Where Did The Particles That Started The Big Bang Come From?

[brandon]

How about this thought rational thinker.
You have two finite objects, say needles, that are touching at the heads.
Now move to two objects apart the smallest distance possible so that they are not touching. Now that the objects aren't touching divide the distance between them in half. If the two objects are the absolute smallest distance apart possible then theoretically it should be impossible to divide the distance in half yet we can still do so mathematically and conceptually.
The truth is there is no such thing as space and time and mathematics is the imperfect tool to understand the universe.

This is pseudo-math. You have to first specify which number system you are using. If you are using real numbers, then there is no smallest distance that you can move them apart. If you are using discrete numbers, such as integers, then this number system does not allow division.

 

[torchbearer]

But what if time began with the big bang? Time and space are inseparable as well. Time-space.

Time-space is common sense.

When you tell someone to meet you at 5pm. That isn't enough information.
5pm, where?
or-
If you tell someone to meet you at the bus stop. That isn't enough information.
The bus stop when?

Everything is a where and when.
Meet me at the bus stop at 5pm.

At every place you step, you are there at a certain time. Your Space, in time.

 

[brandon]

Why would you accept that when there are still avenues of science and philosophy to explore? You are accepting a conclusion that has no scientific basis.

Then can you explain to me how something was created from nothing? I dont think it is possible to create something from nothing, so i reject the idea that the universe was created. It has always existed

 

[LibertyOfOne]

There are unknowable and unanswerable questions and that is certainly one of them. Science cannot provide an answer only theories so faith in what happend is required if you need an answer. That can come from God or science or some of both - depending on how you want to believe.

Did something come from nothing?
Has something always been?
If it is infinite- how can it have a beginning?
If something always was that led to everything else- where did it come from?
If it has always been- what suddenly caused it to change?


Just as we do not know the facts of the beginning, we will not know what happens at the end. We have only this segment of time on Earth for certain- if we can be certain that we are here on Earth at this moment.

All pointless questions.

 

[Hiki]

There shouldn't be a fight between atheists and theists. I'm only looking for scientific answers, which as you probably know, involves NO DOGMA at all! The dogmatic beliefs cannot be tested and are, therefore, not scientific.

There shouldn't, but when you bring up this issue specifically in this forum, then you're going to get one religion vs. science argument again.

Infinity is something we can't understand. If you say that everything has just always been and really start to think about it, then your brain goes into an overload.

 

[LibertyOfOne]

I haven't ever heard a logical explanation, though I have heard a minority of which are slightly credible;
*The universe has always been here, and
-How has the universe always been here, how can something always be and never be made?
*There was nothing before the universe, not even time. Time itself only exists within the universe. When the universe was created, time was also created.
-Hard to understand, but, then how did the universe get created. It doesn't really address the question.

But we need to come up with something, it can even be remotely plausible, as to how the universe was born.

God is not the answer, that just opens a whole other bag of questions just waiting to be answered with the same answer; God. Don't humour me with it.

Again pointless. If there is no evidence to draw from than why bother?

 

[amy31416]

Scientists are allergic to the word God.

Funny that some particle physicists are looking for the "god particle."

 

[Hiki]

Time-space is common sense.

When you tell someone to meet you at 5pm. That isn't enough information.
5pm, where?
or-
If you tell someone to meet you at the bus stop. That isn't enough information.
The bus stop when?

Everything is a where and when.
Meet me at the bus stop at 5pm.

At every place you step, you are there at a certain time. Your Space, in time.

That's right. Time and place, that's how we live.

Mayan Calendar Once again, this video nails this whole thing.

 

[Perry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist)

I read his last book. Good stuff.

This is pseudo-math. You have to first specify which number system you are using. If you are using real numbers, then there is no smallest distance that you can move them apart. If you are using discrete numbers, such as integers, then this number system does not allow division.

I don't think you are quite comprehending the problem.
Let me ask you this question. If you review the situation i presented and move the two object apart the smallest distance possible is it then possible to move them closer together without the objects touching by cutting the distance between them in half?

 

[Hiki]

I don't think you are quite comprehending the problem.
Let me ask you this question. If you review the situation i presented and move the two object apart the smallest distance possible is it then possible to move them closer together without the objects touching by cutting the distance between them in half?

Haha... I loved this philosophical thing when presented to us in class. Can you really run around the sport stadium? To run it you have to reach the half point of it, and to reach the half point of the whole course then you need to reach the half point of the half point, and it goes ooon and oon...

 

[Perry]

Then can you explain to me how something was created from nothing? I dont think it is possible to create something from nothing, so i reject the idea that the universe was created. It has always existed

This is where communication breaks down and in text it becomes extremely difficult as we have limited vocabularies and our precise understanding of words in our vocabulary sometimes differs.
I don't think based on what we know that you can reject either the idea that the universe was created or the idea that it has always been.
"Always" is a word dealing with time and time only exists on our plane of life but when working with matter and energy time itself has very little meaning or purpose.

 

[brandon]

This is where communication breaks down and in text it becomes extremely difficult as we have limited vocabularies and our precise understanding of words in our vocabulary sometimes differs.
I don't think based on what we know that you can reject either the idea that the universe was created or the idea that it has always been.
"Always" is a word dealing with time and time only exists on our plane of life but when working with matter and energy time itself has very little meaning or purpose.

Ok, i get what your saying. Basically, our current system of logic is not capable of explaining what created the universe, if it was created.

I can accept that.

 

[LibertyOfOne]

How about this thought rational thinker.
You have two finite objects, say needles, that are touching at the heads.
Now move to two objects apart the smallest distance possible so that they are not touching. Now that the objects aren't touching divide the distance between them in half. If the two objects are the absolute smallest distance apart possible then theoretically it should be impossible to divide the distance in half yet we can still do so mathematically and conceptually.
The truth is there is no such thing as space and time and mathematics is the imperfect tool to understand the universe.

Such an "imperfect" tool has brought us the very computer you are using.

 

[amy31416]

My thoughts are that it is unknowable, and will remain so for a long time. Until then it's an endless circular completely philosophical exercise.

But still, a very interesting question.

 

[torchbearer]

Such an "imperfect" tool has brought us the very computer you are using.

Computers break. Explain that one.
A perfectly running computer will someday, not run at all.

 

[LibertyOfOne]

Computers break. Explain that one.
A perfectly running computer will someday, not run at all.

That is just a dumb statement. The breakage of computers has nothing to do with the underlining mathematics. Hardware can degrade with static shock, environment, user stupidity, and a ton of other factors. Not only that but people use software that is made by fallible humans who make code errors.

 

[Hiki]

I'm just waiting what theocrat has to say about this.

 

[brandon]

I don't think you are quite comprehending the problem.
Let me ask you this question. If you review the situation i presented and move the two object apart the smallest distance possible is it then possible to move them closer together without the objects touching by cutting the distance between them in half?

No. You are assuming space is discrete, meaning there is a smallest unit of distance. If this is true, then you can move to objects apart by one unit. You cannot move them closer together by half that unit if space is discrete.

 

[forsmant]

I always thought that the universe changes every time we come to understand the way it works. It really doesn't want to be understood. Stupid universe.

 

[Perry]

Such an "imperfect" tool has brought us the very computer you are using.

Yes. It's a good tool for what it does yet mathematics obviously has its limitations. Our current rule set of Physics and math tell us that we absolutely do not have a will. We are merely machines and each particle in our body follows the laws of momentum and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction yet common sense and logic dictate that we have the will to choose. Just another example of maths limitations.