What's Your Take on Romans 13?

[robert68]

Well, how do you understand it? Calvin basically just restated what the Bible says on this: God ordains everything that comes to pass.

Then it's impossible to disobey "God".

 

[Sola_Fide]

Than it's impossible to disobey "God".

No its not. Because there is a difference between God's revealed will and His decreetive will.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Well, Peter says this:

If God wants everyone to come to repentence, why would he predestine anyone to go to Hell? That would seem contrary to his nature.

Exodus 9:12



If God predesines everything that happens in this case, why did he need to specifically intervene here, and why did he do so? If everything is predestined, for God to specifically change Pharoah's heart would be odd.

There are some other texts as well but I haven't actually argued this in awhile so I have to search again. I do recognize that there are plenty of proof texts for a more Calvinistic view as well, and I'm not really sure what side I'd fall on. Ultimately I'm not convinced that it really matters.

Who was the book of 2 nd Peter written to?

And what is the context of that passage?

 

[Christian Liberty]

Who was the book of 2 nd Peter written to?

And what is the context of that passage?

I'm not a theologian, I don't know the answer to that. Not sure how you can change the meaning of "Everyone" though.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I'm not a theologian, I don't know the answer to that. Not sure how you can change the meaning of "Everyone" though.

The answer to who it is written to is in the first couple of sentences of the book.

"Everyone" is defined by who is spoken about in the passage. Who is the group of "everyone" Peter is speaking about there?

 

[Christian Liberty]

So God only wants people in Asia Minor to be saved?

I can see your argument here, and I think you have one. I also think its arguable that Romans 9 has nothing to do with Salvation at all.

 

[erowe1]

So God only wants people in Asia Minor to be saved?

I don't necessarily agree with SF's line of argument. But this conclusion wouldn't follow from it logically. If the verse meant that God wanted certain people to come to repentance, without really meaning all people, that would not imply that God didn't want anyone outside of that group to come to repentance. It would only be a positive claim about those belonging to the circumscribed group, without saying anything at all about everyone else.

 

[WhistlinDave]

Hmmm. I see. So your objection is not Biblical. Well, as a Christian, I believe that God has spoken to man in the Scripture, and the Bible teaches that God has ordained everything that comes to pass.

God works everything together after the counsel of His will.

So then we are given only the illusion that we have free will? Kind of nullifies the whole culture fight against secularism... Whatever God hath ordained is going to come to pass regardless of what we do.

 

[Sola_Fide]

So God only wants people in Asia Minor to be saved?

I can see your argument here, and I think you have one. I also think its arguable that Romans 9 has nothing to do with Salvation at all.

You are a Baptist? So am I. Here is a discussion of 2nd Peter from another Baptist:

 

[Christian Liberty]

So then we are given only the illusion that we have free will? Kind of nullifies the whole culture fight against secularism... Whatever God hath ordained is going to come to pass regardless of what we do.

Yeah, the implicit nihilism borrows me a little. I have the unusual bias of having been raised both Arminian AND Calvinist, my parents changed from the former to the latter a few years back.

There's really two types of Calvinism, infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism. I'm curious which one Sola Fide holds to, since I find supralapsarianism entirely incompatible with a non-evil divine being.

 

[Christian Liberty]

You are a Baptist? So am I. Here is a discussion of 2nd Peter from another Baptist:

Will watch, thanks.

 

[Sola_Fide]

So then we are given only the illusion that we have free will? Kind of nullifies the whole culture fight against secularism... Whatever God hath ordained is going to come to pass regardless of what we do.

It's a given that whatever comes to pass is what God has ordained...but how does this mean that it nullifies what we are to do?

I don't even agree with the whole "culture fight" narrative. That is a Roman Catholic conception based in coercion.

 

[Sola_Fide]

I don't necessarily agree with SF's line of argument. But this conclusion wouldn't follow from it logically. If the verse meant that God wanted certain people to come to repentance, without really meaning all people, that would not imply that God didn't want anyone outside of that group to come to repentance. It would only be a positive claim about those belonging to the circumscribed group, without saying anything at all about everyone else.

Absolutely right. And when the passage is qualified by "dear friends" and "the ones who have received the same faith as ours", it is clear that the passage is referring to the elect.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Most of the time "Culture fight" implies government force. that's not a wagon I want to jump on. Delete the coercion and persuade people, that I can get behind.

Its worth mentioning that John Calvin was a hardcore theocrat, and a torture-murderer. His theology, whatever its merits, were way better than he was.

 

[Todd]

Food for thought FWIW.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Food for thought FWIW.

Will watch, especially since I feel like this passage is either brought up or implied every time civil disobedience of any kind is brought up.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

No its not. Because there is a difference between God's revealed will and His decreetive will.

And perhaps a totally secret will that only those filled with the spirit of revelation can hear...similar to the US gov.

 

[seyferjm]

Will watch, especially since I feel like this passage is either brought up or implied every time civil disobedience of any kind is brought up.

I just got the book last week.

 

[Tor_Hershman]

I left a comment @ the video.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Well, Peter says this:

If God wants everyone to come to repentence, why would he predestine anyone to go to Hell? That would seem contrary to his nature.

Exodus 9:12



If God predesines everything that happens in this case, why did he need to specifically intervene here, and why did he do so? If everything is predestined, for God to specifically change Pharoah's heart would be odd.

There are some other texts as well but I haven't actually argued this in awhile so I have to search again. I do recognize that there are plenty of proof texts for a more Calvinistic view as well, and I'm not really sure what side I'd fall on. Ultimately I'm not convinced that it really matters.

Did I really write this crappy a post less than a year ago? Especially the last sentence?

Ick...