Who plans on joining the Free State Project in New Hampshire this year?

You just don't have the "freedom" to buy a house in my development, put junk cars in the yard and never mow your lawn. Why? Because the residents of this community mutually agreed upon standards, and it is well within the rights of the homeowners to do so.

You can achieve that through contract law. I don't dispute your right to have such contracts. But if I own land not under such a contract, I would expect you to respect my right to have as many crap cars on my land as I so desire.
 
It has everything to do with your neighbors being tyrants. More specifically, your community being tyrants.

That guy that was thrown in jail because of his siding? I can guarantee you, that wouldn't happen in a 10:1 L:T community.

Population density doesn't causes tyranny. It's the population's inherent tyranny that causes tyranny. It may seem like population density is the cause, but it only seems that way because there's so much tyranny packed into a small area.

Then you are free to live in an area where people do not care about the repair status of someone's home. You can distance yourself from those you don't agree with an congregate with those that you do agree with. This is where the free market comes into play. If you live in a community where homes are in various states of disrepair, people have junk cars on their lawns, people never cut their lawns you will have a certain percentage of the population that feels that is paradise and a certain percentage that would not want to live there. That ratio determines the value of the home and effects your ability to sell your home.

The problem comes when you have one or two people that try and impose their desires on the larger percentage of the population. So when you have a person who wants to have their junk cars in the yard living among people that do not want that, there are problems. And while that may go against libertarian purist ideals, the reality is that when you choose to live in a society there are certain concessions that you will have to make. And there is nothing unconstitutional about that. There have been land use laws going back to the early days of this country. But you do have the freedom to live wherever you choose and find an area where your views of a perfect home are shared by others.
 
You can achieve that through contract law. I don't dispute your right to have such contracts. But if I own land not under such a contract, I would expect you to respect my right to have as many crap cars on my land as I so desire.

In our neighborhood when you purchase a home here, you are agreeing to abide by the HOA standards. It is in every agreement of sale. Our development actually attracts more buyers because of this.
 
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The problem comes when you have one or two people that try and impose their desires on the larger percentage of the population. So when you have a person who wants to have their junk cars in the yard living among people that do not want that, there are problems. And while that may go against libertarian purist ideals, the reality is that when you choose to live in a society there are certain concessions that you will have to make. And there is nothing unconstitutional about that. There have been land use laws going back to the early days of this country. But you do have the freedom to live wherever you choose and find an area where your views of a perfect home are shared by others.

If that person that wants to have junk cars didn't make any agreement not to when he bought the property, it doesn't matter what the other 99 people in his community want. They can offer to buy up his property, but they cannot, cannot force him to do anything. If he agreed to those terms when he moved that's another story.

Also, these are at most civil disputes. You can't throw someone in jail for a civil dispute. Regardless of what contract he agreed to.
 
In our neighborhood when you purchase a home here, you are agreeing to abide by the HOA standards. It is in every agreement of sale. Our development actually attracts more buyers because of this.

I'm still not sure what your point in all of this is. Agreeing to terms of sale before you buy a property is perfectly compatible with Liberty.
 
I'm still not sure what your point in all of this is. Agreeing to terms of sale before you buy a property is perfectly compatible with Liberty.

The point being when you purchase a property, you are agreeing to abide by the laws of that community. So expecting to do whatever you want on your land is only achievable if you live in an area that has few if any laws.
 
The point being when you purchase a property, you are agreeing to abide by the laws of that community. So expecting to do whatever you want on your land is only achievable if you live in an area that has few if any laws.

I don't consider voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty as a condition of keeping your land, inherently tyrannical. Throwing you in jail on the other hand for not keeping your house pretty is a pure act of tyranny and simply would not happen in a Liberty community.

Basically, all of those rights I listed, you can suffix "as long as it doesn't harm others" to the end of it. Breaking a contract harms others. Agreeing to keep your grass pretty, while not a contract I would ever agree to, is a contract nonetheless.

In many ways a free society wouldn't be much different than society here. In a free society, these things are handled with voluntary agreements. In today's society, these things are handled with the barrel of a gun. Big difference.

Liberty lovers in general are also just more tolerant of others in general. So even though you 'can' have the same restrictive limitations on what color your bricks have to be, how tall your fence has to be, how far away from the sidewalk it has to be, how many inches your grass has to be, etc, I think you'd see a lot less of that in a free society.

But if that's what you want, you're free to enter into such arrangements.
 
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In our neighborhood when you purchase a home here, you are agreeing to abide by the HOA standards. It is in every agreement of sale. Our development actually attracts more buyers because of this.

This is actually kind of funny because even though voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty only so you can force your neighbors to keep their houses pretty isn't breaking any natural rights and is technically compatible with Liberty, it does represent a tyrannical state of mind.

It doesn't surprise me that your development attracts more buyers because of that. People in this country love to control others.
 
This is actually kind of funny because even though voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty only so you can force your neighbors to keep their houses pretty isn't breaking any natural rights and is technically compatible with Liberty, it does represent a tyrannical state of mind.

It doesn't surprise me that your development attracts more buyers because of that. People in this country love to control others.

Actually it attracts buyers because it is a nicely maintained community. People don't want to spend 400-500K on a home to wind up living next door to someone that wants to keep livestock in his front yard. Call it tyranny if you want, most people call it civility and MUTUALLY AGREE to these rules.

Honestly though. you are going to have a very hard time finding what you are looking for in this world.
 
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No kidding. You don't say :rolleyes:

It will be a choice you have to make. Do you want to live and function as part of a community, or do you want to isolate yourself. The larger the community, regardless of their libertarian bent, the more you will have to make concessions to mutually coexist with others. It is just the nature of the world, and honestly it has always been this way. Even in early America there were certain laws that were in place, and those that broke the law were fined or punished.
 
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It will be a choice you have to make. Do you want to live and function as part of a community, or do you want to isolate yourself. The larger the community, regardless of their libertarian bent, the more you will have to make concessions to mutually coexist with others. It is just the nature of the world, and honestly it has always been this way.

So, what you're saying, is that my choice is:

1) Isolate myself
2) Live in this society as it is today, as a slave, because these are 'concessions I must make to coexist with others'.

I don't accept these as the only two options. I can't. I won't.
 
This is actually kind of funny because even though voluntarily agreeing to keep your house pretty only so you can force your neighbors to keep their houses pretty isn't breaking any natural rights and is technically compatible with Liberty, it does represent a tyrannical state of mind.

It doesn't surprise me that your development attracts more buyers because of that. People in this country love to control others.

It's interesting that you keep pointing out it's a desire to control. I also live in a development with an HOA, but it's nice because the fees go towards maintaining common areas (the mailbox area, various fields, playground, the winding streets that are not part of the city and require repairs from time to time, retaining walls that keep creeks from overflowing and blocking exits from the homes in flood situations, the trees whose limbs need trimming, etc.). The clauses about houses are still there, in that there are certain dimensions over which your home cannot go, and certain colors which your home should approximate. Those are there when you buy your home, however, and most people don't really want a bright flamingo pink house, so it doesn't become an issue. If they did want a neon-colored home, they wouldn't buy here. I'm glad I don't have to look at that. Again, we get back to the idea of preference.

The size restrictions are there because you could always buy a house, tear it down, and then build one twice as big... which would go right on up to the property line. The lots are not huge here, and so you would literally be encroaching on your neighbor's house. It's a courtesy thing, but most folks have lost that trait. I don't really see it as an issue, either, and like the assurance that anyone purchasing would have to have agreed to that, hence my property value is spared.

There are no regulations regarding pets or "lawn junk" anymore; neighbors wind up enforcing that on their own. Pets who routinely do their business in someone else's yard are not much of an issue, because of those well-maintained paths through what used to be a golf course. Lawn junk tends to be picked up by our excellent trash service (they really will take anything anywhere near the curb that looks like junk), or if not that, the neighbors will chip in to clean or offer a tactful word. This is very rarely a problem, since most people do want to keep a clean yard. There are several people who work on cars in the neighborhood, but they do so without leaving them on the lawn.

None of that is control over others. It's a mutual agreement to keep the neighborhood nice, and the terms of "nice" are defined in the contract. There are meetings, but not very often, and they are well-advertised. Any changes have to be voted on by a certain percentage of the homeowners, not just those that show up. In the meantime, the tradeoff is a beautifully wooded area where I know all my neighbors, and they know me, and where the houses are of myriad styles --- but not loud colors or overhanging their property line. The streets are maintained, there are lots of neat little creek beds and ponds and huge wild stands of flowers that are a riot of color in the spring.

Oh yeah, sounds like an attempt to control others.

What a tyrannical state of mind, living around people who want to make an attempt at having a community, and keeping their homes up to similar standards as you'd like to keep yours.
 
So, what you're saying, is that my choice is:

1) Isolate myself
2) Live in this society as it is today, as a slave, because these are 'concessions I must make to coexist with others'.

I don't accept these as the only two options. I can't. I won't.

No, he said function as part of a community, which is what I thought the whole FSP thing was supposed to be.

You took that to mean "live as a slave."
 
So, what you're saying, is that my choice is:

1) Isolate myself
2) Live in this society as it is today, as a slave, because these are 'concessions I must make to coexist with others'.

I don't accept these as the only two options. I can't. I won't.

Well if you want to live in a community that provides some service like road maintenance, fire, police, parks, etc then expect to pay some level of taxes. If you want to live in an area with minimal zoning laws you are going to likely be off the beaten track. Look at Grafton for example, it really is in the middle of nowhere.

Speaking of my local area there are places you can have essentially free reign over your own property, but you are not going to be in town or in one of the major developments. You'd either be in a run down trailer park or in one of the more rural areas. But then you still are going to pay taxes. And of course the further off the beaten path you are the harder it would be for you to sell your home, because the potential buyer pool is smaller the further you are away from town.

I honestly cannot think of anywhere that has no property taxes and no zoning. Perhaps areas of Alaska or maybe remote areas of Wyoming. But then again you are looking at isolation.

I think the issue that you may have to wrestle with is your definition of slavery. If you feel that having any sort of rule over you makes you a slave then you are always going to have issues with the rules that are in place.
 
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No, he said function as part of a community, which is what I thought the whole FSP thing was supposed to be.

You took that to mean "live as a slave."

You misunderstood. I subtly implied (too subtly apparently), that if what he said is true, then we shouldn't bother with the FSP to begin with, because according to him, the concept itself is flawed.

He basically said: do you want to make concessions to live in the community, or do you want to live by yourself. There's a third option, that both you and he neglected. Live in a community of like minded individuals.

There's always going to be some minor concessions. I'm ok with that, as I've said repeatedly. Noone is identical. I have my preferences, and my preferences are such that I'd prefer if my neighbors didn't throw me in jail for not mowing my lawn, and I don't think that is too much to ask.
 
I honestly cannot think of anywhere that has no property taxes and no zoning. Perhaps areas of Alaska or maybe remote areas of Wyoming. But then again you are looking at isolation.

Nowhere yet. Holy crap, you have entirely missed the point of the FSP haven't you. I'm done, you win, I'm outta here :/
 
He said "community" and didn't specify. You decided it was slavery. That's not subtle; you just apparently utterly misspoke. That's fine, but it's no reason to get so frustrated you stomp off.

You would think I'd know better after so many years of these threads, but they look so honest and inviting at first. Some folks do want to join the FSP and they do, and they love it, and that's great. Maybe someday you guys really will win over the Masshole invasion, drive them back, or perhaps secession is in the future. But for the life of me I can't understand the venom, name-calling, and general asshattery that is directed at people who have reasons NOT to join.
 
Nowhere yet. Holy crap, you have entirely missed the point of the FSP haven't you. I'm done, you win, I'm outta here :/

And again in order to find a group of people that think like you do in regards to community you are going to wind up isolated. Best of luck finding your utopia.
 
Believe it or not, but there are those of us that believe having a gun pointed in your face to take your money is called theft, and not taxes.

I'm not alone in this matter.
 
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