Where are the LIGHT DUTY DIESEL Pickups and SUV's?

[AFPVet]

If we wanted excellent MPG and power, most of our vehicles would be turbo diesel by now. They already have clean diesel technology... damn regulations. Oh, and diesels can run on about anything... including used vegetable oil*

*With a little kerosene added to thin out the mixture in cold temperatures.

 

[Origanalist]

Diesel powered scooter.......

I want one, and I bet I could turn it around without having to back up.

 

[acptulsa]

If we wanted excellent MPG and power, most of our vehicles would be turbo diesel by now. They already have clean diesel technology... damn regulations. Oh, and diesels can run on about anything... including used vegetable oil*

*With a little kerosene added to thin out the mixture in cold temperatures.

Very little kerosene.

Yeah, all true--but I'm going to quibble over terms. Turbodiesels aren't bad on power. But any normally aspirated diesel has relatively less power than a gas engine. They do not lack torque. Torque is sheer force; power is a measurement of how much torque you can produce per second. So, diesels are used to carry heavy loads, because they make the torque, but aren't used for dragsters because power gives you acceleration and gas engines give you power. Turbines, meanwhile, are slow to spool up and don't give you engine braking, but run on any fuel.

In a hybrid the engine runs a generator (alternator). Doesn't matter what kind of engine it is. Any engine can turn an alternator.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Much win in this thread.

Why not an 80-90 mpg Ford Focus diesel, while we are at it?

 

[coastie]

Much win in this thread.

Why not an 80-90 mpg Ford Focus diesel, while we are at it?

Meh, while I like the whole nearly 100mpg thing, I don't like the
a). Ford thing
b). Being encased in something that could totally double as a space ship of some sort. Man that thing is fugly.

 

[tod evans]

In my mind I'd not considered electric drive motors....I was stuck on pure diesel propulsion without all of the EPA crap and no computer to go out....

Have you looked at Volvo's prototype electric car? Motors at each wheel...The concept is sound but the electronics cause me to shudder..

Sort of, though there's no reason for it to be limited to urban duty (except that the state regs I'm out to meet, in some cases, prohibit expressway operation) and I wasn't thinking of kits. But, you know, it's not that hard to convert a conventional vehicle to electric or electric hybrid. So, skirting federal regulations by rebuilding and repowering older vehicles could be done as well. So, the main functional difference between the hybrid system I envision and what you're talking about is that my powerplants are off the shelf new production diesel generators in boxes that can be stuffed anywhere, and you're talking about the old hot rodder trick of inventing special motor mounts.

In fact, Perkins makes three cylinder generators, so my hybrid could use that engine too. I doubt it would need one quite that big, though. It sure wouldn't need a turbocharger. Mechanically, it's an electric with all the torque two or four electric motors can produce (well, actually we wouldn't be using locomotive axle motors, so it would merely have quite enough torque). All the diesel (or turbine, or whatever) needs to do is recharge the batteries some.

 

[acptulsa]

Have you looked at Volvo's prototype electric car? Motors at each wheel...The concept is sound but the electronics cause me to shudder..

Yes, more than one of them, including some interesting turbine-electric work. And the electronics for electric drive are simpler than the electronics for engine management. Far simpler. Remember, there were electric cars more than a hundred years ago, when you still had a lever in the hub of the steering wheel on your gas buggy to advance and retard the spark as you accelerated and slowed. Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

 

[tod evans]

I'm not against the idea, I'm just ignorant...

I keep going back to what I know....Mechanical stuff.

I'm familiar with basic wiring in industrial settings, motor controls and the like but in my brain I'm able to visualize current flow..Once things get complex enough that motors are offering feedback to a computer that equalizes torque in an attempt to correct for oversteer/understeer I get lost...

Is the system you envision using current drive-line technology or something similar to the Volvo concept?

Yes, more than one of them, including some interesting turbine-electric work. And the electronics for electric drive are simpler than the electronics for engine management. Far simpler. Remember, there were electric cars more than a hundred years ago, when you still had a lever in the hub of the steering wheel on your gas buggy to advance and retard the spark as you accelerated and slowed. Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

 

[acptulsa]

Is the system you envision using current drive-line technology or something similar to the Volvo concept?

For a mini truck? I envision great simplicity. But that doesn't mean traction control couldn't be available as an option. It would enable off-roaders to get more benefit from four motor drive, and people who live in snowy climates might find the cost and complexity worthwhile.

 

[tod evans]

For a mini truck? I envision great simplicity. But that doesn't mean traction control couldn't be available as an option. It would enable off-roaders to get more benefit from four motor drive, and people who live in snowy climates might find the cost and complexity worthwhile.

Great simplicity to me means using the existing differential :o...

What I hear you saying is design a new rear (or front) differential/suspension system to encompass electric drive motors...At this point the generator and battery pack could be placed anywhere in the vehicle, not necessarily under the hood..

All of the technology we're talking about is available off the shelf now it'd just be a matter of fitting it to a vehicle..

Makes me wonder about battery weight, even with lithium ion...In order to fit the package into an existing vehicle without redesigning the whole undercarriage weight and weight distribution would be a big factor..

 

[presence]

And the electronics for electric drive are simpler than the electronics for engine management. Far simpler. Remember, there were electric cars more than a hundred years ago, when you still had a lever in the hub of the steering wheel on your gas buggy to advance and retard the spark as you accelerated and slowed. Electrics honestly don't need much but a rheostat and a reversing relay. And turning the motors into generators for regenerative braking isn't really any more complex. Just another relay. Compared to oxygen sensors and knock sensors, ignition timing controls and fuel injector controls, electric drive stuff is child's play and sixty years proven or more.

For conversion:

http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp11.php = electric motor capable of propelling a ford ranger to 75 mph $3000
http://www.evsource.com/tls_Soliton1.php = "rheostat" another $3000
http://www.evsource.com/tls_lithium_calb.php = batteries; you'll need another $3500 / 2000lb in this category

The motor bolts right up to an adapter plate eliminating clutch and engine; possibly tranny too. You've still got $2500 in charge controller, fuses, wiring, etc. The problem with EV is range. You're up against the fact that for every 100 miles of range in a Light Duty Truck you need about 2000 lb of battery.

About 10k to get a ford ranger rolling forward w/ 100 mile range on electric. If you really want to get fancy another 20k will let you dock it during the day and charge by solar... then drive at night?

presence

 

[tod evans]

Anybody notice that this thread has drifted from diesel powered small trucks to electric power?

 

[presence]

In my research of EV it just doesn't seem practical (yet)... huge battery cost, huge battery payload, battery replacement every 36-72 months; 10K plus for a conversion... TDI IMHO is the magic. Grease only makes things better.

I'm driving a 98 vw tdi; 48 mpg last tank. My project truck is a Toyota 2L diesel into an Gen 1 Toyota 4x4; I'm expecting 32+ mpg. If I could only dump half the junk vehicles I have I could afford to finish it. My neighbor has 3 Dodge's w/ 12v and 24v Cummins; he runs 100% Chinese fryer grease by summer; 50/50 w/ regular diesel in cold. The only thing he does is filter the grease 2x through 10 micron. He doesn't titrate/remove glycerin. He says even when he counts the time he has in acquiring/filtering the grease at $20/hr he's still paying under a buck a gallon. The big dodge works for him as a daily driver because he hauls stone. I've beefed up my suspension in my vw so I can haul 500 lbs of tools in the trunk; its my 48 mpg work truck.

 

[acptulsa]

The motor bolts right up to an adapter plate eliminating tranny and engine. You've still got $2500 in charge controller, fuses, wiring, etc. The problem with EV is range. You're up against the fact that for every 100 miles of range in a Light Duty Truck you need about 2000 lb of battery.

About 10k to get a ford ranger rolling forward w/ 100 mile range on electric. If you really want to get fancy another 20k will let you dock it during the day and charge by solar... then drive at night?

Anybody notice that this thread has drifted from diesel powered small trucks to electric power?

I didn't do it! Or, at worst, I only half did it!

Is this an electric or a diesel?

The answer is yes and no. It's a diesel-electric. It cannot run off of third rail, overhead wire, or any of the things a straight electric locomotive runs on. It also does not have a clutch and transmission for its huge, amazingly torquey diesel to destroy. Instead, it runs on electricity like an electric locomotive, but that electricity is generated by the on-board diesel.

I haven't been talking straight electrics, just hybrids. Electric drives have advantages, which is why most diesel locomotives (and all large diesel locomotives) are diesel-electric. One is the fact that electric motors are very tractable; they smoothly deliver torque and power. Another is that they are dependable and last a long time. A third is they can act as generators, and give you regenerative braking. And the generator and motors are lighter than most automatic transaxles, and less complex than any.

Add batteries and the whole thing becomes heavier. But that enables you to use the power you saved from regenerative braking to help power you back up to speed. There's a lot to be said for a hybrid.

huge battery cost, huge battery payload, battery replacement every 36-72 months; 10K plus for a conversion...

There are indeed drawbacks. Just having enough battery capacity for regenerative braking and acceleration holds down battery cost (initially and replacement) and payload-robbing weight, and this helps reduce conversion cost. Seems to me the trick is to have just enough capacity to reduce your engine size without losing performance. This doesn't require nearly as much capacity as getting decent range from pure electric power does. And if you design the vehicle around that in the first place, you save the weight and cost of a transaxle, which is significant.

 

[presence]

Is this an electric or a diesel?

I've actually read about someone building something like that using a Geo Metro shell and a 10HP Yanmar Diesel. Can't find the link. The idea is actually becoming popular as auxillary power for sailboats. keywords Yanmar SD20 Hybrid Saildrive


interesting...


Biodiesel and SVO Discussion Forums
Build Your Own Hybrid and while you're at it, run on BD or WVO
http://www.biodieseldiscussion.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25463

8/20/2007
Icymudpuppy
Senior Member


Hello Everyone,

Some of you may have read about my 1955 IHC pickup I have converted to VO. However, the 1976 Chrysler-Nissan Diesel doesn't run well on Biodiesel or VO, experiencing significant loss of power at lower RPMs. So, I am reworking the whole thing. Tearing out the powertrain and starting fresh.

I will be making a biodiesel/electric hybrid using a 13HP Yanmar diesel generator.

Sent PM to our RPF Icymudpuppy...

 

[acptulsa]

I've actually read about someone building something like that using a Geo Metro shell and a 10HP Yanmar Diesel. Can't find the link.

Not surprised.

Many years ago, people tried to do the same thing with flywheels. Braking energy from the wheel motors powered up a heavy flywheel, and the flywheel energy was tapped for acceleration. The main problems were that a flywheel would lose some of that stored energy spinning while the vehicle was parked, and that heavy, high speed flywheels don't last even as long as batteries.

But they were interesting experiments. Especially since, if you mounted them in the right place and had them spin the right direction, the gyroscope action could make for a sweet-handling car.

 

[tod evans]

I didn't do it! Or, at worst, I only half did it!

Guilty as charged:o

All of these ideas have merit somebody pick a path and lets head willy-nilly down it to see where it ends..

 

[acptulsa]

All of these ideas have merit somebody pick a path and lets head willy-nilly down it to see where it ends..

We could make it pay. We could make it end in profit.

America once had a tradition of driving for pleasure, before the World Wars (and our own wastefulness) used up our oil reserves, and the oil companies and the government then spoiled the party. The rise of motorcycles indicates there's still a desire for little getaways, but not everyone wants to be out in the weather, and not everyone wants to balance a machine that weighs hundreds of pounds and costs thousands of dollars. There are businesses who know they can improve their bottom lines if only they could be free to do what Europe does, too. And there are people who don't want some of this crap we have to buy in our new cars like air bags (nothing like a safety device that deploys with lethal force and can kill you dead by itself). And though any car on the American market today is more powerful and more stable than, say, an ancient MG, some don't consider any of them as fun to drive because the government won't let you build a four-wheeler that light in weight.

I think this minitruck/cyclecar notion would have a ready market waiting for it. The two products could be developed from a single platform, and they would pay for its development handily. And we'd educate some people on why the federal government is a menace in the process. Why can't a four-wheeled be as light, efficient and nimble as this three-wheeled cyclecar? Washington, D.C., that's why.

Of course, they'd have to look good. And the two passenger, three wheeled car version would have to be fun to drive. But that can certainly be arranged.

 

[presence]

Not surprised.

Many years ago, people tried to do the same thing with flywheels.

I've done a bit of reading on that subject too. Something I picked up was that you got better storage out of a higher speed thick plastic flywheel (I think they were using lexan) than you do out of a heavy steel flywheel. Not sure of the science behind it. The other element I learned was that counter rotating flywheels balance those gyro forces.

 

[georgiaboy]

Great thread. Though this is not an area of expertise for me, I've become much more interested in clean diesel, esp. biodiesel. Given the MPGs of some of the new diesel autos, seems like this is a no-brainer.

Somebody get the right business plan & prototypes, coupled with a few "de-regulate" or "smart regulate" bills sponsored by friendly legislators, in front of Peter Thiel.