Where do Ron Paul's ideas come from?

Simplistic version:



Better version:



Part2, Part 3, Part4, Part5

In the first video, Adam & Ben get into a disagreement over who owns the apple. Eventually, they let Charlie make a law. Charlie makes law by man not law of the land. What Adam should have said is, "Sorry Charlie, this dispute is between Ben and me, stay out of it."

According to Hoppe, second video, first come first served. Whoever is first to use the property determines ownership. That makes sense. That is natural law.

It was Adam's apple to begin with. Here is what really happened.

Adam harvested the apples and then Ben gets up from his video game, goes outside, and steals the apple from Adam claiming that it is his tree. They let Charlie make law. Charlie correctly identified Adam as the owner, made a law, and then expected Ben to pay restitution determined by Charlie. Charlie is corruptible. What Adam didn't know was that Ben paid Charlie under the table to rule that two apples would be the judgement instead of the correct restitution of five apples. Adam got cheated. Screw that crap.

It would have been much smarter if Adam & Ben would have made an agreement beforehand by drawing a line in the sand and saying, "This land is your land and this land is my land." Then Adam can say, "I grow apples on my land. I tilled the soil, I planted the seed, I pruned the branches, watered, and fertilized the tree. I kept the predators away and harvested the fruit. The apples are mine would you like to buy one because they're not free? It is my tree on my land and here is my deed as agreed.

A simple social contract, laws of the land, rule of law, would have made the conflict much clearer. Then the arbitrator is not making stuff up as he goes along. The judge is simply determining who adhered to the established law, who did not, and basing his judgement accordingly.
 
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But it is true that anarchists are so perceived as violent, destructive, and liberal by the American public that to associate them in any meaningful way with the Ron Paul campaign is counterproductive and would be used to damage Ron Paul's political success by the media.

I respect that the owner of this site does not want anarchism discussed on the open forums. I have no interest in doing harm to the campaign, and generally when I speak about Ron, I don't associate him with my advocacy of statelessness.

Travlyr goes beyond wanting it to be disassociated with this site or the campaign. He goes to the point of being disingenuous.

And I've never heard Ron Paul refer to himself as an anarchist, nor advocate anarchy, so I can't help but think Ron Paul isn't looking to be associated with anarchism either.

I'm not here making the case that Ron is an "anarchist" or a voluntaryist, or anything. That's up to Ron. All I can say is that thanks to Ron in many, many significant ways, I now accept the philosophy of voluntaryism.

As for 'voluntaryanism' again I don't see the word itself being used by Ron Paul but his philosophical proclivities are definitely well along this path as I understand it, but to push this to the forefront of the campaign is again counterproductive to obtaining enough votes for him to win.

People can understand the idea of returning to a more limited, Constitutional government, but try to tell them they need no government and you've already lost their vote.

Yeah, I agree that is typically too deep a pool to go swimming in at first, for most.

But that doesn't change the objective truth of the philosophy. It's unassailable.
 
Heh, my bad. I'm not an anarcho-capitalist....I'm a pragmatarian. My goal isn't to get rid of government...my goal is for the scope of government to be determined by taxpayer's demands for public goods. See...Tax Choice - A Strategy for the Occupy Movement. That thread offers specific suggestions that would allow us to all work together....anarcho-capitalists, minarchists, libertarians, pragmatarians and supporters of the occupy movement.

Hey I'm for all the government you can get...without taxes that is.

Voluntary contributions and user fees are the ultimate goal, not whatever the taxpayer wants.

The taxpayer, bless our corrupt and evil souls, are what got us into this mess, along with the taxtakers.

But if we can agree that the Federal government should cut 1 trillion dollars from the next budget, end 5 departments, and slash the rest back to 2008 spending levels this year then that's a decent start yes?
 
Hey I'm for all the government you can get...without taxes that is.

Voluntary contributions and user fees are the ultimate goal, not whatever the taxpayer wants.

The taxpayer, bless our corrupt and evil souls, are what got us into this mess, along with the taxtakers.

But if we can agree that the Federal government should cut 1 trillion dollars from the next budget, end 5 departments, and slash the rest back to 2008 spending levels this year then that's a decent start yes?

A decent place to start is understanding the difference between conceit versus humility. Conceit is where one person...a president...or a committee...decides which 5 departments to end. However you spin it that would be socialism. On the other hand is humility. Humility is where 150 million taxpayers use their taxes to decide which 5 departments to end. Does this make sense?

If a government organization is truly unnecessary...then why would any taxpayers spend any of their own, individual, hard-earned taxes on that government organization? Do consumers behave this way? If you truly do not need/want an Ipod then would you use your hard-earned money to purchase an Ipod?
 
A decent place to start is understanding the difference between conceit versus humility.

Yes, anyone who thinks a government can spend money better than it's citizens is pretty conceited.

It takes a humble man to want to endure the rigors of public office not for personal gain but to try and reduced the power of the government he works for.

Conceit is where one person...a president...or a committee...decides which 5 departments to end. However you spin it that would be socialism.

That's an outright lie. Shrinking government /= socialism. Try again.

On the other hand is humility. Humility is where 150 million taxpayers use their taxes to decide which 5 departments to end.

That's another lie. 150 million taxpayers would be better served keeping their own money to begin with, not being forced to turn it over to a conceited government authority.

Does this make sense?

Probably not to communists those who wish to live off of other peoples work.
 
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Xero: Conceit is where one person...a president...or a committee...decides which 5 departments to end. However you spin it that would be socialism.
WilliamC: That's an outright lie. Shrinking government /= socialism. Try again.

Saying that a committee can truly know which 5 departments to end is the exact same thing as saying that a committee can truly know which 5 departments to begin. Committees cannot pick losers anymore than they can pick winners.

Xero: On the other hand is humility. Humility is where 150 million taxpayers use their taxes to decide which 5 departments to end.
WilliamC: That's another lie. 150 million taxpayers would be better served keeping their own money to begin with, not being forced to turn it over to a conceited government authority.

You're saying that you know what's in the best interests of 150 million taxpayers? Why not just let them decide for themselves which government organizations they give their money to? It would probably help if you learned about the economic arguments for libertarianism...partial knowledge and opportunity costs.
 
Xerograph's bs has been refuted countless times in the 30 odd threads he has created.

Why 30 threads? His bs gets refuted... so instead of admitting defeat, he starts a new thread.

Word of advice.. see my sig.

But by all means.. please do keep discussing whatever you want in this thread; thanks for the bumps. Cheers.
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Xerograph's bs has been refuted countless times in the 30 odd threads he has created.

Why 30 threads? His bs gets refuted... so instead of admitting defeat, he starts a new thread.

Word of advice.. see my sig.

But by all means.. please do keep discussing whatever you want in this thread; thanks for the bumps. Cheers.
tup.gif

Classic Conza
 
Xerograph's bs has been refuted countless times in the 30 odd threads he has created.

Why 30 threads? His bs gets refuted... so instead of admitting defeat, he starts a new thread.

Word of advice.. see my sig.

But by all means.. please do keep discussing whatever you want in this thread; thanks for the bumps. Cheers.
tup.gif

Seconded.
 
@WilliamC

It's not so much about anti-state versus minimal state, it's about RADICAL vs. status quo or non-radical. Murray sums it up beautifully as usual:

Murray N. Rothbard said:
Originally published in The Libertarian Forum, Vol. 10, No. 7, July 1977.

I have been ruminating recently on what are the crucial questions that divide libertarians. Some that have received a lot of attention in the last few years are: anarcho-capitalism vs. limited government, abolitionism vs. gradualism, natural rights vs. utilitarianism, and war vs. peace. But I have concluded that as important as these questions are, they don’t really cut to the nub of the issue, of the crucial dividing line between us.


Let us take, for example, two of the leading anarcho-capitalist works of the last few years: my own For a New Liberty and David Friedman’s Machinery of Freedom. Superficially, the major differences between them are my own stand for natural rights and for a rational libertarian law code, in contrast to Friedman’s amoralist utilitarianism and call for logrolling and trade-offs between non-libertarian private police agencies. But the difference really cuts far deeper. There runs through For a New Liberty (and most of the rest of my work as well) a deep and pervasive hatred of the State and all of its works, based on the conviction that the State is the enemy of mankind. In contrast, it is evident that David does not hate the State at all; that he has merely arrived at the conviction that anarchism and competing private police forces are a better social and economic system than any other alternative. Or, more fully, that anarchism would be better than laissez-faire which in turn is better than the current system. Amidst the entire spectrum of political alternatives, David Friedman has decided that anarcho-capitalism is superior. But superior to an existing political structure which is pretty good too. In short, there is no sign that David Friedman in any sense hates the existing American State or the State per se, hates it deep in his belly as a predatory gang of robbers, enslavers, and murderers. No, there is simply the cool conviction that anarchism would be the best of all possible worlds, but that our current set-up is pretty far up with it in desirability. For there is no sense in Friedman that the State – any State – is a predatory gang of criminals.


The same impression shines through the writing, say, of political philosopher Eric Mack. Mack is an anarcho-capitalist who believes in individual rights; but there is no sense in his writings of any passionate hatred of the State, or, a fortiori, of any sense that the State is a plundering and bestial enemy.

Perhaps the word that best defines our distinction is "radical." Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul.

Furthermore, in contrast to what seems to be true nowadays, you don’t have to be an anarchist to be radical in our sense, just as you can be an anarchist while missing the radical spark. I can think of hardly a single limited governmentalist of the present day who is radical – a truly amazing phenomenon, when we think of our classical liberal forbears who were genuinely radical, who hated statism and the States of their day with a beautifully integrated passion: the Levellers, Patrick Henry, Tom Paine, Joseph Priestley, the Jacksonians, Richard Cobden, and on and on, a veritable roll call of the greats of the past. Tom Paine’s radical hatred of the State and statism was and is far more important to the cause of liberty than the fact that he never crossed the divide between laissez-faire and anarchism.


And closer to our own day, such early influences on me as Albert Jay Nock, H. L. Mencken, and Frank Chodorov were magnificently and superbly radical. Hatred of "Our Enemy, the State" (Nock’s title) and all of its works shone through all of their writings like a beacon star. So what if they never quite made it all the way to explicit anarchism? Far better one Albert Nock than a hundred anarcho-capitalists who are all too comfortable with the existing status quo.


Where are the Paines and Cobdens and Nocks of today? Why are almost all of our laissez-faire limited governmentalists plonky conservatives and patriots? If the opposite of "radical" is "conservative," where are our radical laissez-fairists? If our limited statists were truly radical, there would be virtually no splits between us. What divides the movement now, the true division, is not anarchist vs. minarchist, but radical vs. conservative. Lord, give us radicals, be they anarchists or no.

To carry our analysis further, radical anti-statists are extremely valuable even if they could scarcely be considered libertarians in any comprehensive sense. Thus, many people admire the work of columnists Mike Royko and Nick von Hoffman because they consider these men libertarian sympathizers and fellow-travelers. That they are, but this does not begin to comprehend their true importance. For throughout the writings of Royko and von Hoffman, as inconsistent as they undoubtedly are, there runs an all-pervasive hatred of the State, of all politicians, bureaucrats, and their clients which, in its genuine radicalism, is far truer to the underlying spirit of liberty than someone who will coolly go along with the letter of every syllogism and every lemma down to the "model" of competing courts.

Taking the concept of radical vs. conservative in our new sense, let us analyze the now famous "abolitionism" vs. "gradualism" debate. The latter jab comes in the August issue of Reason (a magazine every fiber of whose being exudes "conservatism"), in which editor Bob Poole asks Milton Friedman where he stands on this debate. Freidman takes the opportunity of denouncing the "intellectual cowardice" of failing to set forth "feasible" methods of getting "from here to there." Poole and Friedman have between them managed to obfuscate the true issues. There is not a single abolitionist who would not grab a feasible method, or a gradual gain, if it came his way. The difference is that the abolitionist always holds high the banner of his ultimate goal, never hides his basic principles, and wishes to get to his goal as fast as humanly possible. Hence, while the abolitionist will accept a gradual step in the right direction if that is all that he can achieve, he always accepts it grudgingly, as merely a first step toward a goal which he always keeps blazingly clear. The abolitionist is a "button pusher" who would blister his thumb pushing a button that would abolish the State immediately, if such a button existed. But the abolitionist also knows that alas, such a button does not exist, and that he will take a bit of the loaf if necessary – while always preferring the whole loaf if he can achieve it.


It should be noted here that many of Milton’s most famous "gradual" programs such as the voucher plan, the negative income tax, the withholding tax, fiat paper money – are gradual (or even not so gradual) steps in the wrong direction, away from liberty, and hence the militance of much libertarian opposition to these schemes.


His button-pushing position stems from the abolitionist’s deep and abiding hatred of the State and its vast engine of crime and oppression. With such an integrated world-view, the radical libertarian could never dream of confronting either a magic button or any real-life problem with some arid cost-benefit calculation. He knows that the State must be diminished as fast and as completely as possible. Period.

And that is why the radical libertarian is not only an abolitionist, but also refuses to think in such terms as a Four Year Plan for some sort of stately and measured procedure for reducing the State. The radical – whether he be anarchist or laissez-faire – cannot think in such terms as, e.g.: Well, the first year, we’ll cut the income tax by 2%, abolish the ICC, and cut the minimum wage; the second year we’ll abolish the minimum wage, cut the income tax by another 2%, and reduce welfare payments by 3%, etc. The radical cannot think in such terms, because the radical regards the State as our mortal enemy, which must be hacked away at wherever and whenever we can. To the radical libertarian, we must take any and every opportunity to chop away at the State, whether it’s to reduce or abolish a tax, a budget appropriation, or a regulatory power. And the radical libertarian is insatiable in this appetite until the State has been abolished, or – for minarchists – dwindled down to a tiny, laissez-faire role.

Many people have wondered: Why should there be any important political disputes between anarcho-capitalists and minarchists now? In this world of statism, where there is so much common ground, why can’t the two groups work in complete harmony until we shall have reached a Cobdenite world, after which we can air our disagreements? Why quarrel over courts, etc. now? The answer to this excellent question is that we could and would march hand-in-hand in this way if the minarchists were radicals, as they were from the birth of classical liberalism down to the 1940s. Give us back the antistatist radicals, and harmony would indeed reign triumphant within the movement.
 
@WilliamC

It's not so much about anti-state versus minimal state, it's about RADICAL vs. status quo or non-radical. Murray sums it up beautifully as usual:

Yes, and I'm about as radical as you are likely to meet in most ways.

But there's also a dose of pragmatism in me as well, and I'm willing to work with those who want less government up until such time as what remains is enough to suit me. Any less then I'd have to get more involved to with like minded folks to create one, since I do believe that anarchy will always lead to violence which will lead to the strong ruling the weak, and some form of limited government seems less onerous to me than that.

But I also don't believe I'll ever be seeing this situation in my lifetime either, so I wonder about those who seem so stuck on it at the expense of making some progress in the direction of less Federal government, which in the USA is the most urgent problem.

edit: as far as State worship versus State hatred I tend towards the latter, but remain unconvinced that the complete absence of a State would lead to a better society. Indeed, I think the entire question sort of misses the point, that is that there is no where left on Earth to go to get away from the State, like there was in early US history. There is no frontier. Used to be if you didn't like the State you could pack up and move out West, but that era is past.

The best I can see is to fragment the power of the State into more local governments instead of a single Federal government, or worse a global government. If we can ever get to a true Republic system of competing State governments within a lose Union then maybe some of them will innovatively learn how to minimize themselves at the enrichment of their citizens, but the way the trend is now is the opposite.
 
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Yes, and I'm about as radical as you are likely to meet in most ways.

But there's also a dose of pragmatism in me as well, and I'm willing to work with those who want less government up until such time as what remains is enough to suit me. Any less then I'd have to get more involved to with like minded folks to create one, since I do believe that anarchy will always lead to violence which will lead to the strong ruling the weak, and some form of limited government seems less onerous to me than that.

But I also don't believe I'll ever be seeing this situation in my lifetime either, so I wonder about those who seem so stuck on it at the expense of making some progress in the direction of less Federal government, which in the USA is the most urgent problem.

Then as Murray, and I, have said, you are absolutely my comrade. I will take a radical minimal stater over a non-radical anti-stater any day. My own summation of the idea is generally this:

If government is a scale from 0-10, where:

Today's government is 9; and my goal is 0; and your goal is 2

So long as your pursuit from 9-2 is as radical as my pursuit is 9-0, I will be hand in hand with you until 2.

IOW, if politicians offer you a compromise of 8 or 7 or 6 or 5 or...I hope you will spit in their face with me (figuratively of course) ;)
 
from another thread:

Good reading to get behind RP's mindset on his role in politics and "natural resistance to the state".

http://mises.org/books/paulmises.pdf
It's interesting the synthesis Ron made out of von Mises, Rothbard, and Read, as shown in the quote. He has such great respect for von Mises, yet ultimately he chooses the natural rights stance of Rothbard over the utilitarian stance of Mises. Also, he clearly shares Mises' practical skepticism of political action, which is kind of a middle road perhaps between Read's rejection of participating in politics and Rothbard's embracing of it. He said "well, I don't agree that it's unprincipled nor even necessarily counterproductive to participate, but I do understand that it will probably be hopeless." I've heard either Mrs. Paul or himself say that before he first ran for Congress, he anticipated sure defeat, reasoning something like "you can't compete with Santa Claus," a pithy restatement of Mises' assessment.

Yet, despite this he ran anyway. He ran even though he thought for sure he would lose. And not halfheartedly either, but with enough focus and energy that he proved both himself and Mises wrong! What does that mean? What kind of person does that?

By the way, newbitech (and others), this is the kind of actual discussion about actual ideas of Dr. Paul and their actual origins which I was saying might be worthwhile. Feel free to jump in!
 
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Then as Murray, and I, have said, you are absolutely my comrade. I will take a radical minimal stater over a non-radical anti-stater any day. My own summation of the idea is generally this:

If government is a scale from 0-10, where:

Today's government is 9; and my goal is 0; and your goal is 2

So long as your pursuit from 9-2 is as radical as my pursuit is 9-0, I will be hand in hand with you until 2.

IOW, if politicians offer you a compromise of 8 or 7 or 6 or 5 or...I hope you will spit in their face with me (figuratively of course) ;)

See you at 2, then we can concentrate on where our differences are instead of what is in our common interests.
 
And I'm gonna have to give you an IOU on rep, wanted to rep the post with "Imagine" in it, such a beautiful song! But alas, I must spread rep around before I can give you anymore!
 
It's interesting the synthesis Ron made out of von Mises, Rothbard, and Read, as shown in the quote. He has such great respect for von Mises, yet ultimately he chooses the natural rights stance of Rothbard over the utilitarian stance of Mises. Also, he clearly shares Mises' practical skepticism of political action, which is kind of a middle road perhaps between Read's rejection of participating in politics and Rothbard's embracing of it. He said "well, I don't agree that it's unprincipled nor even necessarily counterproductive to participate, but I do understand that it will probably be hopeless." I've heard either Mrs. Paul or himself say that before he first ran for Congress, he anticipated sure defeat, reasoning something like "you can't compete with Santa Claus," a pithy restatement of Mises' assessment.

Just a fyi, Mises was a "philosophical anarchist".[Not the left wing variety].

Mises said:
The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars. … However, the right of self-determination of which we speak is not the right of self-determination of nations, but rather the right of self-determination of the inhabitants of every territory large enough to form an independent administrative unit. If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done.

By the way, newbitech (and others), this is the kind of actual discussion about actual ideas of Dr. Paul and their actual origins which I was saying might be worthwhile. Feel free to jump in!

I'd be surprised if they actually had anything worthwhile to offer.
 
It's interesting the synthesis Ron made out of von Mises, Rothbard, and Read, as shown in the quote. He has such great respect for von Mises, yet ultimately he chooses the natural rights stance of Rothbard over the utilitarian stance of Mises. Also, he clearly shares Mises' practical skepticism of political action, which is kind of a middle road perhaps between Read's rejection of participating in politics and Rothbard's embracing of it. He said "well, I don't agree that it's unprincipled nor even necessarily counterproductive to participate, but I do understand that it will probably be hopeless." I've heard either Mrs. Paul or himself say that before he first ran for Congress, he anticipated sure defeat, reasoning something like "you can't compete with Santa Claus," a pithy restatement of Mises' assessment.

Yet, despite this he ran anyway. He ran even though he thought for sure he would lose. And not halfheartedly either, but with enough focus and energy that he proved both himself and Mises wrong! What does that mean? What kind of person does that?

By the way, newbitech (and others), this is the kind of actual discussion about actual ideas of Dr. Paul and their actual origins which I was saying might be worthwhile. Feel free to jump in!

What kind of man does things that eventually prove himself wrong, you ask? A man who understands self sacrifice.
 
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