Where do Ron Paul's ideas come from?

...."But it is to Christianity that we owe individual freedom and capitalism. ;It is no coincidence that capitalism developed in Christian Europe after the transnational church limited the state. In ancient Greece and Rome, the individual was merely part of the city state or the empire, unimportant in his own right. Christianity changed that by stressing the infinite worth of each individual soul."

-Murray Rothbard


Why is it that Protestants who take the Bible very literally when it comes to sexual practices someone else engages in, are able to explain away the clear Biblical prohibitions on economic activities they engage in??)
http://www.rmbowman.com/catholic/econom2.htm
 
Legit question, deserves legit answer.



Nate, I'm going to demand an apology for your irrational and uncalled for outburst.

If you do not - I will post a link on Ron Paul's 2010 twitter (which has 4,000 followers), that which I control. The link will be to the "Ron Paul is a voluntaryist video" and "Where does Ron Paul get his ideas" video.

LE - an apology for shit stirring would also stop the above from happening.


Sounds like a threat. Blackmail, if you will.
 
Lmao, it's not a strawman at all. I rejected your bs fallacious point. You have to make the case I have no compassion, you also need to make the case that everyone is intellectually honest and open to reason, to in effect - have their hearts and minds be won over.

Good luck.

The additional point I was making is that, those who aren't intellectually honest and open to reason - rarely have their hearts and minds available to be persuaded of their error. Not my fault, it's their own.

To those that are like that, I am fine with them nut... WHEN THEY START ATTACKING the concept of a free society, that is when they become active in the defense of the state, they get no respect from me. It's not hard to understand bro, something you've failed to grasp for years.

"The State has its own agenda, that is, . . . all States everywhere are run by a ruling class, the people running the State, and one of their interests is to extend as well as maintain the power and wealth arising from that rule." ~ Robert Higgs' Memoriam on Rothbard



Ohhhh yeah, totally no compassion in this video. :rolleyes:





"Attack" the concept of true liberty. Openly "defend" [against] such notions [of statist supporters]. If you support a state (and do not allow for individual secession down to the individual level), then what makes you different from a guy in a guy supporting the cause?



A threat of force? Excuse me? Back up that baseless claim. Define force. It certainly isn't a libertarian definition. How absurd.

You never had any credibility to begin with newbitech, such words from you are hallow. :)


I don't make the foolish presumption that I am always rigth and that I have found the inerrant path of right logic contained in my own 3 pound brain. Forget about being an asshole and using ad hominem attacks regularly, you clearly don't understand what it means to be humble. Being humble is one of the most important aspects of having wisdom.
 
I don't make the foolish presumption that I am always rigth and that I have found the inerrant path of right logic contained in my own 3 pound brain. Forget about being an asshole and using ad hominem attacks regularly, you clearly don't understand what it means to be humble. Being humble is one of the most important aspects of having wisdom.

I think he knows what humble means, just doesn't know when to use it.
 
I don't make the foolish presumption that I am always rigth and that I have found the inerrant path of right logic contained in my own 3 pound brain. Forget about being an asshole and using ad hominem attacks regularly, you clearly don't understand what it means to be humble. Being humble is one of the most important aspects of having wisdom.

Humble.. to those who are intellectually honest.

I don't need to be humble to a soundboard. A wall who doesn't think. Who is stuck in the foundation of cognitive dissonance.

I don't start there, but people who continually make it clear.. lead me to that conclusion.

I think he knows what humble means, just doesn't know when to use it.

I do.

Are you humble to your aggressors? People who want to inflict violence on you? Who support aggression against you?

If they are ignorant sure, they do not understand as well - but when you SHOULD be aware, when you SAY you support liberty and are interested in the ideas.. when you SAY you support Ron Paul... that's another whole kettle of fish, no?!
 
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Ron Paul answering a question regarding the Great Depression. Running as the Libertarian Party candidate for President of the United States. Filmed at Drake University on January 22, 1988. Other things mentioned: Gold standard, Herbert Hoover, Mises, Business cycle, Inflation, Federal Reserve and Roosevelt.

Rothbard converted Ron Paul, his own words ;).
 
Why is it that Protestants who take the Bible very literally when it comes to sexual practices someone else engages in, are able to explain away the clear Biblical prohibitions on economic activities they engage in??)
http://www.rmbowman.com/catholic/econom2.htm

This is a misinterpretation. Aside from Rothbard's defense of Christians in the intellectual history of libertarianism, see here:
http://mises.org/daily/1736
In 1920, Ludwig von Mises wrote a comprehensive critique of the economics of socialism that launched the "calculation debate." The significance of his seminal essay, "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth," as Mises Institute Senior Fellow Joseph Salerno writes in apostscript, is that it "extends far beyond its devastating demonstration of the impossibility of socialist economy and society. It provides the rationale for the price system, purely free markets, the security of private property against all encroachments, and sound money. Its thesis will continue to be relevant as long as economists and policy-makers want to understand why even minor government economic interventions consistently fail to achieve socially beneficial results."
But Mises also recognized that the economic fallacies of socialism were only part of the problem. He accordingly extended his critique of socialism into the full-scale book Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis. There he not only comprehensively analyzed all forms of interventionism, but addressed politics, history, property, ethics, and even religion.
Indeed, for someone who was an agnostic, Mises wrote a great deal about religion. The number of references he makes to religion is staggering, actually numbering over twenty-five hundred in his published corpus. He mentions God over two hundred and fifty times in his writings. There are seven references to religion on the opening page of Human Action. His books Omnipotent Government, Theory and History, and Socialism are permeated with references to religion.
So why should we be interested in what Mises had to say about religion? Did not Mises himself say: "I am an economist, not a preacher of morality"?[1] What Mises said about religion is important for two reasons.
Religion cannot be separated from the study of history. The Bible itself is primarily a history book, not a religious book. Mises had a keen sense of history, and was extremely well-read, which, in previous ages, would have included the Bible. He recognized not only the place of the Bible in history, but its authority, even if he didn't subscribe to its tenets. Mises actually "quotes" Scripture on thirty-two occasions throughout his writings.[2]
So unlike many who are irreligious, Mises was knowledgeable about religion. He mentions the doctrines, customs, occupations, and activities of various sects. He refers to religious people and events in history. Religious controversy and conflict is a theme he visits often: the "great schism" of the Eastern and Western Churches, anti-Semitism, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation.
Mises's writings are full of religious imagery:
  • "The Philistine will be quite prepared to give up the tickets which admit him to art exhibitions in return for opportunities for pleasure he more readily understands."[3]
  • "The idea of this third solution is very old indeed, and the French have long since baptized it with a pertinent name."[4]
  • Whether or not the Italian Fascists "knew that their gospel was merely a replica of British guild socialism is immaterial."[5]
  • From the Communist Manifesto the Progressives have learned "that the coming of socialism is inevitable and will transform the earth into a Garden of Eden."[6]
  • Some maintain that "good economics should be and could be impartial, and that only bad economists sin against this postulate."[7]
  • Socialists have "proclaimed the socialist program as a doctrine of salvation."[8]
  • "If it rains manna for forty years, other things being equal, the price of manna must go down."[9]
  • According to Marxians, "Private ownership in the means of production is the Red Sea which bars our path to this Promised Land of general well-being."[10]
  • Public opinion "looks askance at wealth acquired in trade and industry, and finds it pardonable only if the owner atones for it by endowing charitable institutions."[11]
  • Marx knew that "the final cause of historical evolution was the establishment of the socialistmillennium."[12]
  • Eminent writers of history "have preached the gospel of war, violence, and usurpation."[13]
One cannot avoid religion when studying the works of Mises. But there is another reason to note what Mises said about religion, for in Mises's day, as in ours, the religious arguments for socialism prove to be the most intractable; they stem from deep-rooted beliefs about God and man and the purpose of the universe. And yet the arguments must be addressed.
Writing in the middle of the twentieth century, Mises observed about Christianity and socialism: "The Christian churches and sects did not fight socialism. Step by step they accepted its essential political and social ideas. Today they are, with but few exceptions, outspoken in rejecting capitalism and advocating either socialism or interventionist policies which must inevitably result in the establishment of socialism."[14]
Unfortunately, nothing has changed since Mises wrote this almost fifty years ago. Liberal churches and denominations that have all but abandoned traditional orthodox Christianity have also abandoned the free market. Their pleas for "equity" and "social justice" are pleas for socialism, pure and simple.
Conservative churchmen today are for the most part interventionist to the core. Their support of government-financed "faith-based" initiatives and moral crusades, their incessant demands for constitutional amendments, and their acceptance of state intervention as long as it is on behalf oftheir causes are only exceeded by their ignorance of the most basic economic principles. Read Mises? He was an agnostic Jew, why should I read Mises?
Mises did not shy away from engaging religious defenders of socialism. He rightly criticizes religious rejecters of capitalism whose only fault with Marxian socialists is "their commitment to atheism or secularism."[15] Mises perceptively points out that "many Christian authors reject Bolshevism only because it is anti-Christian."[16] The Church "opposes any Socialism which is to be effected on any other basis than its own. It is against Socialism as conceived by atheists, for this would strike at its very roots; but it has no hesitation in approaching socialist ideas provided this menace is resumed."[17]
But Mises did not condemn religious ideas because he was an agnostic. To the contrary: "The popular attacks upon the social philosophy of the Enlightenment and the utilitarian doctrine as taught by the classical economists did not originate from Christian theology, but from theistic, atheistic, and antitheistic reasoning."[18] It would therefore be a "serious mistake to conclude that the sciences of human action" and liberalism are "antitheistic and hostile to religion. They are radically opposed to all systems of theocracy. But they are entirely neutral with regard to religious beliefs which do not pretend to interfere with the conduct of social, political, and economic affairs."[19]
The fact is, not only atheists, but even religionists have almost universally accepted socialism and interventionism. They are all guilty, as Mises tragically recognized: "The atheists make capitalism responsible for the survival of Christianity. But the papal encyclicals blame capitalism for the spread of irreligion and the sins of our contemporaries, and the Protestant churches and sects are no less vigorous in their indictment of capitalist greed."[20]
Accordingly, Mises criticizes both religion and atheism at the same time for the same economic fallacies. Both "Christian Socialism" and "atheist socialism" have brought about the "present state of confusion" in the world today.[21] Both pious Christians and "radical atheists rejected the market economy."[22] Both divines and atheists rejected the ideas of laissez faire.[23] "Militant antitheists as well as Christian theologians are almost unanimous in passionately rejecting the market economy."[24]
One reason that Mises used so much religious terminology in his writings is that he viewed the supporters of the State as devotees of a religion. The state has its priests that people consider infallible,[25] as well as its monks to serve it.[26] Mises terms the idolization of the state "statolatry,"[27] which he classifies as a counterfeit religion along with socialism and nationalism.[28]Supporters of "the new religion of statolatry" are even more fanatical and intolerant than were the Mohammedan conquerors of Africa and Spain.[29]
If the supporters of the State are devotees of the religion of statolatry, the ultimate result is that the State is made into a god. How assorted socialists and interventionists make the State into a god is a theme that appears throughout Mises's works.[30] He often quotes or refers to the German socialist Ferdinand Lassalle (1825–1864), who actually said: "The State is God."[31] And once the State is made into a God: "He who proclaims the godliness of the State and the infallibility of its priests, the bureaucrats, is considered as an impartial student of the social sciences. All those raising objections are branded as biased and narrow-minded."[32] Mises relates that the state, like a religion, considers some things to be heresy.[33] In discussing how governments are intent on "restricting the freedom of economic thought," he points out how some believe that "government is from God and has the sacred duty of exterminating the heretic."[34]
But it is not just the religious arguments for socialism that are so deep-seated. Today it is the same with regard to the religious arguments for war. We can make a case against war, the most violent of all socialist means, and do it with economic, historical, and philosophical arguments. And yet, many supporters of war on Iraq care nothing about these issues. This is true about religious arguments for any subject. Make an issue a religious issue, and the indifferent and apathetic suddenly become interested. Connect religion with a cause and someone will be willing to die for it.
What drives many supporters of this war is faith. In particular, they have come to believe that Christianity has licensed this war and God has blessed it and the nation that pursues it, or at least that is what they outwardly profess. (Although I find it strange that over 1,400 dead American soldiers is God's way of blessing America.) Actually, however, Christian advocates of the war in Iraq are more like the Moslem armies that Mises refers to who "conquered a great part of the Mediterranean area" while believing that "their God was for the big, well-equipped, and skillfully led battalions."[35]
Those concerned about the future of freedom need to follow Mises's example and not shy away from engaging these religious arguments. I have made an attempt to do so in my book Christianity and War and Other Essays Against the Warfare State. There I contend that Christian enthusiasm for the state, its wars, and its politicians is an affront to the Savior, contrary to Scripture, and a demonstration of the profound ignorance many Christians have of history. Christians who condone the warfare state and its nebulous crusades against "evil" have been duped. There is nothing "Christian" about the state's aggressive militarism, its senseless wars, its interventions into the affairs of other countries, and its expanding empire.
Paul Craig Roberts has recently pointed out how "evangelicals, aghast at Vietnam era protests of America's war against 'godless communism,' turned to the military as the repository of traditional American virtues." Unfortunately, the same thing was basically done in regard to the Republican Party. A point I do not raise in any of the essays in my book is a possible reason why some evangelical Christians are so quick to support the state and its coercive arm of aggression, the military, in its various wars and interventions. That reason is their support of state intervention in general. Intervention at home leads inevitably to intervention abroad, as Mises says when writing about the economics of war: "What has transformed the limited war between royal armies into total war, the clash between peoples, is not technicalities of military art, but the substitution of the welfare state for the laissez-faire state."[36]
The religious arguments for socialism and war are really arguments for the state. Conservatives who decry the welfare state while supporting the warfare state are terribly inconsistent. Mises reminds us that "whoever wishes peace among peoples must fight statism."[37] Those who want "peace among nations must seek to limit the state and its influence most strictly."[38] Interventionism of any kind is a curse because "government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action. Government is in the last resort the employment of armed men, of policemen, gendarmes, soldiers, prison guards, and hangmen. The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom."[39]
There are no sensible, logical arguments, religious or otherwise, for socialism, interventionism, or war. Religious arguments can and should be dealt with at every opportunity.
 
Humble.. to those who are intellectually honest.

I don't need to be humble to a soundboard. A wall who doesn't think. Who is stuck in the foundation of cognitive dissonance.

I don't start there, but people who continually make it clear.. lead me to that conclusion.

You just proved my point. You don't know when.

I do.

Are you humble to your aggressors? People who want to inflict violence on you? Who support aggression against you?

Yep, looks like you're either clueless or intentionally adversary.

If they are ignorant sure, they do not understand as well - but when you SHOULD be aware, when you SAY you support liberty and are interested in the ideas.. when you SAY you support Ron Paul... that's another whole kettle of fish, no?!

nope.
 
You just proved my point. You don't know when.

Yep, looks like you're either clueless or intentionally adversary.

nope.

Your point was an assertion and you've done nothing to back it up, nor have I at all in any way validated it. On the contrary, you've confirmed it ;).

disagreement-hierarchy.jpg

Congratulations dude, see if you can get higher than level 3. :rolleyes:
 
He's specifically talking about the correct (Rothbardian) view of the Great Depression. But if that's what you mean, well done. :)

Yep. And elsewhere he talks about favoring self-government over a return to the constitution. Rothbard probably 'converted' him on that too :D.
 
I'm really weary of this idea that people who are assertive in their arguments lack humility. I will agree that at times Conza can come off like a hand-grenade... the problem that people have with that, however, is that he is generally right in his philosophical viewpoint. There is no logically consistent argument against the notion that the state is an illegitimate entity which exerts force on others unjustly.

I've found that making that argument is unsettling to people. I've also found that stating that there is no logically consisent argument against that position causes people to make judgments not about that statement, but about the person making it. People don't get mad and say that you lack humility when you tell them that the sky is blue. Saying that the state lacks legitimacy is essentially the same thing - a self-evident fact. Yet people are so repulsed by the idea that they almost reflexively rebel against it.
 
Well I've got to say, many of Ron's ideas are chock full of common sense.
I don't like bragging, but as a kid, you know 5-10 years old... I had many of these same ideas, given that I might have been preoccupied with other things then playing with kids my age, I'm sure many other kids, if not most at least once in their lives understood the concepts of liberty.

For instance... In school, I knew very well about 'reputation', hard work, effort/reward. I knew stealing from other kids wasn't good, or being jealous. I found out that lending things to other people that aren't 'credit worthy' is a bad thing, even if you like them as a person... As they will bankrupt your pen supply. Basically in school, when I was a little freedom-lover, I understood the concept of real money and the free market... Didn't you trade and barter things in school ?? We had huge bubbles with kids trading in rubbish plastic things from serial boxes etc.

Really... To me, sure, Ron is influenced by the Austrians, he's influenced by the founding fathers, maybe the most by Jefferson. However, all of those ideas come down to a great deal of common sense, which is probably why they are such good ideas... And this is just some of my thoughts, but I thought they might be worth sharing.
 
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I'm really weary of this idea that people who are assertive in their arguments lack humility. I will agree that at times Conza can come off like a hand-grenade... the problem that people have with that, however, is that he is generally right in his philosophical viewpoint. There is no logically consistent argument against the notion that the state is an illegitimate entity which exerts force on others unjustly.

I've found that making that argument is unsettling to people. I've also found that stating that there is no logically consisent argument against that position causes people to make judgments not about that statement, but about the person making it. People don't get mad and say that you lack humility when you tell them that the sky is blue. Saying that the state lacks legitimacy is essentially the same thing - a self-evident fact. Yet people are so repulsed by the idea that they almost reflexively rebel against it.

Conza does not argue the sky is blue. He is going way beyond self-confidence and that is evident in the way he speaks down to others. His excuse? He is defending himself. the word contrived comes to mind when I think of Conza's brand of assertive humility if that is what you want to call it.

Just look at how he continues to insist that Ron Paul is something that he is not. He constantly goes back to that one out of context quote as if it is the lynch pin of his entire purpose. I admit, I have learned plenty from observing and interacting with Conza. Where his argument fails time and again is that he cannot seem to put his word in to actions. Nor can he seem to, in this case, relate ALL of Ron Paul's actions to the source of what he claims to be Ron Paul's ideas. The failure of Conza to make his point is not that he lacks humility or is overly self-confident. Conza's failure lies exclusively in the fact that he is trying to use force to teach people the virtue of NOT using force.

The side effect is that Conza comes off as someone who is unable to develop his own ideas while simultaneously insisting he has his head fully wrapped around the source of someone else's, Ron Paul's, ideas. His contrivance is the source of his ideas, and I believe it is why he comes across as being dis-ingeniousness and constantly has his motives questioned by people who are also assertive but display more than a slight degree of humility.
 
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Ron Paul on Self-Government




At a huge rally in Seattle: “If you had a perfectly ideal world, and you had liberty passed on back to the individual, it would be self-government, that would be the ultimate test. As long as we accept one principle - that we don’t force other people to try to live the way we want to live. Stay out of meddling with these peoples lives.”

Self-government being synonymous with voluntarism and a private law society.

  • “If Canada and the United States can be separate nations without being denounced as being in a state of impermissible “anarchy,” why may not the South secede from the United States? New York State from the Union? New York City from the state? Why may not Manhattan secede? Each neighborhood? Each block? Each house? Each person? But, of course, if each person may secede from government, we have virtually arrived at the purely free society, where defense is supplied along with all other services by the free market and where the invasive State has ceased to exist.”
    — Murray N. Rothbard, No More Military Socialism.
Go on, deny 1 + 1 = 2... :rolleyes:
 
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When you read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the Founders, you then understand the framework for the Constitution and what it meant....

The Anti-Federalist papers are the pro-liberty documents. The Federalist papers are the big government, anti-human, anti-liberty documents.
 
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