Why are we Republicans?

LibertyEagle said:
Actually, it was the Democrats who were always the warmongers. I think conservatives were swayed to war because the neocons (ex-Trotskyite Democrats) took over the conservative movement within the Republican Party.

I'm not seeing many Democrats denouncing Obama's warmongering. Are you?
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right on. Irving Kristol in 1972 said he wasn't supporting McGovern, and Socialist Michael Harrington called Irving Kristol a "neoconservative" because of it. I don't think that Irving Kristol changed his philosophies much since he was on the Hubert Humphrey task force in 1968. The neocons are the interlopers, not the true conservatives like Ron Paul. The Eastern Establishment has no great love for the neocon foreign policy. They could be "realists".
 
parocks said:
The Eastern Establishment has no great love for the neocon foreign policy. They could be "realists".
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Wut?

They invented it.

The moderate Eastern Republicans were led by New York Governor Thomas E. Dewey, the party's presidential nominee in 1944 and 1948. The moderates tended to be interventionists who felt that America needed to fight the Cold War overseas and resist Soviet aggression in Europe and Asia; they were also willing to accept most aspects of the social welfare state created by the New Deal in the 1930s. The moderates were also concerned with ending the GOP's losing streak in presidential elections; they felt that the personally popular Eisenhower had the best chance of beating the Democrats.
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They torpedoed Taft, and then got CIA man Buckley to purge the real right from the GOP in the early 60s, leaving room for the neo-cons to fully take over.

And here we are today.
 
No no no.

Irving Kristol is not Eastern Establishment.

Neocon came from the Democrat party. Kristol was on a Hubert Humphrey task force in 1968, in 1972 he supported Nixon, and in 1973 the socialist Michael Harrington called him a neoconservative.

You're talking about something other than neocon. Neocon is the specific "spread democracy by force" doctrine, which I think translates to "we can attack anybody we want for any reason or no reason at all. Bush called it a Wilsonian policy. This was not Dewey.

Yes, it is absolutely true that the "moderate Eastern Republicans" or "Eastern Establishment" has not liked Conservatives. That's the story of the last 72 years, yes. But Dewey wasn't a neocon. No doubt that the Eastern Establishment, Country Club Republicans, RINOs, GOP-E, Rockefeller Republicans have been opposed to the Conservatives - Taft, Goldwater, Reagan, Paul. That's the story. But neocon is distinct from realist as a foreign policy. Dewey doesn't sound all that different from Reagan, and Bush most certainly was different from Reagan.
 
From my experience and interactions, democrat voters vote democrat because they want to "help" everyone - make sure everyone gets a chance. I think spreading the libertarian message would be a positive message if spread to democrats, where with the republicans it is hell. Instead of saying "we must stop doing this", it is "what the government can do we can do better". Tell a nurse that "cutting regulations can mean freedom from an employer, the ability to negotiate wages, and the ability to work at their leisure" and I bet we could get that nurse to see why libertarianism is more humane and just than their previously favored "welfare state". Most(some?) D's are already practically social libertarians, it really is just economic philosophy where we differ I believe. And the freedom of the thought of government-necessity is really a gift that can be appreciated while learning. I vote to either co-opt the D's or target them specifically with a positive message from a L candidate- not that my vote matters.
 
parocks said:
No no no.

Irving Kristol is not Eastern Establishment.

Neocon came from the Democrat party. Kristol was on a Hubert Humphrey task force in 1968, in 1972 he supported Nixon, and in 1973 the socialist Michael Harrington called him a neoconservative.

You're talking about something other than neocon. Neocon is the specific "spread democracy by force" doctrine, which I think translates to "we can attack anybody we want for any reason or no reason at all. Bush called it a Wilsonian policy. This was not Dewey.

Yes, it is absolutely true that the "moderate Eastern Republicans" or "Eastern Establishment" has not liked Conservatives. That's the story of the last 72 years, yes. But Dewey wasn't a neocon. No doubt that the Eastern Establishment, Country Club Republicans, RINOs, GOP-E, Rockefeller Republicans have been opposed to the Conservatives - Taft, Goldwater, Reagan, Paul. That's the story. But neocon is distinct from realist as a foreign policy. Dewey doesn't sound all that different from Reagan, and Bush most certainly was different from Reagan.
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Neocons are Trotskyites. It's never been a "party" thing. It was more convenient to take over the GOP at the time, but would have taken over the Dems if it had worked out that way.

Among other things, they believe in "perpetual war for perpetual peace". RP explains it quite well:


The partisan stuff is smoke and mirrors. /end ramble
 
I had thought about posting a similar query, because so few plan for voting for the GOP nominee, if that nominee is not Ron Paul.

There are VERY RARE exceptions where a Democrat is closer to US than the GOP candidate, but Bob Conley comes to mind.



http://southernavenger.ccpblogs.com/2008/06/12/is-lindsey-grahams-challenger-a-ron-paul-democrat/

Unfortunately these rare exceptions ever get the media coverage that brings them to our attention, and sadly so many people still vote straight party ticket in the general election.
 
P3ter_Griffin said:
From my experience and interactions, democrat voters vote democrat because they want to "help" everyone - make sure everyone gets a chance. I think spreading the libertarian message would be a positive message if spread to democrats, where with the republicans it is hell. Instead of saying "we must stop doing this", it is "what the government can do we can do better". Tell a nurse that "cutting regulations can mean freedom from an employer, the ability to negotiate wages, and the ability to work at their leisure" and I bet we could get that nurse to see why libertarianism is more humane and just than their previously favored "welfare state". Most(some?) D's are already practically social libertarians, it really is just economic philosophy where we differ I believe. And the freedom of the thought of government-necessity is really a gift that can be appreciated while learning. I vote to either co-opt the D's or target them specifically with a positive message from a L candidate- not that my vote matters.
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FWIW, it's always been easier for me to persuade left-liberal democrats to consider RP's platform than "right wing" republicans.
 
parocks said:
The Old Right. That is correct. Robert Taft. Robert Taft was not a Democrat. That is the Conservative Tradition. True Conservative. That's what we are, that's the tradition. And also Barry Goldwater, Ronald Reagan. The Conservatives vs the Eastern Establishment. Over and over and over. Ron Paul might not sound the same as Pat Buchanan, but he appeals to many of the same people.
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I'd say right now I'm pretty content with 25% of the GOP. The other 75% can tie an anchor to their feet and jump in the Potomac. But I think you bring up a valid point. I'm a republican largely because of the notable individuals you brought up. Goldwater, Pat Buchanan, Howard Buffet, J.Bracken Lee. Real 'no compromise' trailblazers who epitomized what it was to be a republican back in the day.
 
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LibertyEagle said:
Walter Jones seems to have been doing a pretty good job of it of late. And traditional conservatism is all about classical liberalism too. Traditional conservatives are also referred to as libertarian-conservatives.

The problem is that traditional conservatives forgot their principles. I blame FOX a lot for that. They were presented with a neocon, going under the label of "conservative", and then someone like Hillary Clinton. I remember people saying that they didn't like the neocon choice and FOX saying, well, your choice is that, or someone like Hillary. Nothing else. It was a real mind screw. One thing Ron Paul has done for many is to remind them of what they used to believe. Although, I don't think a number of them were able to really hear what Ron Paul was saying. It got lost somewhere between the talk about heroin, quoting Osama bin Laden and ending Social Security overnight. lol. That is one of the reasons I have stood by Rand. Because I think he will be more successful at putting the message in terms they will be able to hear. I have seen him do it.
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I don't think it's that. When you have the rapidly advancing buzzsaw of the Democratic Party at your back, you're more likely to make certain concessions. That's the unfortunate conclusion most the of the republican voters fall prey to and it's an understandable argument. It's a catch 22. Succumb to the Borg like persistence of the the Left or make temporary alliances with faux conservatives who will address some of your issues.
 
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Marketing wise, I think the Republican party does a better job of claiming the mantle of the Constitution (even though they don't follow it). Democrats make it pretty clear that they don't really care for the Constitution and that it's a "living document". The fact that most of us like the Constitution as it's written gives us common ground with other Republicans to get them to actually listen.

I've always been a Republican. I got suckered early by the neo-con message though. I voted for Bush because I thought the world would end if Kerry was elected. I also thought that with control of all the federal branches, we could actually get conservative legislation through (we know how that story ends). Paul's message (or the libertarian message) simply resonates better with Republicans because we can just refer back to the Constitution.

It's up to the grassroots to frame these issues correctly though since most conservatives are in the neo-con paradigm. As fun as it may be too call them stupid or sleeping-sheeple, they're still real people with real concerns.
 
gerryb said:
Looks like you're loyal to the throw away party.

Ya know, Iowa has 30k registered LP members. RP came in 3rd with ~22K votes(from mostly the Republican base). The LP people couldn't be bothered to come out to an open caucus to give the best libertarian candidate since the LP's inception a majority at the caucus?
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Looks like you make judgments off assumptions. Have fun, but you're far from the truth as far as pegging me down.
 
Anti Federalist said:
Wut?

They invented it.

They torpedoed Taft, and then got CIA man Buckley to purge the real right from the GOP in the early 60s, leaving room for the neo-cons to fully take over.

And here we are today.
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No. There are 2 big government groups in the Republican Party. The "Rockefeller Republicans" and the neoconservatives. The Rockefeller Republicans are the eastern establishment repubs. If you watch, you will notice that they will speak out against the neoconservative foreign policy. Oh, they want global government, but they don't agree with how the neoconservatives are going about it.

The third group were the Goldwater-Republicans, which were the limited government folks. These were the traditional conservatives.
 
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I refuse to give patronage to either side of this false democracy. To support any side is to support a corrupt immoral system.
 
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