Where Did The Particles That Started The Big Bang Come From?

[torchbearer]

hahahahahaha

+13. I'm laughing on the inside. Sad on the outside. He totally missed the point.
Which is easy to do when you aren't willing to see what is before you.

 

[amy31416]

So. . .how 'bout them amino acids?

 

[voytechs]

Every credible physicist will tell you. They don't know how all this started. There are a number of theories such as the universe expands for a while and then shrinks and collapses on itself causing another big-bang and everything starts all over. There are also a number of multi-universe theories, etc, etc..

But no one know for sure. I can tell you though, this is the part where even the scientists start admitting this might be the realm of God or at least that he had a hand in it.

 

[amy31416]

Every credible physicist will tell you. They don't know how all this started. There are a number of theories such as the universe expands for a while and then shrinks and collapses on itself causing another big-bang and everything starts all over. There are also a number of multi-universe theories, etc, etc..

But no one know for sure. I can tell you though, this is the part where even the scientists start admitting this might be the realm of God or at least that he had a hand in it.

Absolutely correct. There are some who say that we just don't know some event or we're missing some scientific principle, but the majority will admit that this is perhaps something that is unknowable and could be the realm of God.

Now, mind you, these guys, along with Einstein, when they talk about the possibility of God, it rarely has anything at all to do with a biblical God. It's more along the lines of a force of nature. It does not impose laws, it does not want you to give money at church on Sunday, it is a force of some sort that is unknowable by traditional means--some speculate that math is the language of "God" because of some of the "perfection" inherent in it. Particle physicists have their own "God particle" in the Higgs boson. If you're interested, here's a place to start checking it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_particle

I don't necessarily believe that myself, but I can see it as a possibility. It's interesting to consider.

 

[Mesogen]

Holy Crap. This thread grew to 17 pages in one day!

To answer the 1st question of the OP (I didn't read all 17 pages) there was apparently a slight excess of matter over antimatter in the almost symmetrical big bang. We just call it matter. If there were a slight excess of antimatter, then we'd call that matter.

I'll wade through these pages to see what this thread is all about.

 

[amy31416]

This is my official nag-o-gram for Torchbearer and Dr3D to come back to this thread and continue where they left off prior to disruption.

Don't make me try to guilt you into this. . .

 

[Mesogen]

Well, how long would it take to accidentally write a computer program that filled volumes and have it work correctly?

I agree with you on the complexity issue.

If you have enough volumes of gibberish, eventually something is going to happen in there somewhere.

Remember life just keeps going, building on what was previously working. You just need one or two things to "do something" (keep reacting on and on when energy is input) and eventually it will couple with some other oscillating or continuous reaction and these things will keep going and building in complexity. Give it a billion years (do you realize just how long a time that is?) and you have bacteria. Give it another billion and you have protists. This all seems to hinge on the presence of liquid water, organic molecules, and sunlight. And no I wasn't there to see this happen. And no I can't PROVE it.

 

[Mesogen]

I agree. It would require millions upon millions of years assuming the random events didn't get the code right the first time, which is a random possibility too.
But, you must understand, there is a structured code to life.
How do atoms become self animated, thoughtful creatures? That is the mystery of life.

What do you mean by "atoms being self-animated"?

All atoms are "animated." They are 'spinning' and their nuclei are 'vibrating' and their electrons are constantly 'moving.' Molecules are vibrating and rotating and their electrons are constantly being excited, etc. There is absolutely no essential difference in the carbon atom of a CO2 molecule once it becomes part of glucose and then becomes part of CO2 again one day. Or it becomes part of a hydrocarbon and is burned and becomes part of CO or one day becomes diamond or graphite. There is no essential difference between an oxygen atom in O2 or glucose or cellulose. The only difference is the way it shares electrons with its neighbors. (I'm not forgetting isotopes, but that doesn't make them different either. There are different isotopes in living things too.)

 

[Mesogen]

Here are some questions:

[*]Do explosions ever increase order?

Yes. Explosively formed diamond:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonation_diamond

A Mixture of two molecular solids explode under pressure and form diamond, which is more ordered than the two molecular solids

Now if the question asked "overall order" then, no. If heat was released and traveled from a hot spot to a cold spot, then total entropy must increase, as per the 2nd law of thermo. But local order was increased within the diamonds.

[*]Does energy alone produce order?

Organized energy is called matter. Matter can be and is ordered by energy. When the solar system was formed by gravity, and the Earth was forming, it was very hot. This allowed the iron to sink to the core and the different layers of the Earth to form. This is energy creating order.

[*]How many lightning bolts does it take to bring a corpse to life?

Don't know. Never tried.

Here are some objections:

[*]The problem of missing mass. Dark matter (invisible matter in and outside of galaxies) should exist because galaxies appear to have stronger gravity fields than can be accounted for by their visible matter.

Dark matter absolutely MUST be the hand of God. It's intelligent falling I tell you.

[*]Missing neutrinos (subatomic particles thought to come from atomic fusion in the sun).

Neutrinos are notoriously difficult to detect.

[*]Gas clouds dissipate outward (Boyle's Law).

Unless they are cold, and then they attract each other. And then when gravity overcomes any repulsive forces they clump together making gravity even stronger (localizing it). I tell you it's the hand of god pushing the Earth's atmosphere back onto the Earth. Otherwise is would all dissipate into space.

[*]Rarity of supernovas.

Never heard this one.

[*]More stars dying than there are years to form them, and no observations of new stars forming.

Bullcrap. There are plenty of observations of new stars forming.

[*]Dependence on the theory that red shift means only expansion away from our observation while there are known alternative reasons for red shift.

All those things are taken into account. But it's like the expansion of the universe accounts for most of the redshift and other factors are much less at great distances. How would you explain that the redshift looks the same with distance in all directions? How do explain the isotropy of redshift?

[*]Where's the big "hole" in the middle of the universe?

Wow.
There is no middle of the universe.

[*]Spiral galaxies would not hold their shape for the time they are supposed to have existed.

Says who?

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

[*]Does energy alone produce order?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TMZASCR-I

 

[Dr.3D]

If you have enough volumes of gibberish, eventually something is going to happen in there somewhere.

Remember life just keeps going, building on what was previously working. You just need one or two things to "do something" (keep reacting on and on when energy is input) and eventually it will couple with some other oscillating or continuous reaction and these things will keep going and building in complexity. Give it a billion years (do you realize just how long a time that is?) and you have bacteria. Give it another billion and you have protists. This all seems to hinge on the presence of liquid water, organic molecules, and sunlight. And no I wasn't there to see this happen. And no I can't PROVE it.

Just a little information I picked up off of the web:

It has been estimated the probability to be more than 10 to the 67th to 1 (10^67:1) against even a small protein forming by time and chance, in an ideal mixture of chemicals, in an ideal atmosphere, and given up to 100 billion years (an age 10 to 20 times greater than the supposed age of the Earth). Mathematicians generally agree that, statistically, any odds beyond 1 in 10 to the 50th (1:10^50) have a zero probability of ever happening (“and even that gives it the benefit of the doubt!”).

In function, DNA is somewhat like a computer program on a floppy disk. It stores and transfers encoded information and instructions. It is said that the DNA of a human stores enough information code to fill 1,000 books each with 500 pages of very small, closely-printed type. The DNA code produces a product far more sophisticated than that of any computer.

Even the DNA of a bacterium is highly complex, containing at least 3 million units, all aligned in a very precise, meaningful sequence.

Two well known scientists calculated the odds of life forming by natural processes. They estimated that there is less than 1 chance in 10^40,000 that life could have originated by random trials. 10 to the 40,000th is a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it!

How can one gain some conception of the size of such a huge number? According to most Evolutionists, the universe is less than 30 billion years old, and there are fewer than 10 to the 18th (10^18) seconds in 30 billion years. So, even if nature could somehow have produced trillions of genetic code combinations every second for 30 billion years, the probabilities against producing the simplest one-celled animal by trial and error would still be inconceivably immense!

Famed researcher Sir Fred Hoyle reportedly said that supposing the first cell originated by chance is like believing “a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.”

 

[Tratzman]

Hey all,

Here's how I understand it:

In the beginning there was nothing but an intelligence/awareness/consciousness that didn't exist in the physical. This intelligence contemplated itself and wanted to learn more about itself. It could only do this through expanding itself. That's where the Big Bang Theory comes into play-you could call it the expansion of the mind of 'God'. That's how Creation and physicality was formed, as an expansion of the mind of God. At the basic level, every atom of our being contains the energy of God, so that not only are we made by God, we're made from God as well.

I guess that's a simplified version of it all, but it works for me!

Chad

 

[SeanEdwards]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

"Unlike more conventional views of creation in modern physics, that are ex nihilo, the M-Theory vision, although not yet complete, is of the whole observable universe being one of many extended 4 dimensional branes in an 11 dimensional spacetime. Although branes similar to that representing our universe can co-exist in the theory, their physical laws could differ from our own, as could their number of dimensions. Some proponents of the theory now believe that a collision of two branes may have been responsible for the Big Bang (see Ekpyrotic)."

 

[scholarpreneur]

Steady State Theory FTW

 

[Mark]

Your God written bible also states this from the letters to timothy:




Women shall never hold a position over a man... and for her sins of betrayal in genesis, she needs to shut up, dress painly... and remain bare foot and pregnant as penance for her sins against humanity.
Thus says the lord.

This is the words of our God? We have strayed so far from his teachings.
Ok women. lay down and recieve your blessings from god.

From what I've read, those were the words of some dude named Paul. Not God.

---------

You really don't have any room to talk TB, as much evil you authorize that Brentians do all over the world in your name.

What? You make no claim to them even though they say they're doing it in your name?

I've heard that before, spoken by this dude named Jesus. These are His words:

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

Many will say to Me on that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many mighty works in Your name?

And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly." - Matthew 7:21-23

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To be fair to all, the first mention of wondering about other's viewpoint of the concept of God was made by the OP as early as post #4:

Very fair answer. This is not relevant, but just curious torchbearer, do you believe in god?

The first mention of religion was made by torchbearer in post #5:

sounds like religion to me. requires some blind faith.

---------

My earlier post-point being, was that it's not true/pure science, when possible solutions are removed from the list of acceptable answers.

Real science doesn't work that way. Real scientific discussion doesn't work that way.


When the OP stipulated that a being/entity/power, (however you describe/define God), could not be included/considered as a possible answer,
then the OP was indicating that this is a religious discussion, not a scientific one, based on their belief system that there is no such thing as a God.

For what is religion other than a belief system?

Thus my declaration of position that everyone discussing this question under the guise of it being a scientific exploration were incorrect.

-------

Science that declares that answers about the universe can not include the possibility of purposeful intelligence is not intellectual science,
it is religious science.

It is pseudo-science that embraces the dogma that there is no "God-like" being.

It is religion because it is based on a belief.

So, don't fool yourself that this is a pure intellectual scientific discussion if it's based on the proposition, or belief, that there is no God.

You're just "attending" a "science church service" when you include the dogma that the existence of some form of God can not be included.

If you want to have a true scientific discussion about where "particles that started the big bang came from",
then logic demands that all possibilities must be on the table for theorizing.

Absolutely including the possibility that they were purposefully created by an intelligent being.

AKA God.

 

[Bruno]

]From what I've read, those were the words of some dude named Paul. Not God.[/B]

---------

Was the book of Paul written by Paul? I thought there was no evidence to show that it was written by Paul at all. Neither are the books of Luke, Mark, and John? I saw it on the History Channel first, not saying it is true, just askin'.

 

[torchbearer]

Mark- I was talking directly to the people who believe every word of Paul's letters were directly inspired by God... thus, vicariously God's word.
Sorry you missed that.

 

[Mark]

Mark- I was talking directly to the people who believe every word of Paul's letters were directly inspired by God... thus, vicariously God's word.
Sorry you missed that.

I didn't really miss it Brent, sometimes you have to mold the bowl with the clay that's in front of you.

This universe is a wondrous thing, and no matter what, the means by which it became into being must be quite wondrous too.

Sidenote:

It's rough when your best friend's more loving than one can even comprehend but they have a bad reputation among some people based upon
evil deeds that other people have falsely claimed to have done in your best friend's name. It makes one really want to set the record straight.

 

[Mark]

Was the book of Paul written by Paul? I thought there was no evidence to show that it was written by Paul at all. Neither are the books of Luke, Mark, and John? I saw it on the History Channel first, not saying it is true, just askin'.

In general, The History Channel is just like all the rest of main stream media, they mix in enough good to make the propaganda they push seem real.

I don't think there's a book named Paul in the traditional Bible as we know it, but I think that there's a book named that in the Biblical Canon Of The Ethiopian Orthodox Church for one.

I think there's more evidence being found that there is some truth that certain people in the early part of the first century wrote down events as they saw them, or as were passed to them by word of mouth.

One of the problems is that a small group of men several centuries ago got together and decided what books would be included in the Bible as we know it today.

It's quite possible that they had an agenda and only approved books that didn't contradict what they wanted to teach. It's also quite possible that
they took certain parts of books out and replaced them with words that fit their agenda.

That's happened even recently with the Jehovah's Witnesses for example. They use what looks like a regular Bible but they change a few choice words to fit what they want to teach. I learned that the hard way. But when I was about 10 I decided not to blame God and hold Him responsible for what man did and said about Him.

I believe the general "themes" of the overall messages are still there if one tries to find them. I believe that's where the main inspiration of God
comes into play in the writing of the words. No matter what man does and changes, the truth about God is there to find. God is Love, and we should care for those in need and love and take care of each other. I believe that's the Will of God. That we should Love. That we should approach our dealings in life with Love. As long as true and pure Love is in our hearts, we're on the righteous path.

 

[torchbearer]

What do you mean by "atoms being self-animated"?

As in, I move myself. My motion is not the product of magnetic forces, or gravitational forces. My movements are products of my desire to move.
Brain coordinates muscle activity, and I move.
That is atoms being self animated.
Not talking about the atomic level of electron motion. Talking about my motions on this planet.