WHAT WE'RE UP AGAINST IN THE GENERAL: My Argument with a Flock of Communists...

You can learn about macroeconomics from macroeconomics classes in college. If you can't go just get a pdf or check out a book on intro and intermediate macroeconomics, every book is the same. Also, read economics blogs (like the Paul Krugman new york times blog). You can also learn about why austrian economics are shit from the internet.

Paul Krugman was owned so badly by comments on his blog - complete with scholarly references to other mainstream economists even - that he had to disable comments and later reenable them, while restricting them to extremely short ones that couldn't contain any real substance. He's a smart guy, and he had the chance to become a good economist, but he's nothing more than an egotistical propagandist nowadays. If you want to learn from mainstream economists, you should probably pay more attention to the new classical school than the new Keynesian school, and pay more attention to practically ANYONE than Krugman.

Austrian economics are not "shit." People call them a "pseudoscience" because Austrians use logic instead of empiricism, but that's a hazard of the "scientistic prejudice" that has incentivized nearly every field to try to foolishly refashion itself as a science, simply to remain respectable (say hello to religion/philosophy masquerading as science in the form of intelligent design). Mathematics and computer science aren't empirical sciences either, but you thankfully don't hear people calling them "pseudoscience" as a pejorative, because those fields don't contradict academic dogma.

If you look back in history, you'll find that Mises and the Austrians were very well regarded in the early 30's or so, and Mises generated a lot of intellectual excitement...but he lost steam after Keynes created his General Theory and was pushed hard by moneyed interests. After all, FDR NEEDED Keynesianism to retroactively justify his actions, and academia was eager to accept theories which made economists into economic policy gods instead of mere theorists; statist economic theories indulge the urge to experiment and play God, and they appeal to the urge of economists to hold important bureaucratic and advisory positions outside of academia. As always, institutional inertia is a prevalent force in universities and academic publications: For starters, research grant money isn't exactly issued nondiscriminately, and libertarians who would refuse it on principle are inherently at a further disadvantage. Status quo professors determine who gets tenure, who gets published in academic journals, and who even receives a doctorate at all. Very few have the personal integrity to aid someone who might discredit their entire life's work, and ego demands the short-sighted marginalization of anyone who would dare try. That's why it takes a long time before prevailing views change in any field, even the sciences...or perhaps especially the sciences, because of the esteem that prestigious academics are held in, and because of their sheer intelligence defending their work, even if it rests on fundamentally erroneous assumptions.

The truth is, using empiricism with complex data is not well-suited to developing the backbone of an economic theory, because economists frequently draw fundamental relationships from correlated variables without properly isolating the variables they're dealing with. In short, they overfit to their sample data, without respect to the millions of underlying variables that may be more important, and which may take on incidentally correlated values among the data sets they're studying. The classic example is the Phillips curve, which posits a fundamental inverse relationship between the rate of inflation and the rate of unemployment. It was used as the bedrock of Keynesian policies for decades, until stagflation totally stumped practically EVERY economist (except the Austrians). The reason is, these economists foolishly study very specific phenomena in isolation from one another, when they aren't actually isolating their variables, and their different theories in various branches of economics aren't even necessarily self-consistent.

In contrast, the Austrians study the economy as a unified system, where each aspect of their theories is consistent with the rest, and particularly consistent with the theories of supply and demand and price theory. Those theories should be the basic foundation of nearly ALL economics, but even the most brilliant mainstream economists are too deeply indoctrinated by the "scientistic prejudice" (coined by F.A. Hayek) to give this approach a chance. Instead, these economists who have been CONSISTENTLY WRONG choose to ignore and dismiss Austrians wherever they disagree. Meanwhile, their pea-brained followers on the Internet rely on appeals to authority and arrogantly spew unsubstantiated vitriol at the Austrian economists, who have been consistently right about everything but timing. "Oh, a broken clock is right twice a day, blah blah." In reality, it's more like: When the policy is always the same, a wise oracle will always predict the same disastrous outcome.

Establishment economists were wrong about the Federal Reserve preventing further depressions. They were wrong about the inflation/unemployment relationship. They were wrong when they said gold would plummet after Bretton Woods failed. They were wrong about the housing bubble...oh, no, wait. There's one exception: Nouriel Roubini was able to predict the collapse of the housing bubble, because (if I recall correctly) he was able to cite the completely obvious overleveraging of the banking system in the mid 2000's...but considering that's a totally shallow - and totally OBVIOUS - symptom of the problem, I'm not going to give him too much credit. (EDIT: Actually, I take that back: I must be conflating his views with the post-meltdown silliness of his contemporaries. Roubini was able to recognize the bubble based on the supply/demand/price fundamentals of the housing market alone, so he does deserve credit for seeing that at least.)

Actually, it's all too common for mainstream economists to mistake the symptoms of a problem for the actual problem, because their basic methodology routinely demands shallow thinking...which doesn't help to understand a complex system. For instance, Keynes believed the Great Depression was caused by oversaving, when everyone spent like crazy in the 20's. After the economy started to slow, of COURSE people were saving en masse. Mainstream economists believe our problem in the Great Depression and the current depression was a lack of liquidity and aggregate demand...yet government spending to stimulate aggregate demand DIDN'T WORK. It shouldn't be surprising, because low aggregate demand is only a shallow symptom of the real problem! If you ask these guys to cite more fundamental factors that lead to depressions and the problems they cite (e.g. low aggregate demand), most of them will handwave about "animal spirits" or "irrational exuberance." I guess they just don't have the tools to dig beneath the surface, and they don't have the intuition to recognize the way government can uniquely distort market signals over an extended period of time (since it can uniquely use regulatory force and employ "unlimited" resources to manipulate the price of credit or practically anything else). If you had a stomach virus and diarrhea, and you went to Dr. Krugman for a cure, he'd put some duct tape over your butt to fix the diarrhea and tell you you're good to go! Once it failed, well...guess he didn't use enough duct tape!

In contrast, Mises predicted the Great Depression a couple years before it happened, and he spelled out exactly why. He predicted the ultimate failure of the Soviet system in his book "Socialism," and he spelled out why. The Austrians predicted the collapse of the Bretton Woods agreement, and they predicted that gold prices and demand would increase rather than decrease. The Austrians predicted the current depression and financial meltdown, and they were able to cite factors much more fundamental than "animal spirits" or "overleveraging." They can tell you exactly WHY every major corporate bank was overextending themselves at once, without any of them recognizing each other's fragility and calling for shipments of physical cash reserves or following a different policy.

Now, I don't necessarily think Austrians are perfect either: They're awesome at qualitatively analyzing the circumstances of any economy, the incentives therein, and the ultimate consequences of given economic policies...but they make little to no attempt at determining timing, and I think they could learn something here from their more empirical counterparts. Empirical economic data is very tricky to analyze and base entire theories off of, without respect to logic or common sense - which is where I think mainstream economists fail - but using empirical data and econometrics and running a "sanity check" against the logical Austrian model might allow them to make tentative predictions about timing. I'm no expert though, so what do I know?

In addition, mainstream economists occasionally make rational criticisms of the Austrian Business Cycle Theory. I'm not yet knowledgeable enough to discern whether the Austrian response to these criticisms is sufficient to fully defend the theory or whether the theory needs some manner of adjustment, but they do in fact provide defenses. Unless and until I become knowledgeable enough to debate the specifics at the level of professional economists, I believe the Austrians have earned the benefit of the doubt. After all, I AM knowledgeable enough to realize the vast gulf between the predictive power of the various schools, as well as the complete irrationality of Keynesianism and the empirical failure of mainstream policy prescriptions. If nothing else, I think we should be taking the mainstream economists' superiority complex and their occupation of the most prestigious universities with a huge grain of salt, considering the way they have been consistently - and gravely - wrong. Instead, I think we should be paying much more attention to the guys who have been warning about those same mistakes all along. ;)

All that said: I DO agree with ericthethe that people should learn a bit about mainstream economic theories as well (e.g. neoclassical economics). The smarter economists actually ARE right about a lot of things, and they [IMO correctly] state that the Austrians overstate their differences with them. You can learn a lot from mainstream economics, but just remember to take their macroeconomic theories with a grain of salt. Resist internalizing them too deeply until you've had the chance to examine the opposing Austrian viewpoint...which, to deliberately misquote Milton Friedman and say the opposite of what he said, "The Hayek-Mises explanation of the business cycle is consistent with the evidence. It is, I believe, true." ;)
 
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I wouldn't worry about them. We've got to get past the primary first. If we win then Ron Paul simply has to play the antiwar / anti-police state card like there is no tomorrow and watch the left fracture.

I hope Ron basically reprises his 1988 run in the general, or otherwise shoots from the hip (like he did in the sit-down ABC interview regarding Elizabeth Warren's comments); I'm giggling just from the thought of the shitstorm that would kick up.

That RP video I referenced:

 
Your original post to the OP, which was rude, inflammatory, and unnecessary:

Why are you posting this here? You want us all to congratulate you for your smug, try-hard, self-important and pretentious attempt at "educating" your friends?

Followed by being a grammar nazi:

people who*

When corrected on your error in your own correction, followed by insulting me:

May be correct but it's an overused word and makes you appear poorly educated. Keep trying.

Followed by a rant on the overuse of 'that', ignoring the fact I only used it once.

Followed by:

SNIP You can also learn about why austrian economics are shit from the internet.
without any actual reasoning or clarification on Ron Paul forums.

So excuse me if I don't believe you when you say:
I'm not here to stir up trouble.
 
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You lost me when you called Communism fair. How can it be "fair" when you cannot keep the fruits of your labor?
 
Very nice points gb13. I've encountered the exact same Corporate/State complex argument with others, but could never wrap up my voluntary exchange idea neatly. I'm going to have to take that rapist analogy for jokes ;)

@AceNZ, could you elaborate how the moral argument would be framed? I'm assuming since we're abiding by social contract, we agree to similar moral grounds.
 
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Maybe not. But it's not necessarily important to convince them, per se. It's important to convince the onlookers who are on the fence, and are often influenced by whatever viewpoint prevails in a given argument. These civilian debates must be held in public at the grassroots level to convince the masses who are watching along.

+rep! Lots of people don't understand this converting the onlooker argument!
 
Not really. 'That' is used way more often than it should be. It's annoying and muddies up the flow of sentences. More times than not it can be omitted and a person still makes sense.

Look at this example:

There was this guy that I knew long ago that would talk about things that were interesting. He often said that he would do something that was important. It turns out that he ended up doing something that was boring.

Now without:

There was this guy I knew long ago who would talk about interesting things. He often said he would do something important. It turns out he ended up doing something boring.

Much better.

I'm not here to stir up trouble. You can continue to try to mock me, though. You're doing a great job. Good luck in your endeavors.

So good to know that that will win us the election. Or, rather, that a lack of that will win us the election.

May we get back to discussing how to win over the misguided now? Thanks for that...
 
You want to convert people to Paul?
Ask your friends (Marxist or Neocon):
Who do you believe should have ultimate control of your life?

Let them think about that. How many "marxists" do you know who would willingly lose civil liberties so the homeless can eat? Would willingly embrace the draft so income is equal? Communism is wholly, proudly, unabashedly Collectivism. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It can not allow dissent, or free speech BY DEFINITION....your opinion, your voice is irrelevant, and silenced. If you are a danger to the state, you are removed.

Who should be the 'Boss' of your life?

The State?, A Deity? An employer? Or should we have sovereignty over ourselves?
 
Why are people talking about a "general election?" Has Ron hinted that he's going to make a 3rd party run?
 
Why are people talking about a "general election?" Has Ron hinted that he's going to make a 3rd party run?

No. The thread was probably posted under the tentative assumption that we'll win the nomination...and either way, it doesn't hurt to try converting some independents and liberals now, because we need all the primary votes we can get. :) The committed Marxists referenced in the OP aren't likely to come around anytime soon, but other observers just might.
 
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Why are people talking about a "general election?" Has Ron hinted that he's going to make a 3rd party run?

TC, we're going to get this man the nomination. We're going to flood the convention, vote for who we're supposed to vote for for as long as our state laws say we have to, listen patiently while they carry on about how this is the first brokered convention in however many years, and nominate the only guy who can beat Obama.

Sorry if you disapprove, but you might as well start getting used to it, because it's what we're going to do.
 
Not really. 'That' is used way more often than it should be. It's annoying and muddies up the flow of sentences. More times than not it can be omitted and a person still makes sense.

Look at this example:

There was this guy that I knew long ago that would talk about things that were interesting. He often said that he would do something that was important. It turns out that he ended up doing something that was boring.

Now without:

There was this guy I knew long ago who would talk about interesting things. He often said he would do something important. It turns out he ended up doing something boring.

Much better.

I'm not here to stir up trouble. You can continue to try to mock me, though. You're doing a great job. Good luck in your endeavors.

That is one of the lamest attempts at internet grammar police that I’ve ever seen.:toady:
 
TC, we're going to get this man the nomination. We're going to flood the convention, vote for who we're supposed to vote for for as long as our state laws say we have to, listen patiently while they carry on about how this is the first brokered convention in however many years, and nominate the only guy who can beat Obama.

Sorry if you disapprove, but you might as well start getting used to it, because it's what we're going to do.

Well, the title of the thread actually made it sound like Ron had somehow actually won the nomination, even though he hasn't won a single state. I'm not trying to make anyone mad here, but are we not allowed to be realistic and objective when we post here? It just seems like people here don't really accept reality. There's never been a Republican who's won the GOP nomination without winning one of the early states. Intrade has Romney at an 88% chance of winning the nomination with Ron at a 3% chance. I'm all in favor of Ron staying in the race so that he can try to spread his message and influence the Republican Party, but that's all that can possibly happen at this point.
 
Your original post to the OP, which was rude, inflammatory, and unnecessary:

Thanks for that, dude. I initially wasn't even going to acknowledge his remark, but I have to tell you (and the many others on this thread who are helping) that appreciate you keeping shit straight.

I also wanted to let you know, that I did MOST DEFINITELY use the wonderful stuff you posted in page two of this thread, giving you the credit of course. So thank you for that. And +REP!. I didn't use it in that particular thread, because I'm trying to keep that one organized as specifically philosophical; I used it in the other "Ron Paul FTW!" thread I started on her wall. God, I'm friggin' relentless. :D

How amazing that myself (a minarchist) and you (an anrcho-syndicalist), two philosophies with not a whole hell of a lot in common, can work together towards the same goals. That is what liberty does. It brings people together. Much love.
 
I don't believe antagonizing a particular group of people is a good way to promote Ron Paul.

Rather, if you want to do Ron Paul's campaign justice, you should educate them about Paul so that they vote for him instead of Obama.

People become communist not because they have have an obsession with red, hate the rich, or fap to Karl Marx, but because they see it as a solution!

Speaking as a socialist myself, I support Ron Paul BECAUSE he has a plan combat corporate corruption, and end our growing class division, and rising costs.

You need to APPEAL to communists that, though his means of social justice is different, his ultimate objective is what they want!

Interesting. Thanks.

It still amazes me how this movement so pulls people together from across the political spectrum. It is so very cool. :) Ron Paul is right. Freedom brings us together.
 
Call it whatever, but normal people in their core still want the same principle - Justice. I'm trying to say that we SHOULD be convincing them to vote Ron Paul because his movement IS what they want, even if his means of doing so isn't what they are familiar with!

Doesn't just the mere fact I'm on a Ron Paul forum and donating to him mean something? There are people on the far left who understand what Ron Paul is trying to do, and that message needs to be spread to people who are skeptical of him!

I think I understand what you are saying. You aren't talking about the elite at the top. You are talking about the regular people who just want a decent life. We just differ with these people massively on how to best achieve that.
 
You can learn about macroeconomics from macroeconomics classes in college. If you can't go just get a pdf or check out a book on intro and intermediate macroeconomics, every book is the same. Also, read economics blogs (like the Paul Krugman new york times blog). You can also learn about why austrian economics are shit from the internet.

Yes, if you want to learn more about Keynesian economics, those are good resources. However, Dr. Paul and most people here are advocates of Austrian economics.

Keynesian economics played a large part in getting us into this economic mess we are now in.
 
Well, the title of the thread actually made it sound like Ron had somehow actually won the nomination, even though he hasn't won a single state. I'm not trying to make anyone mad here, but are we not allowed to be realistic and objective when we post here? It just seems like people here don't really accept reality. There's never been a Republican who's won the GOP nomination without winning one of the early states. Intrade has Romney at an 88% chance of winning the nomination with Ron at a 3% chance. I'm all in favor of Ron staying in the race so that he can try to spread his message and influence the Republican Party, but that's all that can possibly happen at this point.

I am a huge fan of reality which I feel many on here lack a firm grasp on. You are correct in saying that no one has ever one the nomination without winning an early state. To be more specific, no one has one the nomination since 1976, without winning either IA or NH. So using that fact, we would have to say that either Mitt or Santorum will be the nominee. However, the rule changes that have set this to up to be an extended primary/caucus season have never been in place before, so it is conceivable that any of the remaining four could still win the nomination. I would say that Paul still has an outside chance of inserting himself in this race as a winner, but the time for that is running out quickly and it needs to be done in February, and it needs to be more than one state in order to change the narrative of the race.

As far as the brokered convention premise that acptulsa speaks of, I do not find that to be plausible. It would require two candidates other than Paul to remain in the race post Super Tuesday (which I don't believe will happen), or it will require Paul to go head to head with one remaining candidate and split up the remaining delegates with neither gaining a majority. Again, I see neither being plausible. The "stealth delegates" concept would require the assumption that Romney is not aware of this possibility and he himself has few people on ballots signed up to be delegates. His organization is as good or better than ours, so I don't believe this to be possible.

Realistically, I see one of two things happening. Either Romney dominates the month of February, and the remaining contests are merely the voters confirming the choice of him as the nominee, with Paul hanging around as long as he is financially able. Or, Paul finally breaks through and we go into the month of March with a new contest, i.e. Romney v Paul.
 
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I am a huge fan of reality which I feel many on here lack a firm grasp on. You are correct in saying that no one has ever one the nomination without winning an early state. To be more specific, no one has one the nomination since 1976, without winning either IA or NH. So using that fact, we would have to say that either Mitt or Santorum will be the nominee. However, the rule changes that have set this to up to be an extended primary/caucus season have never been in place before, so it is conceivable that any of the remaining four could still win the nomination. I would say that Paul still has an outside chance of inserting himself in this race as a winner, but the time for that is running out quickly and it needs to be done in February, and it needs to be more than one state in order to change the narrative of the race.

As far as the brokered convention premise that acptulsa speaks of, I do not find that to be plausible. It would require two candidates other than Paul to remain in the race post Super Tuesday (which I don't believe will happen), or it will require Paul to go head to head with one remaining candidate and split up the remaining delegates with neither gaining a majority. Again, I see neither being plausible. The "stealth delegates" concept would require the assumption that Romney is not aware of this possibility and he himself has few people on ballots signed up to be delegates. His organization is as good or better than ours, so I don't believe this to be possible.

Realistically, I see one of two things happening. Either Romney dominates the month of February, and the remaining contests are merely the voters confirming the choice of him as the nominee, with Paul hanging around as long as he is financially able. Or, Paul finally breaks through and we go into the month of March with a new contest, i.e. Romney v Paul.

That is at least a more realistic analysis. Thanks.
 
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