White House responds to Rand Paul: No authority to drone-kill Americans on US soil

^ Someone who gets it. ^

I think you're not seeing my point of view. If al-Awlaki was declared to be "engaged in combat" while sitting in a car, what prevents the Administration from declaring a US citizen in the US doing the same thing as al-Awlaki as "engaged in combat" and ordered him killed if apprehension is not feasible?

The answer Holder gave says that they cannot kill anyone not "engaged in combat" but who determines whether someone is "engaged in combat"? Who determined whether al-Awlaki was engaged? Isn't that why Ron Paul was so upset?
 
^ Someone who gets it. ^
Wow... I understand the significance of what Rand Paul did. That does not change one damn thing about the prdcedent set with Obama's interpretation of what is an imminent threat is. [not immediate] You don't get it. They already assassinated an American citizen without due process because he maybe could have been a threat in the future. THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. I'll spell it out real simply like, they labeled an American citizen and imminent threat because he may pose a risk in the future. They assassinated him without due process. They have affirmed they can do as much here and rather, that they should do as much here. Whether that be hanging you until dead, or dropping a missile on your shanty. The processes of death have been deemed inconsequential. Rand Paul does not want that happening to Americans on American soil, but he also state Al Awlaki should have been afforded due process.
 
I think you're not seeing my point of view. If al-Awlaki was declared to be "engaged in combat" while sitting in a car, what prevents the Administration from declaring a US citizen in the US doing the same thing as al-Awlaki as "engaged in combat" and ordered him killed if apprehension is not feasible?

The answer Holder gave says that they cannot kill anyone not "engaged in combat" but who determines whether someone is "engaged in combat"? Who determined whether al-Awlaki was engaged? Isn't that why Ron Paul was so upset?

What's important is that the door has been opened for discussion of that, drones even for surveillence, etc.

If you think this is just about getting the White House to make a disengenous statement, that's a bit short-sighted. This is much bigger than that. It's about holding their feet to the fire on what they can and can't do. Maybe people will actually make a stink now on all matters of due process in the future.
 
As they responded the left started on attacking Rand and also this response is weak.

Seems like similar tactics as the establsihment republican puppets, "This is so absurd that we shouldn't even be asking it"... If it's so absurd, then why was it such a problem to get them to admit it?
 
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I think the phrase "weaponized drone" leaves little to be worried about. Unless you think they're going to fly drones into people or structures? I don't see that as a rationale fear.

To play devils advocate:
What is "weaponized"? Generally that is something that can cause harm that is launched from a delivery vehicle.
What is a drone? - it has a brain, can be per-programmed or remotely controlled.
What is a smart munition? - it has a brain, can be per-programmed or remotely controlled.
What is a Hellfire missle? - it has a brain, can be per-programmed or remotely controlled.
Is something "weaponized" if it has a self destruct mechanism in case of crash so technology doesn't fall into enemy hands?

Remember the article on the USAF developing insect sized drones, including mosquito sized ones that could carry poison... Is that weaponized?

-t
 
I do wish Rand had talked more about the overall drone policy (overseas, killing civilians, US Citizens, etc) but I suppose this move will spark that debate further.
 
The genie is already out of the bottle; no one trusts the president. It's pleasing though to see the White House submit to the Junior Senator from Kentucky.
 
Wow... I understand the significance of what Rand Paul did. That does not change one damn thing about the prdcedent set with Obama's interpretation of what is an imminent threat is. [not immediate] You don't get it. They already assassinated an American citizen without due process because he maybe could have been a threat in the future. THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. I'll spell it out real simply like, they labeled an American citizen and imminent threat because he may pose a risk in the future. They assassinated him without due process. They have affirmed they can do as much here and rather, that they should do as much here. Whether that be hanging you until dead, or dropping a missile on your shanty. The processes of death have been deemed inconsequential. Rand Paul does not want that happening to Americans on American soil, but he also state Al Awlaki should have been afforded due process.

I think you and tsai3904 are misunderstanding me, that I'm not supporting what happened the al-Awlaki. I agree with both of you, and Rand, and Ron, that he should have been captured and afforded due process in the American legal system.

What I am stating, is that I think the clarification Rand forced the Administration to concede is significant even if it is minor. Even the DOJ white paper on al-Awlaki stated that he was "engaged in planning operations to kill Americans". That, to me, does not sound synonymous with "engaged in combat".

Can I know for sure? Of course not. And even if the Administration made it plain as day that those two conditions are *not* the same (meaning al-Awlaki couldn't be targeted in the U.S.) I wouldn't trust them at their word.

However, whatever legalese the administration may use today or tomorrow to wiggle their way out of the "engaged in combat" phrase, the very simple fact that Rand got them to make this statement/concession to the American public is significant because the American people--I think--understand what "engaged in combat" really means. Regardless of whatever fancy-word two-step the Administration may try in the future.

That's what's significant. No matter what the Administration says or doesn't, their words and promises will not protect us. The People's ability to hold them accountable for abuses of power *can* protect us though. It's a strong deterrent. This statement/concession is a strong tool for that in the realm of the public court, should we ever need to use it.
 
What's important is that the door has been opened for discussion of that, drones even for surveillence, etc.

If you think this is just about getting the White House to make a disengenous statement, that's a bit short-sighted. This is much bigger than that. It's about holding their feet to the fire on what they can and can't do. Maybe people will actually make a stink now on all matters of due process in the future.

Can't give you more +rep. Sorry bro :)
 
If you think this is just about getting the White House to make a disengenous statement, that's a bit short-sighted. This is much bigger than that. It's about holding their feet to the fire on what they can and can't do. Maybe people will actually make a stink now on all matters of due process in the future.

I completely agree. I think what Rand was able to accomplish is great but it doesn't end with that letter from Holder, which is why I'm still asking questions and holding their feet to the fire.
 
What's important is that the door has been opened for discussion of that, drones even for surveillence, etc.

If you think this is just about getting the White House to make a disengenous statement, that's a bit short-sighted. This is much bigger than that. It's about holding their feet to the fire on what they can and can't do. Maybe people will actually make a stink now on all matters of due process in the future.
Yes it is. And Rand Paul feels the same as I in stating that you own the airspace above your land. I believe he also mentioned a reasonable expectation of privacy whether you be in your home, or whether you be in your backyard. I like that. This technology can be abused many ways.
 
I completely agree. I think what Rand was able to accomplish is great but it doesn't end with that letter from Holder, which is why I'm still asking questions and holding their feet to the fire.

It won't end with that letter but Rand has declared victory and will move on, that's the sensible thing to do.

The wider debate about drones has been unleashed and now congress will probably put in place some framework
 
Can't give you more +rep. Sorry bro :)

No worries, truth is more important than my narcissism.

There is no reason we shouldn't celebrate every time that we can get conversations like this into the discourse. It's unbelievable to me that Rand was even able to get them to talk to about things like this.

This will always be an uphill battle with more to be done, but things are getting to a tipping point, so we cannot dwell on what is still left to combat. We must seize it.
 
I can't wait to find out what the qualifications are to be considered "engaged in combat on American soil." Rand made it pretty clear how theyve completely made up a new definition of "imminent threat" to suit their needs. I'm not saying this was a useless filibuster as this has woken up and rallied many americans. But this will not stop them from doing what they please.
 
It won't end with that letter but Rand has declared victory and will move on, that's the sensible thing to do.

Yes lets move on and keep holding them accountable. This just reminds me of the indefinite detention issue when Rand supported Feinstein's amendment and declared victory while Amash wasn't going to let the issue drop. We shouldn't declare victory and forget about this.
 
It won't end with that letter but Rand has declared victory and will move on, that's the sensible thing to do.

The wider debate about drones has been unleashed and now congress will probably put in place some framework

I agree. We're not going to get everything we want in this moment. This is a long fight and we need to take our wins where we can and build upon the momentum.
 
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