "Christians" as you do, but because I follow a faith based religion you feel I need to be thought less of. That doesn't seem to fit very well with the whole libertarian/freedom advocate thing.

I know several atheists and most of them could care less that I believe in God. Others seem to feel personally offended by believers and despise them because they push their views on others. These are the same people that make it a point to let everyone know that God doesn't exist and that they are superior to anyone who believes otherwise. To me it seems they are being just as hypocritical as the Christians they loathe. At least the Christians are doing it because they believe they will be leading a person to salvation, it seems a lot of atheists just get a kick out of being assholes.

I'd be interested to know if you can give me a legitimate reason as to why believers of a faith based religion should be held in a lower regard than those that have a blind faith in Science to eventually explain everything.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

One thing all atheists forget to fundamentally answer is the ultimate origination point. Where the hell did the first super atom come from? Why is there a universe at all? How did the first organic being sprout from lifeless elements?

Where did God come from?

Is God made of matter? If so where did that matter come from?
Is God made of energy? If so where did that energy come from?
Did God create himself? Fine, why couldn't the universe have done the same?
Has God always been around? Fine, why couldn't the universe have always been around?

If the universe has 'love' for inhabitants of a tiny speck of space called earth can we call it God?
If the universe has to put its 'son' on this speck of cosmic dust around 0AD can we call it God?

This obsession with a maker does not rest on a solid foundation.

If universe is a self sustaining, permanent entity, maybe it is "God"?

You don't have to have a distinct super being maker for everything.

Its understandable that finite minds in a finite world, cling to finite explanations such as needing a maker
to give them comfort. But in a universe which is extremely large and complex such primitive explanations
run a real risk of being wrong, man hasn't even been able to land on the nearest planet yet,
we are in no position to make judgements about there being a maker of the entire universe and personally I don't
believe there is one as I haven't seen any proof.

Logically, it is the same reason why I wouldn't automatically believe little green elves are responsible
for the weather even if hypothetically thousands of people had a book that said this was so,
because there is no way to verify their existence whatsoever.

Over time, men made the most absurd explanations for things they didn't understand such as flat earth, sun
rotation around the earth and things of this nature. Over time science has shed light on these questions.

I have no doubt that eventually, science will provide a clear explanation of how the universe "birth" / "death"
cycles operate in detail, this knowledge I imagine will come after significant space travel takes place by the human
species, possibly after having a bit of dialogue with extra-terrestrial sentient beings.

There exists a truly gigantic mountain of knowledge yet to be learned, we are nowhere near being able to claim
an existence of God, to do so is the height of self-centred egoistic arrogance and self-importance (ie. universe creation superbeing that "loves" us).

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Seriously, why? Why the hell can't we just have it for Christ's sake? Is it really so much to ask to just say to leave everyone alone? I mean, why is it so difficult to get this across? How come we aren't seeing more jury nullification? How come there are people who want to do this to other people? Why can't they just sit up in the mansions on hills or penthouse apartments on the Upper East Side and be satisfied with diamond and gold crusted caviar? Is it really so much to ask? Really, I want to know.

Edit: Musings of a bored libertarian mind with nothing better to do.

Because some folks INSIST on forcing a government on everyone else. Till they get over that, they will always have a weapon of aggression to harass you with.

 

[Natalie]

Why dont we turn this into another 26 page religious debate?

 

[VIDEODROME]

Some people think being part of a collective or team is for the greater good and moral. That many can accomplish more then a single person. They would be proud to wear a number or uniform. Like worker bees supporting the hive.

They would look at the person who wants to keep their own sovereignty, privacy, identity, and freedom as selfish, eccentric, and immoral. They would see a person who acts as if they are a community unto themselves instead of truly participating in their larger community. How dare they not join the team effort!?

Strangely in many ways this kind of thinking is correct and in just as many ways it can be dangerous. People sacrificing and joining a cause for to accomplish a greater good is noble. Think of building the Great Wall in China to protect against the Mongols and what a supreme community effort that took.

On the other hand using government to forcibly "volunteer" you on what they perceive to be moral grounds is where the danger lies. You become less of a free human being and become a community asset.

 

[Pericles]

You miss my point entirely. I understand those are the "reasons" behind why we don't have freedom, but it just seems so simple a concept and nearly every average person believes it. Ask any random person on the street tomorrow: "Do you believe you should live free from government authorities if you don't harm anyone else?" They will in all likelihood answer "Yes." And yet, we don't have it, it is right there, just beyond our reach, blocked by people who want nothing more than to see their fellow man suffer for their gain. "Why do they want that" is my fundamental question. It seems so unnatural, so inhuman. It violates all base values inherent in at least our society. My conclusion, as a Christian, is influence from demonic forces, but what would make them give in? It is just so confounding.

Most people make decisions in as isolated events rather in consideration of a total dynamic.

As you state, when asked, practically everyone will support having freedom.

But, when asked the following will also tend to agree.

Should poor people be helped?

Should terrorism be stopped?

Should jobs be saved?

And so on. A stressful situation creates an urge to do something, which is often the wrong thing in terms of long term benefit. Most "do something" actions come at the expense of freedom. The freedom most people really want is freedom from responsibility.

 

[tpreitzel]

Seriously, why? Why the hell can't we just have it for Christ's sake? Is it really so much to ask to just say to leave everyone alone? I mean, why is it so difficult to get this across? How come we aren't seeing more jury nullification? How come there are people who want to do this to other people? Why can't they just sit up in the mansions on hills or penthouse apartments on the Upper East Side and be satisfied with diamond and gold crusted caviar? Is it really so much to ask? Really, I want to know.

Edit: Musings of a bored libertarian mind with nothing better to do.

Many people have hit on aspects of this issue. You're right about supernatural forces acting on our limited free will whether perceived or not which guide man's actions. Since you're a Christian, I'd recommend reading the work of Dr. Stanley Monteith at www.radioliberty.com . He's written extensively on this subject and has numerous sources on his website. Call him in person and discuss the issue with him. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you, but understand the man is extraordinarily busy and advanced in years.

 

[nate895]

Where did God come from?

Is God made of matter? If so where did that matter come from?
Is God made of energy? If so where did that energy come from?
Did God create himself? Fine, why couldn't the universe have done the same?
Has God always been around? Fine, why couldn't the universe have always been around?

If the universe has 'love' for inhabitants of a tiny speck of space called earth can we call it God?
If the universe has to put its 'son' on this speck of cosmic dust around 0AD can we call it God?

This obsession with a maker does not rest on a solid foundation.

If universe is a self sustaining, permanent entity, maybe it is "God"?

You don't have to have a distinct super being maker for everything.

Its understandable that finite minds in a finite world, cling to finite explanations such as needing a maker
to give them comfort. But in a universe which is extremely large and complex such primitive explanations
run a real risk of being wrong, man hasn't even been able to land on the nearest planet yet,
we are in no position to make judgements about there being a maker of the entire universe and personally I don't
believe there is one as I haven't seen any proof.

Logically, it is the same reason why I wouldn't automatically believe little green elves are responsible
for the weather even if hypothetically thousands of people had a book that said this was so,
because there is no way to verify their existence whatsoever.

Over time, men made the most absurd explanations for things they didn't understand such as flat earth, sun
rotation around the earth and things of this nature. Over time science has shed light on these questions.

I have no doubt that eventually, science will provide a clear explanation of how the universe "birth" / "death"
cycles operate in detail, this knowledge I imagine will come after significant space travel takes place by the human
species, possibly after having a bit of dialogue with extra-terrestrial sentient beings.

There exists a truly gigantic mountain of knowledge yet to be learned, we are nowhere near being able to claim
an existence of God, to do so is the height of self-centred egoistic arrogance and self-importance (ie. universe creation superbeing that "loves" us).

The thing is, as far as we are from "proving" the existence of God, we are at least as far from proving that these things were there for no other reason other than that they were there. The one that really trips me up and makes me believe that there must be something greater at work than chemical reactions in the universe is the sprouting of organic life. How does an inanimate object gain life? It is hard to turn zero into anything greater without some sort of manipulation from outside forces. I think the most logical answer to that question is that God exists. You might believe differently, but I choose to believe that way because it provides answers that science will probably never provide to my satisfaction.

As far as your comparison to green elves creating the weather, the difference is that there is scientific proof that other factors create the weather. There is no proof, only theory, that organic beings sprouted from lifeless carbon. Therefore, most any position on why life and the universe came into being can be logically defended, and the truth will only be revealed either after we die in the case of Heavenly intercession, or probably never in the case of sprouting from complete nothingness.

 

[kahless]

The problem is that most people in fact do not want liberty. They want life to be easy.

Ask people if they want freedom and they will say yes. Offer them a candidate like Ron Paul and they will laugh at him because they want a global empire and we need a large gobernment to take care of the people in need.

Exactly.

To add, perhaps people think that way after a life time of being raped by government and thus forced into a situation of dependency. It is in the back of my mind and my values are hard core Libertarian - Conservative.

For example my year after year income over the last 10 years look like an EKG with highs and lows depending on the year. The low years are particularly hard but would not be if I did not get raped so bad in taxes in the previous high earning year. Last year was a good year but the federal government thieves stole a significant amount of my hard earned income that I could have used now in this rough patch which looks to be a low income year.

If this continues in my life time there will not be any savings or retirement. It comes to a point where I feel like I am always swimming against the current and losing out (to the fed). Perhaps one day putting me in a situation to be dependent on government because the year after year continual rape of my hard labor that I could have saved for my future and rough patches if they did not steal a significant amount of it from me.

How many people get to this point and give up to welcome the government particularly after a life time of this. I just wish people were as angry as I am that we can work together and really do something about it now while I still have some working years left in me.

It is heartening to see the Tea Parties and the efforts here but it is just not enough. I think allot of people feel the same way but give in to the government.

 

[Imperial]

The reason we can't have freedom is because the individual and the group against the whole gain more profits from collective forms of organization. In some cases, even we justify such action as progressives or minarchists(as I actually fall somewhere around here). Others advocate pure freedom, but that does not profit the individual as it is more difficult to be manipulated. It may be more beneficial to the WHOLE of society if we all act for freedom but it is far simpler to exploit a governmental provision or bureaucracy than to accept that there will be negative impacts in our lives, whether they are caused by ourselves or if they are spontaneous.