Where do Ron Paul's ideas come from?

Should the bs continue, I'll be giving shoutouts and thanks to Trav and newbitech on the RonPaul2010 twitter feed... and thanking them for "highlighting the need to spread this video".

:D

You are so full of shit.

I don't think you know what delusional means either.

Out of morbid curiosity and for the sake of bringing this thread back in to focus, do you have any original ideas?
 
Lol. I clearly understand this. But how many moral philosophies explicitly declare all taxation as theft? Of course Christians are against "theft", but most are pro-taxation. So yeah, you can't call all Christians Voluntaryists because they are not taking their principles to their logical conclusion.

Of course most moral philosophies are not going to praise the initiation of violence. DUH. But Voluntaryism takes these basic moral principles that are almost universally agreed upon and takes them to their logical conclusion.



He has taken his principles to their logical conclusion. That is why he views all taxation as theft. He believes force should only be used in response to force.

Sure a lot of philosophies claim this, but only Voluntaryism means it. Other philosophies only pay lip service to the principles that are universally shared (by moral philosophies).

No other philosophies advocate the non-aggression principle in libertarian context. Ron Paul clearly advocates the NAP in a libertarian way, i.e. he means it and takes it to the logical conclusion.

We already went over this in the other thread. You decided:



After being unable to answer this post:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...voluntarists&p=4210142&viewfull=1#post4210142

Specifically:



This thread will go the exact same way, so I don't know if you are just bored or what.

The four points bolded are shared exclusively by Voluntaryists. Some philosophies might share anywhere from 1 to 3 of the points, but if they agree with all 4, then the philosophy is Voluntaryism. For example, Minarchists may believe #1 and pay lip service to #2, but fail 3 and 4.

After reading this post, I see you have provided us with a new crystal clear definition of voluntaryism.

So basically anyone who takes "X" belief to it's logical conclusion will have arrived at the point where they deserve this label. So really, Voluntarism can be summed up as the philosophy of following sound logical principles. Is this an accurate understanding based on the comment that you gave? I understand why you made that comment. You need to give the label some sort of specialness that makes it different or stand out, because my description was pretty much dead on. Am I right? So it's not enough to simply "be nice to people". You also have to follow this to the logical conclusion? I mean what really separates being nice to people from being nice to people all the way to it's logical conclusion? If everyone were to just be nice to everyone else in their actions, does it really matter how they arrived at that action?

I don't think so. So I really don't see the point in trying to separate out what you described as a philosophy which really is just a very convoluted way of saying be nice to each other, and saying well that's not enough, you need to have some sort of logical way of arriving at this conclusions, and oh you have to do it a certain way.

I mean I know you aren't saying that. I am just trying to reverse engineer it and really understand what is so special about trumpeting a philosophy that when followed all the way to the logical conclusion results in people just being nice to each other. Is it really so complex and detailed? Or is there a little junk along the path of following this philosophy to it's logical conclusion? I'd rather cut to the chase and start off with being nice to people and then apply philosophy to understanding why that very simple concept can and does get blown up in the first place.

So I think really the logical conclusion that you and other "voluntarist" are on the march towards, whether in your mind or in your actions, is not really a conclusion for me, but a starting point. I cannot recognize voluntarism outside myself. It is not a persistent state of being. It is something that comes in to being as long as relationships between "good" people exist. I LOL too because I don't think anyone needs any kind of reference material to understand this. The problem comes in exactly how I have described it. Relationships grow more and more complex and networked to the point where "voluntarism" starts to fail. If fails because of it's simplicity IMO. All relationships between two people are voluntary. Adding a third person to a relationship because compromise. In unique cases, as in family and what I would call tribes, the relationship tend more towards voluntary with sprinkling of compromise.

The reason I distinguish between voluntary and compromise is because at some point relationships become compulsory. This is the "leading edge" of the sphere of relationships as opposed to the "core" of relationships. For instance, men and women take on specific types of roles out of compulsion. This is not voluntary. There is a middle ground. I think it is important to identify these boundaries in terms of interaction. Of course 100% voluntary in ALL relationships is ideal. However that is not the reality, even in relationships all of us would consider sacred, such as that between Husband and Wife. Mother and Son, Father and Daughter etc.

So naturally, these dynamics extend beyond the core of our relationships in to the periphery. Such as Employee and Employer, Customer and Employee, Driver in the left lane and Driver in the right lane.

Anyways, I digress. If you think the topic will devolve in to me bowing out, like the other thread. You are wrong. The other thread was dealing specifically with voluntarist and Ron Paul. This one is much broader in scope as it is talking about Ron Paul's ideas. I take this to mean also ideas in general. I reject the notion that Ron Paul ideas originate exclusively from his belief in voluntaryism. This is such a narrow scope and really doesn't do any justice to what I would call "thinking people" or Forum Philosophers.
 
You are so full of shit.

I don't think you know what delusional means either.

Out of morbid curiosity and for the sake of bringing this thread back in to focus, do you have any original ideas?

He does know, he just doesn't think he is.
 
This one is much broader in scope as it is talking about Ron Paul's ideas. I take this to mean also ideas in general. I reject the notion that Ron Paul ideas originate exclusively from his belief in voluntaryism.
I have yet to read anyone embrace this notion. I have yet to read anyone advance this notion. Thus your rejection of it seems superfluous.

This is such a narrow scope and really doesn't do any justice to what I would call "thinking people" or Forum Philosophers.
Obviously everyone knows that Ron Paul, like all of us, has been influenced by a whole variety of people in his thinking, and has come up with original thoughts of his own as well. We can all join hands with you in harmony and brotherhood on that one. He has clearly been influenced by the Bible, for instance. Surely his good conduct and high character emulate that of his mother and father to a large degree. Hippocrates and other great medical and surgical minds no doubt have shaped many of his thoughts.

As for his political thoughts specifically, there have clearly been a large number of influences there. How can we judge what persons have been the most influential? What schools of thought Ron might subscribe to and/or consider himself a part of? I submit that one good way to judge would be to look at the bibliographies at the end of his books. Look through the lists of books he recommends people read. Read them. Follow this course and you cannot but learn something. Essentially, what you will learn is that I am right. Ron Paul wants people to read radical libertarian books. Why would he want that? Hmm.

Couple that with the actual content of his own books. What message is he trying to convey? Yes, again we must conclude: his message is that of a thorough opposition to the state. He never puts in a disclaimer at the end of his books, like for instance James Bovard, explaining that: "Yes, I just got through documenting a litany of outrages the State has perpetrated, but please, guys, don't reject the idea of the State! We just need to rein it in somewhat. To reduce it a bit. That's the solution I'm proposing. Please don't go any further than that." Interesting that he would avoid that almost unbearable temptation to distance himself from those he sees as taking things too far. If he has, I do not recall it; please correct me.

Couple those two points with everything he's ever said. His speeches are a treasure trove of libertarianism. I have yet to hear him explain how some taxes are actually beneficial, or how some level of taxation is beneficial and necessary and we shouldn't cut things below that level. Never.

One can also look at the people with whom he associates and has associated himself, and how he self-labels. He calls himself a Constitutionalist, a Libertarian, a Non-Interventionist. Are all those labels compatible with radical libertarianism? Yes. He says that he subscribes to the Austrian School of Economics. Are almost all Austrians radical libertarians (an-caps, voluntarists, market anarchists whatever you want to call them)? Yes. He says that his cause has been the cause of Liberty. What does it mean when someone's highest political ideal is that of liberty? What do we call such a person? And we don't exactly have to puzzle over the mystery of what exactly his personal definition of liberty is: he's shown that quite clearly via his voting record stretching back to the 70s, as well as telling us in many speeches and interviews and articles and books. His definition is the same as mine: lack of aggressive force. So again, what do we call such a person? His heroes he gives prominent place to are Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Ludwig von Mises, and Murray Rothbard. What can we learn from such a selection of heroes? He is a long-time supporter of the Mises Institute. What is their agenda (an agenda which Ron Paul clearly strongly supports)?

I conclude that Ron Paul is a radical libertarian. Has he also been influenced by Taft, Goldwater, and Hayek? Sure. I've been influenced by Hayek, but that doesn't mean I'm not a radical libertarian. We've all probably been influenced, consciously or unconsciously, by Plato, even though he's the ultimate anti-libertarian and top-down control advocate. Would it be interesting to explore the fabric of Ron Paul's thought, the unique connections he has made between all these thinkers? Probably. That would probably be a worthwhile discussion to have.

To participate in that discussion, you would have to first put aside your tedious attachment to haranguing those who you feel are too radical, an affectation that Dr. Paul does not share, by the way. Because that discussion would not be not worthwhile. It would probably not even be a discussion, just an endless repetition, making enemies where you should have friends. And what a waste that would be.
 
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Mises and Austrian Economics: A Personal View

"For as long as I can remember, I wanted to be free from government coercion in any form. All my natural instincts toward freedom were inevitably challenged by the established school system, the media, and the government. These systems tried to cast doubt on my conviction that only an unhampered market is consonant with individual liberty. Although reassured that intellectual giants like Mises agreed with a laissez-faire system, I was frustrated by knowing what was right, while watching a disaster developing for our economy. The better I came to understand how the market worked, the more I saw the need to implement these ideas through political action." - Ron Paul
 
^^^ Umm..... yes, so you're now making points that validate our case? Right?

Highly amusing. I know where this conversation will go btw, and I'm positive you don't... but let's have it anyway.

*This is a future notice of 'thanks for being a soundboard'.
 
I have yet to read anyone embrace this notion. I have yet to read anyone advance this notion. Thus your rejection of it seems superfluous.

Obviously everyone knows that Ron Paul, like all of us, has been influenced by a whole variety of people in his thinking, and has come up with original thoughts of his own as well. We can all join hands with you in harmony and brotherhood on that one. He has clearly been influenced by the Bible, for instance. Surely his good conduct and high character emulate that of his mother and father to a large degree. Hippocrates and other great medical and surgical minds no doubt have shaped many of his thoughts.

As for his political thoughts specifically, there have clearly been a large number of influences there. How can we judge what persons have been the most influential? What schools of thought Ron might subscribe to and/or consider himself a part of? I submit that one good way to judge would be to look at the bibliographies at the end of his books. Look through the lists of books he recommends people read. Read them. Follow this course and you cannot but learn something. Essentially, what you will learn is that I am right. Ron Paul wants people to read radical libertarian books. Why would he want that? Hmm.

Couple that with the actual content of his own books. What message is he trying to convey? Yes, again we must conclude: his message is that of a thorough opposition to the state. He never puts in a disclaimer at the end of his books, like for instance James Bovard, explaining that: "Yes, I just got through documenting a litany of outrages the State has perpetrated, but please, guys, don't reject the idea of the State! We just need to rein it in somewhat. To reduce it a bit. That's the solution I'm proposing. Please don't go any further than that." Interesting that he would avoid that almost unbearable temptation to distance himself from those he sees as taking things too far. If he has, I do not recall it; please correct me.

Couple those two points with everything he's ever said. His speeches are a treasure trove of libertarianism. I have yet to hear him explain how some taxes are actually beneficial, or how some level of taxation is beneficial and necessary and we shouldn't cut things below that level. Never.

One can also look at the people with whom he associates and has associated himself, and how he self-labels. He calls himself a Constitutionalist, a Libertarian, a Non-Interventionist. Are all those labels compatible with radical libertarianism? Yes. He says that he subscribes to the Austrian School of Economics. Are almost all Austrians radical libertarians (an-caps, voluntarists, market anarchists whatever you want to call them)? Yes. He says that his cause has been the cause of Liberty. What does it mean when someone's highest political ideal is that of liberty? What do we call such a person? And we don't exactly have to puzzle over the mystery of what exactly his personal definition of liberty is: he's shown that quite clearly via his voting record stretching back to the 70s, as well as telling us in many speeches and interviews and articles and books. His definition is the same as mine: lack of aggressive force. So again, what do we call such a person? His heroes he gives prominent place to are Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Ludwig von Mises, and Murray Rothbard. What can we learn from such a selection of heroes? He is a long-time supporter of the Mises Institute. What is their agenda (an agenda which Ron Paul clearly strongly supports)?

I conclude that Ron Paul is a radical libertarian. Has he also been influenced by Taft, Goldwater, and Hayek? Sure. I've been influenced by Hayek, but that doesn't mean I'm not a radical libertarian. We've all probably been influenced, consciously or unconsciously, by Plato, even though he's the ultimate anti-libertarian and top-down control advocate. Would it be interesting to explore the fabric of Ron Paul's thought, the unique connections he has made between all these thinkers? Probably. That would probably be a worthwhile discussion to have.

To participate in that discussion, you would have to first put aside your tedious attachment to haranguing those who you feel are too radical, an affectation that Dr. Paul does not share, by the way. Because that discussion would not be not worthwhile. It would probably not even be a discussion, just an endless repetition, making enemies where you should have friends. And what a waste that would be.

now you are patronizing me.
 
You are so full of shit.

I don't think you know what delusional means either.

Out of morbid curiosity and for the sake of bringing this thread back in to focus, do you have any original ideas?

EADC.

Out of morbid curiosity... what would it take for you to admit you are wrong, and that Ron Paul is everything he says he is? (supports the idea of individual secession - aka self-government, anarcho-capitalism, private law, voluntarism)?

...for the sake of bringing this thread back in to focus, do you have any original ideas?

Amusing that.. in fact, isn't what you are doing. I may have. What's the relevancy? Do I need to?




** Everybody please thank Newbitech! Thanks to his persistence 4.5k people have now been tweeted by Ron Paul addressing the question about Lysander Spooner and the US Constitution. He'd be so proud! Special shout outs to Trav, couldn't have done it without you bro!
surprised.gif
lol.gif
**
 
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EADC.

Out of morbid curiosity... what would it take for you to admit you are wrong, and that Ron Paul is everything he says he is? (supports the idea of individual secession - aka self-government, anarcho-capitalism, private law, voluntarism)?



Amusing that.. in fact, isn't what you are doing. I may have. What's the relevancy? Do I need to?




** Everybody please thank Newbitech! Thanks to his persistence 4.5k people have now been tweeted by Ron Paul addressing the question about Lysander Spooner and the US Constitution. He'd be so proud! Special shout outs to Trav, couldn't have done it without you bro!
surprised.gif
lol.gif
**

What's my motivation here?
 
Intellectual honesty thanks. I answered your question, answer mine.
rolleyes.gif


**Out of morbid curiosity... what would it take for you to admit you are wrong, and that Ron Paul is everything he says he is? (supports the idea of individual secession - aka self-government, anarcho-capitalism, private law, voluntarism)?**

What's my motivation here?

I dunno... to troll real supporters of Ron Paul, those that travel with him to the end of the line... and support individual secession aka self-government, voluntarism, private law etc.?
 
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Eat a dick cunt, was your response to me. You think you deserve an answer? Grow up, kid.

What? :confused:

http://www.all-acronyms.com/EADC

The middle one bro
wink.gif
. But seriously.. you just said I was full of shit.

What did you expect? Flowers? Talk about DELUSIONAL!
lol.gif


And that's not at all harsh compared to you supporting a gang of thieves writ large holding a f$cken gun to my head, and threatening to pull the trigger.. blasting my brains out all over the floor - if I don't join your social contract.

And now we get an easy cop out... you cannot state what it would take for you to accept than Ron Paul is a voluntarist / supports individual secession as an end goal. Why? Because he's already done it, you just won't accept it.

You're dogmatic. You're intellectually dishonest. And you've done what for the cause?

OH wait... I should correct that last one.. you've done a massive amount to HELP SPREAD THESE IDEAS OF VOLUNTARISM / PRIVATE LAW / ANARCHO-CAPITALISM ON HERE! You really need to be a new meme.

** Thanks for being a soundboard, champ **

Welcome to my ignore list. ** Many future thanks for the bumps you will no doubt continue to give **
 
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What? :confused:

http://www.all-acronyms.com/EADC

The middle one bro
wink.gif
. But seriously.. you just said I was full of shit.

What did you expect? Flowers? Talk about DELUSIONAL!

And now we get an easy cop out... you cannot state what it would take for you to accept than Ron Paul is a voluntarist / supports individual secession as an end goal.

You're dogmatic. You're intellectually dishonest. And you've done what for the cause?

OH wait... I should correct that last one.. you've done a massive amount to HELP SPREAD THESE IDEAS OF VOLUNTARISM / PRIVATE LAW / ANARCHO-CAPITALISM ON HERE! You really need to be a new meme.

** Thanks for being a soundboard champ **

Welcome to my ignore list. ** Many future thanks for the bumps you will no doubt continue to give **


Right, I'll believe that when you stop directing your comments towards me and bumping 2 year old posts for my special benefit. You are a provoker Conza88. You are more interested in trying to talk down to others so you feel good about yourself. You think way too highly of yourself and of your philosophy and of you logic.

Intellectual honesty requires two things, which from my observations of how you conduct yourself, you seem to have used up your allotment of both.

I am sorry if you feel insulted by me describing exactly how you conduct yourself. That is not my fault. Full of shit means something you said is not credible. Just like you posting in Ron Paul's name discredits Ron Paul. I am not going to say Ron Paul is full of shit for whatever crap you put in the twitter account with his name on it. I am going to say you are full of shit for spreading YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS in the name of Ron Paul.

It doesn't end there. You are also full of shit for calling me delusional on many many occasions. Do you know what a delusion is? The root word is to delude, which means mislead the mind or judgement. You have been attempting to delude Ron Paul's message for YEARS now. It would be one thing if you simply posted up some topical and relevant information. It's something totally different when you post up that information in an effort to diminish the spirit of one of the man's donors, activist, supporters, and voters. That has been your MO since day one.

In that process, you have also deluded philosophical discussions about anarcho capitalism, constitutionalism, voluntarism, and self government. You have even deluded other important subjects such as pathological diseases that cause a state which you are accusing me of being. Delusional. Do you know that delusions aren't just some cute word to use when you have nothing better to respond to someone's opinion?

You know who else accuses me of being delusional? My girlfriend. This is her way of telling me that I am right and bowing out of whatever argument we are having. It is usually followed by, what would you like me to cook you for dinner honey or would you like oral sex tonight. She and I both know that accusing me of having a pathological illness when none is present is sarcasm and signals her concession and the end of the "debate".

Another pathological state you are guilty of recently deluding is that of throat cancer. You think that is an easy out for your insult. This is how your forked tongue works and is precisely why you are guilty of deluding pretty every subject in regards to Ron Paul if it doesn't tie neatly in with your own self image. So you end up speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Trying to evade the extreme personal insult of telling me to "eat a dick cunt" by rationalizing and justifying it away by trying to delude people in to believing that you were really referring to throat cancer, which would STILL be a personal insult.

I think you may want to make sure you understand what a delusion really is and check with your doctor if you are that obsessed with the word. I understand that you may not have known what the word meant and at one point I didn't either. Once I realized what it meant, the only way to really use it in a none medical term would be to insult someone without actually bringing up the facts of why that person would be delusional.

Now I am sure you are still ignoring me, so I don't expect a direct response from you.

So I will answer your question. I want to know if you have any original ideas because if you do and explained them to me, then I'd be able to admit that I was wrong about you. As it stands, I don't think you or anyone else obsessed with labels know what an original idea is. Much less how to develop one and bring it from your head to it's logical conclusion which would be some sort of action.
 
** Everybody please thank Newbitech! Thanks to his persistence 4.5k people have now been tweeted by Ron Paul addressing the question about Lysander Spooner and the US Constitution. He'd be so proud! Special shout outs to Trav, couldn't have done it without you bro!
surprised.gif
lol.gif
**

Interesting for sure. Don't you think the tweet would have more credibility if Ron Paul sent it himself?
 
** Everybody please thank Newbitech! Thanks to his persistence 4.5k people have now been tweeted by Ron Paul addressing the question about Lysander Spooner and the US Constitution. He'd be so proud! Special shout outs to Trav, couldn't have done it without you bro!
surprised.gif
lol.gif
**

got a link to the tweet?
 
Right, I'll believe that when you stop directing your comments towards me and bumping 2 year old posts for my special benefit. You are a provoker Conza88. You are more interested in trying to talk down to others so you feel good about yourself. You think way too highly of yourself and of your philosophy and of you logic.

yep!
 
now you are patronizing me.
Such was not my intention. Such was not what I thought I was doing. I thought I was putting forth ideas and observations of an original and based-on-personal-reasoning-and-experience nature, that is, of the kind at which you expressed disappointment about being the only one able to present. Did my presentation fail in some way to meet your standards? If so, how? I would love to improve my communication skills.
 
No I didn't. You approached me first about something. So of course I responded. You asked me to clarify something, but we weren't involved in a discussion, so I started from scratch. I already explained "vague" post. You questioned why I gave you my beliefs. I answered. Apparently you are confused as to why you are having a discussion with me?

I'm not confused as to why, it began with my reply explaining my response to Trav's question. I just have no idea why you replied with what you did, as none of your responses have been very clear to me. But I really don't care at this point anyway.
 
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