Who was right? George Orwell and his '1984' or Aldous Huxley's 'Brave New World'?

Huxley was dead on. His vision of the future has, in fact, come to pass. Orwell's vision, while more overtly frightening, is not the way things have worked on the broader terrain... at least not in the "west". The Soviets and Chinese followed the Orwellian pattern and failed. The Huxley pattern is indeed far and away more effective.

What is surprising to me, however, is the departure from Brave New World in the USA toward that of 1984. I see the optimal tyrannical efficacy being found in a mix of the two - a carrot and stick approach. What I find surprising is the fact that the heavy handed Big Bro' approach seems to be gaining a disproportionate level of favor these days, especially in the USA. It seems as if the globalists are losing patience and, being so close to achieving the greater goal, are getting sloppy in their discipline. Or perhaps they are so far along that they no longer need to be as careful as I would be, were I trying to take over the world.

Thoughts?
 
I think it is a mixture of both. We use a lot of high tech technology to criminalize behavior without the opportunity to confront our accusers nor hold those in power accountable. Yet, we have a lot of toxic substances that give us highs and a lot of parasites on production.

Osan, +rep. I agree totally.
 
Huxley was dead on. His vision of the future has, in fact, come to pass. Orwell's vision, while more overtly frightening, is not the way things have worked on the broader terrain... at least not in the "west". The Soviets and Chinese followed the Orwellian pattern and failed. The Huxley pattern is indeed far and away more effective.

What is surprising to me, however, is the departure from Brave New World in the USA toward that of 1984. I see the optimal tyrannical efficacy being found in a mix of the two - a carrot and stick approach. What I find surprising is the fact that the heavy handed Big Bro' approach seems to be gaining a disproportionate level of favor these days, especially in the USA. It seems as if the globalists are losing patience and, being so close to achieving the greater goal, are getting sloppy in their discipline. Or perhaps they are so far along that they no longer need to be as careful as I would be, were I trying to take over the world.

Thoughts?
I would argue that Orwell's vision has come to pass, except it's more subtle than the way he depicted it. Basically, the propaganda here is more effective and less obvious to the untrained observer than in Oceania. JMO
 
He and Orwell both got the concept for their respective novels from "We", which was based on the reality of Soviet Socialist statism. It isn't a magic prediction-it's documented history repeating itself in rhyme here in the "free" world.

ETA: IMO, "We" gives a more accurate portrayal of life in the future (it was written in the 30s) than 1984. (I haven't read BNW yet, so can't speak about very intelligently)

Yea you should read BNW...

The entire population is created in labs in scientifically perfect ways (for their own class) and then children are brought up in an environment that conditions them for their roles (They all worship Henry Ford as a God as they use his assembly line method to create classes of humans).

Brave New World to me, was the perfect blue print for science's perfect society... 1984 is the beginning of the tyranny that leads to the power that creates the highly controlled enviroment for BNW. I really think we are entering the 1984 stage and we'll be long dead before we actually get to the BNW stage...

Also the drugs and sex are waaaaaay more prevalent in the book than they actually are in today's world. The way they brainwash the children is also waaay worse than today's world. I really think we are aways away from BNW (Infact I think the book takes place about 600 years in the future where 1984 was only 36 years into the future- interesting note, the only reason he named it 1984 is because he couldn't come up with a title and he wrote the book in 1948 so he just switched the last two numbers)

You should read BNW, it's a fantastic look at where we are headed, but I doubt any of us we'll be around to see it.



What i've always gotten a kick out of is that even if Huxley and Orwell end up being right, no one will ever know- both environments feature worlds without books.
 
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He and Orwell both got the concept for their respective novels from "We", which was based on the reality of Soviet Socialist statism. It isn't a magic prediction-it's documented history repeating itself in rhyme here in the "free" world.

ETA: IMO, "We" gives a more accurate portrayal of life in the future (it was written in the 30s) than 1984. (I haven't read BNW yet, so can't speak about very intelligently)
"We" also influenced "Anthem", which really gets collectivism across by having the first person banned and "we" used in place of "I". I thought that was pretty ingenious.
 
Yea you should read BNW...

The entire population is created in labs in scientifically perfect ways (for their own class) and then children are brought up in an environment that conditions them for their roles (They all worship Henry Ford as a God as they use his assembly line method to create classes of humans).

Brave New World to me, was the perfect blue print for science's perfect society... 1984 is the beginning of the tyranny that leads to the power that creates the highly controlled enviroment for BNW. I really think we are entering the 1984 stage and we'll be long dead before we actually get to the BNW stage...

Also the drugs and sex are waaaaaay more prevalent in the book than they actually are in today's world. The way they brainwash the children is also waaay worse than today's world. I really think we are aways away from BNW (Infact I think the book takes place about 600 years in the future where 1984 was only 36 years into the future- interesting note, the only reason he named it 1984 is because he couldn't come up with a title and he wrote the book in 1948 so he just switched the last two numbers)

You should read BNW, it's a fantastic look at where we are headed, but I doubt any of us we'll be around to see it.



What i've always gotten a kick out of is that even if Huxley and Orwell end up being right, no one will ever know- both environments feature worlds without books.
Wow, BNW sounds so much like "We" it's kind of amazing. I'll definitely have to read it when I finish 1984. I suggest you check out "We"-it's available free at Mises.org and other places if you search the webbernet for "'We' by Yevgeney Zamyatin".
 
"We" also influenced "Anthem", which really gets collectivism across by having the first person banned and "we" used in place of "I". I thought that was pretty ingenious.
Yeah, I got a copy of Anthem recently and noticed that when browsing through the first few chapters. Kind of ironic that rand loathed "stealing" ideas but blatantly did it herself. ;)
 
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Yeah, I got a copy of Anthem recently and noticed that when browsing through the first few chapters. Kind of ironic that rand loathed "stealing" ideas but blatantly did it herself. ;)
Yeah I find that Rand was pretty hypocritical, though it doesn't change that Anthem and her books are awesome.
 
Wow, BNW sounds so much like "We" it's kind of amazing. I'll definitely have to read it when I finish 1984. I suggest you check out "We"-it's available free at Mises.org and other places if you search the webbernet for "'We' by Yevgeney Zamyatin".
I'll have to check it out. I loved BNW.
 
A person can be turned into a willing slave, if he/she continues to believe they are free while accepting slavery. Think about that. Edward Bernays understood the collective mind. It is the difference between the collective mind and the individual mind that makes all the difference. The collective mind accepts slavery, even though the individual mind rejects it. Thus we have the great dichotomy that is destroying us.

Shorty Dawkins
 
A person can be turned into a willing slave, if he/she continues to believe they are free while accepting slavery. Think about that. Edward Bernays understood the collective mind. It is the difference between the collective mind and the individual mind that makes all the difference. The collective mind accepts slavery, even though the individual mind rejects it. Thus we have the great dichotomy that is destroying us.

Shorty Dawkins

 
Farenheit 451 folks-the glue that holds 1984 and Brave New World together.

"Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us. .... Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines"- 2 Nephi 28:7,9
 
Huxley was dead on. His vision of the future has, in fact, come to pass. Orwell's vision, while more overtly frightening, is not the way things have worked on the broader terrain... at least not in the "west". The Soviets and Chinese followed the Orwellian pattern and failed. The Huxley pattern is indeed far and away more effective.

What is surprising to me, however, is the departure from Brave New World in the USA toward that of 1984. I see the optimal tyrannical efficacy being found in a mix of the two - a carrot and stick approach. What I find surprising is the fact that the heavy handed Big Bro' approach seems to be gaining a disproportionate level of favor these days, especially in the USA. It seems as if the globalists are losing patience and, being so close to achieving the greater goal, are getting sloppy in their discipline. Or perhaps they are so far along that they no longer need to be as careful as I would be, were I trying to take over the world.

Thoughts?

I see it Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 as precursors to 1984. Drug the masses, lull them into idiocy, then assert the right of overwhelming force when they are to stupid to think for themselves or have no drive to do so. My reading of 1984 seems to imply the first two books already happened. 1984 talks about the average person, the proles, as being so obsessed with their beer and distractions that they willingly allowed themselves to be dominated. They in fact wanted it.
 
Mankind is not a recent creation. The trick is not getting a slave to think he isn't a slave. The trick is getting the slaver to believe that he isn't a slaver.

We have met the enemy, and he is us.
 
I see it Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 as precursors to 1984. Drug the masses, lull them into idiocy, then assert the right of overwhelming force when they are to stupid to think for themselves or have no drive to do so. My reading of 1984 seems to imply the first two books already happened. 1984 talks about the average person, the proles, as being so obsessed with their beer and distractions that they willingly allowed themselves to be dominated. They in fact wanted it.

Precursors? Perhaps, if I read you correctly that you mean they are the bait to the trap and 1984 is what you get after you are rendered powerless to do anything against more bald-faced tyranny as we see in 1984. To my thinking, the question may turn on knowing the true intentions of those cultivating the long-term power scheme, assuming such a "conspiracy" is indeed afoot, which by all appearances it is. If the ultimate goal is to gain effective control over the entire global human population yet allow the general status quo of human life to continue, then I would have to disagree because the hegemony is then largely benign. But what if, as the documents and comments of so many governments, NGOs, and the various personalities indicate that there is a sincere belief not only in the severely overpopulated condition of the planet, but in the unquestionable need to reduce that population by large proportions, but as quickly as possible.

I have read calls for population reductions that have implied time frames that were uncomfortably short. Most people perhaps do not notice just how little time a century is where such goals are concerned, but when one applies an adept analysis to the question, the scary truth becomes quite apparent. One can, in fact, apply the precise same formulas used in financial analysis to get a general idea of what is needed to go from population X to population X' where X >> X', over a time interval T. The formulae are simple and easy to use. Once can use either a present value formula that works "backwards" or a future value calculation using a negative interest figure. The latter is simpler. The formula for future value is: FV=PV(1+ r)^n where PV = the present value (current population), r = the rate of yearly population diminution, and n = the number of years in which to reach the goal. Open Excel and plop these in somewhere:


A B C D
A FV PV Rate (r) Term (n)
B =B7*((1+C2)^D2) [Current population] [rate of decline] [# years to achieve goal ]


If we use the example suggested by the Georgia Guide Stones of 500 millions and give a full century to achieve the goal, which according to many prognosticators is way overly generous and optimistic, to get from today's approximately 7 billions the population would have to IMMEDIATELY begin dropping by a shade over 2.6% every year for the coming century. The enormity of such a task is somewhat difficult to put into words, barring a global cataclysmic event such as a meteor strike. Consider the nature of human beings, which in the respect of the drive to reproduce is very similar to most other life on the planet. The bottom line is that people are NOT going to simply stop the trend of exponentially increasing their numbers and adopt an instant linear decrease of 2.6%. It has never been and shall never be because to do this is NOT HUMAN. If this be the case, then the ONLY way to achieve the goal is through murder, whether through the violence of war (generally a big time loser in the longer term) or through catastrophe. Waiting around for a comet to hit the earth is and iffy-at-best path to the goal. Therefore, other means such as disease and the poisoning of the food chain in order, perhaps, to render the larger population sterile appear to be the only alternatives remaining that are viable from both the technical and political perspectives. If a new disease arises and begins killing off huge masses of humanity, barring very direct evidence that the circumstance arose as the result of direct and intentional human action by "government", humans stand even odds of banding together to find a cure and in the final days, to huddle and shiver in dimly lit corners as they wait to die "together". This is, IMO, to be the path of choice. Sudden globally reaching sterility would have too much the scent of human contrivance upon it and would therefore result in strong action taken against an ostensibly identifiable enemy.

That aside, as one brings better sophistication to the analysis including adding a deceleration curve from positive growth to negative (slowing the ship before heading in reverse), we see that things only get worse. Far worse in fact. For example, if we grossly oversimplify by saying it will take 20 years to stop growth and bring it BACK DOWN to today's 7 billions, leaving only 80 years to get to 500 millions, the population would have to shrink an average of 3.35% per year. Again, this may not sound like much, but it is in fact a STAGGERING rate of decline that cannot be met without "assistance", so far as I can see.

Add to all of this the as-yet unconsidered and often perhaps unpredicted, unpredictable, and unintended consequences of such sharp declines in population and what emerges may rightfully be termed "nightmarish".

If those who believe we are "over populated" are correct, humanity is screwed no matter how you slice the future. If they are wrong but so-called government acts on a sincere belief that they are correct, no holds barred, we are equally hosed, likely in more ways than methinks some are giving thought to. When one thinks about it, the only real bright spot here lies in the event that the prognosticators are utterly wrong and government and other organizations take to precipitous action to the contrary. Given the official rhetoric of organizations such as the U.N. on the question, one is at best left with a large corpus of very uncomfortable questions regarding paths going forward. Given the record of human governance in the twentieth century alone, does anyone in their right mind have any basis for warm and fuzzy feelings here?

Are we having fun yet? Well, are we?
 
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