Where Did The Particles That Started The Big Bang Come From?

[amy31416]

We would have killed to have had something cheap 'n easy like ramen noodles then. Best we could do is Kraft dinner. For breakfast lunch and supper.

I'm so sorry.

 

[Mark]

God is not the answer, that just opens a whole other bag of questions just waiting to be answered with the same answer; God. Don't humour me with it.

Well then, it's like asking:

"What's the sum of 2+2?"

And then saying:

"4 is not an acceptable answer. Don't humor me with it."

You ask a question and then don't allow what could be the correct answer to be submitted.


It's quite pointless to ask a question and then only allow answers that only fit your desires for parameters.

It appears that you've asked this question only on the grounds that answers that go against your belief system are not allowed to be discussed.

Would you accept a scientific experiment that was prefaced with the statement that what turned out to be the ultimate true result wasn't allowed?

As in saying:
"What does a pint of water turn into after it's been kept at 20 degrees Fahrenheit for 24 hours?
I don't believe in ice, so don't say it, it's not true."

You've disqualified the question from the beginning, and this discussion was thus turned into from the start
merely a "pat on the back" feel-good exercise with people who agree with your viewpoint of existence.


Wow, another "let's imagine how all of this came into existence without having to acknowledge the existence of a Creator" thread on the Internet.

 

[Mark]

There shouldn't be a fight between atheists and theists. I'm only looking for scientific answers, which as you probably know, involves NO DOGMA at all! The dogmatic beliefs cannot be tested and are, therefore, not scientific.

Then it appears that your religion is Science. Science is your belief system.

The existence of God can not be considered dogma unless you will concede that non-belief in God is dogma. The dogma of your sect of Science.

----------

Point being, your acceptable toolset, or belief system, is limited to the physical dimension, ignoring the possibility of a spiritual dimension.


What if there is a Creator, and mankind's wisdom, or science, is at best merely foolishness compared to what that Creator knows?

You know the phrase I'm sure, "An exercise in futility". - Apply your initial question to the first part of the above sentence.

If the first part is true, then all of your scientific experiments that don' t allow for the existence of a Creator to be factored in the results are nothing more than exercises in futility, because your supposed definitive results will be incomplete. You've left out a definitive factor.

---

"Where did that beef hamburger on the grill come from?

We need to come up with something, it can even be remotely plausible, as to where the beef hamburger came from.

A cow is not the answer,
that just opens a whole other bag of questions just waiting to be answered with the same answer; a cow. Don't humor me with it. "


A beef hamburger discussion that's merely a fun exercise in imagination because it excludes the possibility that beef hamburgers are made from cows.

---

See, you must answer all the questions of the Universe without including God as a factor because your religion Science doesn't teach there is a God.

 

[american.swan]

What does that say about our universe in general?
If we code in 4bit/8bit base.
What is the universe coded in?
Like DNA to me looks like a program code.

Actually I like this observation but it gets even more complex because depending on the food and drugs we eat we can manipulate genes because the body has a built in control system that acts like a lot of light switches and various activities like exercise switches those switches AND the affects on some of those genes can be seen in for example the FOURTH GENERATION of rats.

Interesting stuff.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

I haven't ever heard a logical explanation, though I have heard a minority of which are slightly credible;
*The universe has always been here, and


-How has the universe always been here, how can something always be and never be made?

Who made 'nothing'?

(Nothing = no energy, no matter.)

'Nothing' is absence of 'something'.
(Something = matter or energy)

'Nothing' cannot exist without 'something' otherwise it would be 'everything' not 'nothing'.

(Would we ever have 'roads' if we never had 'cars'? Would we ever have 'day' if we didn't have 'night'?)

'something' is partner with 'nothing' to give us 'everything'.

By the way 'time' is neither 'something' or 'nothing', because it is a parameter of observable 'change' in 'something' and 'nothing'.
(Change = oscillation)

So either you accept an empty set could exist (which is impossible, because we wouldn't be having this conversation right now)
or you accept that which you view as 'nothing' and 'something' co-existing.

*There was nothing before the universe, not even time.

You cannot say there was 'nothing' 'before' 'universe' because that doesn't make sense.

Time itself only exists within the universe.

'time' is not something you can contain, so you can't say 'within'.
'time' is a parameter of 'change' of 'universe'.

When the universe was created, time was also created.

'Universe' was not 'created'.

'Universe' IS negative and positive infinity in every dimension you care to think of.

-Hard to understand, but, then how did the universe get created. It doesn't really address the question.

But we need to come up with something, it can even be remotely plausible, as to how the universe was born.

God is not the answer, that just opens a whole other bag of questions just waiting to be answered with the same answer; God. Don't humour me with it.

'Universe' IS an infinite set of infinite axis of 'changing' 'nothing' and 'something'.

We are only aware of some of these because we occupy the lower 3 dimensions.

Think of a 3D being somehow being able to observe a universe whose dimensions were capped at 2D.
(I do not believe this is possible, I think all lower dimension 'creatures' are part of our intrinsic structure)

All he would 'see' would be 2D entities forming a surface of an oscillating plane.

2D creatures cannot see the 3D being, and if he chose to cross their 2D dimension he would probably rip a hole in it.

Similarly, we are not aware of higher dimensions.
(I think we are just a lower dimensional component of a higher dimensional structure which is a component of the infinite dimensions of the universe)

This pattern repeats to infinity I would imagine.

While every dimension would probably be full of self-importance, none really are that important relatively speaking because there are an infinite number of them.

There maybe even negative dimensions, where everything happens in reverse to the positive dimension.

 

[Theocrat]

Questions & Objections

I haven't ever heard a logical explanation, though I have heard a minority of which are slightly credible;
*The universe has always been here, and
-How has the universe always been here, how can something always be and never be made?
*There was nothing before the universe, not even time. Time itself only exists within the universe. When the universe was created, time was also created.
-Hard to understand, but, then how did the universe get created. It doesn't really address the question.

But we need to come up with something, it can even be remotely plausible, as to how the universe was born.

God is not the answer, that just opens a whole other bag of questions just waiting to be answered with the same answer; God. Don't humour me with it.

Here are some questions:

1. Do explosions ever increase order?
   
2. Does energy alone produce order?
   
3. How many lightning bolts does it take to bring a corpse to life?

Here are some objections:

1. The problem of missing mass. Dark matter (invisible matter in and outside of galaxies) should exist because galaxies appear to have stronger gravity fields than can be accounted for by their visible matter.
   
2. Missing neutrinos (subatomic particles thought to come from atomic fusion in the sun).
   
3. Gas clouds dissipate outward (Boyle's Law).
   
4. Rarity of supernovas.
   
5. More stars dying than there are years to form them, and no observations of new stars forming.
   
6. Dependence on the theory that red shift means only expansion away from our observation while there are known alternative reasons for red shift.
   
7. Where's the big "hole" in the middle of the universe?
   
8. Spiral galaxies would not hold their shape for the time they are supposed to have existed.

 

[torchbearer]

You know, we went through many pages of post without the religious flame wars.
It really isn't necesary.
You aren't going to convince the OP of anything.
It is better to add your thoughts to the totallity of the thread.

Your religious bias turns people off as much as the OPs athiest bias. Yet you can't see the similarity of both of your opinions.
That's right, opinion.

First step is to admit that we all don't know everything about this universe, and then work together in openess to express our perceptions.

Instead, I see religious people on here being just as divisive as the athiest, and nothing gets done but insults and unprovable opinions on all sides.

We gave you an example in this thread of how intellectual discourse can occur with people of different views, yet you still resort to the same BS that I have read in many threads prior to this one.

Take a lesson from your saviors humility. Get off your high horse, you don't know everything.
And if you think you do, you have shut yourself off from ever learning the truth... which is bigger than our minds can comprehend.

 

[amy31416]

Here are some questions:

1. Do explosions ever increase order?
   
2. Does energy alone produce order?
   
3. How many lightning bolts does it take to bring a corpse to life?

1. What is your timeline? The big bang created order in the forms of solar systems, planets, galaxies, elements, etc.

2. Energy can indeed alone produce order, if you consider that energy and matter are interchangeable. E=MC^2, M=E/C^2.

3. You'll have to ask Dr. Frankenstein.

Here are some objections:

1. The problem of missing mass. Dark matter (invisible matter in and outside of galaxies) should exist because galaxies appear to have stronger gravity fields than can be accounted for by their visible matter.
   
2. Missing neutrinos (subatomic particles thought to come from atomic fusion in the sun).
   
3. Gas clouds dissipate outward (Boyle's Law).
   
4. Rarity of supernovas.
   
5. More stars dying than there are years to form them, and no observations of new stars forming.
   
6. Dependence on the theory that red shift means only expansion away from our observation while there are known alternative reasons for red shift.
   
7. Where's the big "hole" in the middle of the universe?
   
8. Spiral galaxies would not hold their shape for the time they are supposed to have existed.

Still lots of mysteries to be solved, ain't science cool? Kudos to the astronomers for all the things they've discovered and figured out so far, I'm sure they'll find more mysteries the deeper they dig.

 

[Hiki]

You know, we went through many pages of post without the religious flame wars.
It really isn't necesary.
You aren't going to convince the OP of anything.
It is better to add your thoughts to the totallity of the thread.

Your religious bias turns people off as much as the OPs athiest bias. Yet you can't see the similarity of both of your opinions.
That's right, opinion.

First step is to admit that we all don't know everything about this universe, and then work together in openess to express our perceptions.

Instead, I see religious people on here being just as divisive as the athiest, and nothing gets done but insults and unprovable opinions on all sides.

We gave you an example in this thread of how intellectual discourse can occur with people of different views, yet you still resort to the same BS that I have read in many threads prior to this one.

Take a lesson from your saviors humility. Get off your high horse, you don't know everything.
And if you think you do, you have shut yourself off from ever learning the truth... which is bigger than our minds can comprehend.

You sir, are the personification of awesome.

 

[amy31416]

You know, we went through many pages of post without the religious flame wars.
It really isn't necesary.
You aren't going to convince the OP of anything.
It is better to add your thoughts to the totallity of the thread.

Your religious bias turns people off as much as the OPs athiest bias. Yet you can't see the similarity of both of your opinions.
That's right, opinion.

First step is to admit that we all don't know everything about this universe, and then work together in openess to express our perceptions.

Instead, I see religious people on here being just as divisive as the athiest, and nothing gets done but insults and unprovable opinions on all sides.

We gave you an example in this thread of how intellectual discourse can occur with people of different views, yet you still resort to the same BS that I have read in many threads prior to this one.

Take a lesson from your saviors humility. Get off your high horse, you don't know everything.
And if you think you do, you have shut yourself off from ever learning the truth... which is bigger than our minds can comprehend.

Gotta give you a +1 for this.

 

[Theocrat]

Fire Extinguisher

You know, we went through many pages of post without the religious flame wars.
It really isn't necesary.
You aren't going to convince the OP of anything.
It is better to add your thoughts to the totallity of the thread.

I've not started any "religious flame wars." I'm asking questions and giving objections. It is you who seeks to kindle flames of animosity by your very mentioning of there being a "war" in this thread, torchbearer.

Your religious bias turns people off as much as the OPs athiest bias. Yet you can't see the similarity of both of your opinions.
That's right, opinion.

Everyone has a bias. The question is who has the correct bias. Your opinion that the truth I hold to as being absolute is opinion is noted.

First step is to admit that we all don't know everything about this universe, and then work together in openess to express our perceptions.

I never claimed I know everything about the universe. Admittedly, I don't even understand my God completely. Just as you, I'm open to scientific explanations and explorations of our universe. I like science, after all.

Instead, I see religious people on here being just as divisive as the athiest, and nothing gets done but insults and unprovable opinions on all sides.

Ideas have consequences, so it makes sense that different ideas will separate people into various groups where they agree with those who share their beliefs.

We gave you an example in this thread of how intellectual discourse can occur with people of different views, yet you still resort to the same BS that I have read in many threads prior to this one.

This thread is just like every other thread on these "Ron Paul Forums." It's just that you don't like it when someone comes along presenting an alternative idea which assumes absolute and universal truth as a way to gauge science, morality, etc.

Take a lesson from your saviors humility. Get off your high horse, you don't know everything.
And if you think you do, you have shut yourself off from ever learning the truth... which is bigger than our minds can comprehend.

You appeal to my Saviour's humility while yet denying His sovereignty and power over His own universe. Don't cherry-pick if you want nothing to do with the entire tree, my friend. As I've said before, I don't claim to know everything, but that doesn't mean I can't shut down people's assumptions, question their motives, and call them out on their logic when they make statements and arguments which are false, contradictory, and down right foolish. I think I have the intellectual ability and liberty to do so, but I give God all the praise for that. It is He Who teaches me daily about Himself and His universe. I try to sprinkle some seeds in the hopes that God waters them in the hearts of those who sincerely desire truth. If that makes me proud, then my boasting is in the Lord of the heavens and the earth, not the random, illogical whims of men who falsely hold to views which are anti-science and ultimately, anti-God.

 

[torchbearer]

Your God written bible also states this from the letters to timothy:

9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Women shall never hold a position over a man... and for her sins of betrayal in genesis, she needs to shut up, dress painly... and remain bare foot and pregnant as penance for her sins against humanity.
Thus says the lord.

This is the words of our God? We have strayed so far from his teachings.
Ok women. lay down and recieve your blessings from god.

 

[Theocrat]

Personal Attacks, Mingled With Ignorance

Your God written bible also states this from the letters to timothy:




Women shall never hold a position over a man... and for her sins of betrayal in genesis, she needs to shut up, dress painly... and remain bare foot and pregnant as penance for her sins against humanity.
Thus says the lord.

This is the words of our God? We have strayed so far from his teachings.
Ok women. lay down and recieve your blessings from god.

Obviously, you need a new word in your vocabulary: hermeneutics. What does this have to do with that big dud called the "Big Bang Theory?" It seems your ability to attack God so futilely has eroded your capability to remain germane on this thread, which is what you were attacking me for earlier. I think it's time someone put his torch down and stood in the corner wearing a Dunce cap...

 

[amy31416]

Well there goes this thread. What a shame, it was pretty interesting.

 

[torchbearer]

Well there goes this thread. What a shame, it was pretty interesting.

It was.. and i think it served a purpose, gave me some new things to think about...
Now i enjoy leading the ignorant to their ignorance. I love seeing them squirm their way through their own many contradictions.
If they choose to remain ignorant, then I shall treat them like fools and make them the jesters of this court of opinions.

They are our entertainment this afternoon. Though unfortunately, i have to go to my next client here in a few.
Remember, god wants you submissive and pregnant. God says so in the bible. it must be truth. lmfao.

Simple minds indeed.

 

[asgardshill]

Well there goes this thread. What a shame, it was pretty interesting.

Indeed. Whether its the twoofers or the thumpers or the Hitler jammie-wearing crowd, it seems that somebody always has to come along and throw fly shit in the black pepper.

 

[amy31416]

It was.. and i think it served a purpose, gave me some new things to think about...
Now i enjoy leading the ignorant to their ignorance. I love seeing them squirm their way through their own many contradictions.
If they choose to remain ignorant, then I shall treat them like fools and make them the jesters of this court of opinions.

They are our entertainment this afternoon. Though unfortunately, i have to go to my next client here in a few.
Remember, god wants you submissive and pregnant. God says so in the bible. it must be truth. lmfao.

Simple minds indeed.

You know, Torchbearer, I saw a whole different side of you in this thread--very thoughtful (not that you usually aren't or anything ), speculative, it was cool reading back through your posts and seeing someone put these things together and relate it to how programming code and circuits and things like that work. It allows a more profound insight into how we work, think and how things are put together. Many people never take the time to think about things in different ways.

So, I hope you'll carry on in the spirit of where you were going with the thread before it was derailed. And I'll work on that submission and pregnancy thing, STAT!

 

[amy31416]

Indeed. Whether its the twoofers or the thumpers or the Hitler jammie-wearing crowd, it seems that somebody always has to come along and throw fly shit in the black pepper.

It was bound to happen, and one thing that I'll suggest is that we possibly try the same tact with those who would interrupt the thread as the one suggested by RPHawaii toward SGP. It'll work if we're all on board with it.

 

[Theocrat]

It Came Frome One of Your Own

Just for the record, this thread "went sour" when torchbearer posted this:

You know, we went through many pages of post without the religious flame wars.
It really isn't necesary.
You aren't going to convince the OP of anything.
It is better to add your thoughts to the totallity of the thread.

Your religious bias turns people off as much as the OPs athiest bias. Yet you can't see the similarity of both of your opinions.
That's right, opinion.

First step is to admit that we all don't know everything about this universe, and then work together in openess to express our perceptions.

Instead, I see religious people on here being just as divisive as the athiest, and nothing gets done but insults and unprovable opinions on all sides.

We gave you an example in this thread of how intellectual discourse can occur with people of different views, yet you still resort to the same BS that I have read in many threads prior to this one.

Take a lesson from your saviors humility. Get off your high horse, you don't know everything.
And if you think you do, you have shut yourself off from ever learning the truth... which is bigger than our minds can comprehend.

I had nothing to do with it. I posted questions and objections about the "Big Bang Theory," which was along the lines of the OP. Apparently, torchbearer has something personal against theocrats like me. I just wanted to give some food for thought and discussion in this thread.

 

[sophocles07]

Apparently, torchbearer has something personal against theocrats like me.

hahahahahaha