What's the big deal? Why not a world wide government?

And why liberty? Because it is an enabler, and I think people should be enabled. Maybe some people are evil and shouldn't be enabled, but I don't trust the government much to draw the line. Perhaps we should give all of ourselves liberty and let God sort it out?

Won't it be messy? Sure--but so is your mechanic. Don't you want him enabled?
 
Paula, I have lost count how many times I have told you this. I want a limited constitutional republic; NOT A DEMOCRACY. Our founders did not agree with mob rule; neither do I. With such a government, the vast majority of governing is SELF-government.

Do you understand the difference between a democracy and a republic? This is the best thing I have seen that explains it.
http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/welch.html

Don't be patronizing. I know exactly what you are talking about. I am arguing for government based on the consent of the governed, I have not specified a form, only a principal, and I have no problem with the form we have in place, just the fact that we don't use it.

Many would argue what we have is in fact democratic. It most certainally is based on democratic ideals.

You jumped on a valid point I made and felt you had to prove yourself smarter - but the point is still valid.

For those who propose anarchy they are proposing a system that will quickly degenerate into smaller mobs controlling larger numbers.

I contrasted this with the criticism I see of democracy all of the time as mob rule. If I had to choose I would choose larger mobs controlling smaller numbers of people.

I didn't say either was right, only trying to point out what appears to me to be the absurdity of the anarchists on this board.
 
Anarchy WILL degenerate into mob rule more quickly than any democratic system.

If you don't believe that people are capable of handling any sort of democratic system then tyranny is your only choice.

as I said, it will just be smaller mobs taking advantage of larger groups of people.

But it will be a small mob that the larger group knows where they live.

Saying there is only a choice between anarchy and democratic mob rule is presenting a false choice, and I am calling B.S.

The one thing you have right is that the average joe is only going to regain their rights by demanding them. Those in power are most assuredly not going to say "Oh, we have been bad! We need to give back all the rights we have taken!"

So who are you going to have better luck confronting about your lost rights? Your mayor, or a congressman (or worse yet, some governing body that could be centralized on another continent?)
 
Don't be patronizing. I know exactly what you are talking about. I am arguing for government based on the consent of the governed, I have not specified a form, only a principal, and I have no problem with the form we have in place, just the fact that we don't use it.

Many would argue what we have is in fact democratic. It most certainally is based on democratic ideals.

You jumped on a valid point I made and felt you had to prove yourself smarter - but the point is still valid.

For those who propose anarchy they are proposing a system that will quickly degenerate into smaller mobs controlling larger numbers.

I contrasted this with the criticism I see of democracy all of the time as mob rule. If I had to choose I would choose larger mobs controlling smaller numbers of people.

I didn't say either was right, only trying to point out what appears to me to be the absurdity of the anarchists on this board.

Nope. I was calling you on your false choices. You offer the choice of 2 mobs. I prefer neither.
 
But it will be a small mob that the larger group knows where they live.

Saying there is only a choice between anarchy and democratic mob rule is presenting a false choice, and I am calling B.S.

The one thing you have right is that the average joe is only going to regain their rights by demanding them. Those in power are most assuredly not going to say "Oh, we have been bad! We need to give back all the rights we have taken!"

So who are you going to have better luck confronting about your lost rights? Your mayor, or a congressman (or worse yet, some governing body that could be centralized on another continent?)

Well I'm up to the Federal courts and a title 42 secton 1983 lawsuit right now. The mayor doesn't give a damn, and he won't unless enough of the people start to understand what they've lost.

Your last paragraph has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make.
 
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Anarchy WILL degenerate into mob rule more quickly than any democratic system.

If you don't believe that people are capable of handling any sort of democratic system then tyranny is your only choice.
as I said, it will just be smaller mobs taking advantage of larger groups of people.

And where did I say they were the only two choices????

I would suggest you read ALL of LE's post on a Republic vs Democracy. If you don't get it after that, I truly have to say I believe you are beyond hope.

You may not agree with all of it, but I hope you can understand the distinction being made.
 
A world wide "sound money" system could be a good thing, couldn't it?

What about universal "civil rights"? I've got no problem with this, do you?

What if one of those "rights" is to not be hungry? I would share, wouldn't you?

Let's face facts, we HAVE a global economy and that isn't going to change. We are contaminating the space we live in on a global scale, so we have to take responsibility on a global scale.

The issue isn't the scale of government (world wide or arbitrary "nations") the issue is the source of the power - money or the consent of the governed, and the way it is exercised - to perpetuate power or for the good of mankind.

The issue isn't if the system is "democratic" or "republican" or "communist" or "socialist", the issue is, are the rights of the people protected and is humanity as a whole going forward or backward?

The issue is, is what happens to the rest of the world more important than what happens to you personally?

I think part of the issue is that the freedom of the People and the concept that the government is answerable only to them is far more uniquely American than in other countries that we might wish to mutually dissolve borders with. Look at the fight we have going on just in our own country right now for these principles. Are you going to trust a bunch of legislators and citizens of perhaps Indonesia, Georgia, the Ukraine, Mexico, North Korea, and France to all step up and push back against tyranny year after year? I think we should restore our own house over the next few hundred years, and then see what the world community looks like. We also have the military strength and nuclear arsenal to allow the 233 year experiment to proceed.
 
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Did you not say that you want global government? Let's see, yup, the title of the thread is, "What's the big deal? Why not a world wide government?"

do you believe people should have separate distinct governments?

you must not believe all humans of this world are equally entitled to protection of rights?
 
By saying the "consent of the governed", you are saying the majority; thus, mob rule.

Is mob rule always bad?

Again, what if your mob consented to take everything you own and throw you in a gulag? What then, Paula?

If the same mob lynched a child molester or rapist, what complaint then?

Uh, Paula, you know that the Constitution is for the purpose of limiting the scope and power of the FEDERAL government, right?

Purpose? yes.
Has the ability? No.
 
A worldwide government, at this juncture, would require the subjugation of various cultures, laws, morals, religions, among other things. This is not happening in a bubble. You are talking about putting mortal enemies under one Government, and forcing one side to share their resources with the other. Really, what you are asking is that everyone give everything up for the greater good. You are not only advocating a world Government, but you are pretty much proposing Communism.

What you will have is the reason that Communism, in pure form, does not last. In theory it's a grand thing. No one starves, no one's out of work, everyone gets the same thing. In reality, you are removing competition, and you are delegating the "everything" to a select group of people to keep watch. All our food goes to, for instance, a "Food Czar" I guess. What happens is that, when someone wants more food, or better quality, they will sip the "Food Czar" a bit of something he wants. It could be a service, a trinket, or whatever else. Suddenly, things aren't so equal. Suddenly, we are bartering for things and not everyone is on equal footing anymore. This reintroduces the possibility that some people will have little or nothing in the long run. Everyone loses everything, except for the few who control who gets what. This is why "Communism" we see today tends to reveal a curious disparity between the leadership (and usually the military) and the people living in "equality".

With a single Government, there is a complete lack of choice in the matter. I like the hodgepodge and variety our world presents at the moment. There are countries for people who enjoy theocracies. There are nations with nationalized healthcare and just about everything paid for with taxed. There are others where this isn't the case. There are cold areas, hot areas, arid, humid... it's endless. When this single Government decides to do something you hate, what is your option? Go to the moon? Lobby, plead, and petition?

With a single Government, if we are going to make it a Democracy instead... well you would need to think of the logistics there, but let's assume for a moment our fearless leader will be elected. The 7 billion people on the planet are going to vote. How many of those are Chinese and Indian? What sort of representation do you believe is going to be achieved when those two nations gobble up the bulk of the votes? Keep in mind this is not some ideal China or India... this is the nations as they are now. If we are not doing things by population, then perhaps by land mass! Wait... hmm... Greenlanders seem to get an astounding percentage of the vote. What about Canadians? So much land unused and unlived-in. No, that wouldn't be fair either. How about we just forego borders? But there were borders before, and there are still cultures, no matter how much of a gooey global melting pot you want to pretend it will become.

There will still be people living in areas prone to disaster, or will our Government get us moved away from there? There will still be people living in areas where transportation is incredibly difficult or impossible, or will our Government focus efforts to move those people or build roads/bridges? It seems like there would be an awful lot taken from people that worked very hard to earn it, to do what the leadership deems "important". What is the incentive to work when what you do doesn't benefit anyone you come into contact with?

Ah and here you will say "but don't you want to help your fellow man?!?" And that is the ultimate straw man argument. You said you do want to share. Who, right now, is stopping you? You can have homeless people at your table. You can rent out rooms to the needy. You can volunteer. You can adopt a child or twenty or whatever. You can visit the elderly. You can contribute money to good causes. The problem I have is the audacity of someone proposing something like this, to tell me what's worthy, and to deign to tell me what should be done with my resources. I won't even say money, but resources; time is finite and precious. The people who contribute most to the "have not"s in this world are people who have earned their money.

Forcing people to be all perfectly equal never works, anyhow. There's always something. The logical next step down this slippery, mud-caked slope is to say that some people will feel inferior to others because some are prettier. Free plastic surgery for all! Some are taller, or shorter, or get arthritis, or have diabetes, or whatever else... in short: life is not fair to us. There are ups and downs and it's up to us to work our way out of it and, if we so desire, to help others as we can... not to bring every human being down because it's too hard to do anything on our own.
 
I think part of the issue is that the freedom of the People and the concept that the government is answerable only to them is far more uniquely American than in other countries that we might wish to mutually dissolve borders with. Look at the fight we have going on just in our own country right now for these principles. Are you going to trust a bunch of legislators and citizens of perhaps Indonesia, Georgia, the Ukraine, Mexico, North Korea, and France to all step up and push back against tyranny year after year? I think we should restore our own house over the next few hundred years, and then see what the world community looks like. We also have the military strength and nuclear arsenal to allow the 233 year experiment to proceed.

I was discussing an idea. I still think it's a good idea, but I didn't mention that it might take a couple of generations to get this country back on its feet and then a couple of centuries to get enough other countries on board.

If it takes more than a generation or two to get our freedom back, there won't be a country left to fight for.

And I don't know if you've noticed but "We (the people) don't have a military - "They" are the ones with a military.
 
A worldwide government, at this juncture, would require the subjugation of various cultures, laws, morals, religions, among other things.

I never said anything about now.

Really, what you are asking is that everyone give everything up for the greater good. You are not only advocating a world Government, but you are pretty much proposing Communism.

With a single Government, there is a complete lack of choice in the matter.

I never said anything about a single government either.



Ah and here you will say "but don't you want to help your fellow man?!?" And that is the ultimate straw man argument.

No, here is where I say whose posts are you reading anyhow? I think you've just made the ultimate straw man argument.
 
I would suggest you read ALL of LE's post on a Republic vs Democracy. If you don't get it after that, I truly have to say I believe you are beyond hope.

You may not agree with all of it, but I hope you can understand the distinction being made.

His is not the only school of thought, and a lot of it is just mental masturbation when we've lost our basic civil liberties. Let's get those back and worry about the sematics later.
 
His is not the only school of thought, and a lot of it is just mental masturbation when we've lost our basic civil liberties. Let's get those back and worry about the sematics later.

Yeah I was seriously hoping you would come back by posting the text of the Communist Manifesto or something. It would be an honest argument from you for a change instead of the crack whore shilling you have been doing.

You couldn't touch anything Robert Welch had to say, so as usual you just dismiss it as "mental masturbation" without pointing out where Welch is so very very wrong.
 
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I never said anything about now.

I never said anything about a single government either.

No, here is where I say whose posts are you reading anyhow? I think you've just made the ultimate straw man argument.


You're right. Your title, "...Why not a world wide government?" must not have referred to a worldwide government. It must have referred to the reasoning for why the sky is blue.

Forcing everyone to give up any sense of self or identity because it's "the right thing to do" or "gives everyone equal rights" is not freedom. That's as basic as I can make it. The good intentions of some are not worth sacrificing any and all variety in our world. The less intervention by any Government, to an extent, the better. "The consent of the governed" would imply that there's some way of seeing whether or not there's consent, like a democratic election.

I've been reading your posts, actually. Worldwide money has nothing to trade against and no real value. Universal "civil rights," you will find, will not be the least bit universal. The geographic and cultural differences which you dismiss so easily will not change in a generation or two or three, and will be difficult as hell to overcome. Absorbing a place into oneself in name does not make it automatically bow to one's will.

Why not one world government? Because we're not all the same.
 
You're right. Your title, "...Why not a world wide government?" must not have referred to a worldwide government. It must have referred to the reasoning for why the sky is blue.

Forcing everyone to give up any sense of self or identity because it's "the right thing to do" or "gives everyone equal rights" is not freedom. That's as basic as I can make it. The good intentions of some are not worth sacrificing any and all variety in our world. The less intervention by any Government, to an extent, the better. "The consent of the governed" would imply that there's some way of seeing whether or not there's consent, like a democratic election.

I've been reading your posts, actually. Worldwide money has nothing to trade against and no real value. Universal "civil rights," you will find, will not be the least bit universal. The geographic and cultural differences which you dismiss so easily will not change in a generation or two or three, and will be difficult as hell to overcome. Absorbing a place into oneself in name does not make it automatically bow to one's will.

Why not one world government? Because we're not all the same.


World wide government for world wide issues just as we have federal government for federal issues. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

And why is so difficult to understand that "unalienable rights" by definintion are universal and must be if a government is based on the consent of the governed.

All I have tried to point out here is that at some point there will probably be a need for world wide authority and if that authority is ultimately derived from consent of the governed as our government is supposed to be it could be legitimate and useful. The problem with the current political situation is that "THEY" control things not "We the People".

I am very disappointed at the caliber of thought on this board. A few people finally got it, but most kept ranting their usual pet peeve, and these pet peeves aren't going to fix a damn thing.

It doesn't do anything to bicker about details, you have to deal with what is making our government illegitimate and it's the same thing that made British government illegitimate in 1776.
 
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