What is RP's argument that Income is not Federally Taxable

(a) General rule
Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, when a return of tax is required under this title or regulations...,

That is the statute. It was written by the Congres of the United States. And it requires a tax return. Where's my $300,000?

You're not there yet. Where is the part of the code that tells us "when a return of tax is required under this title?"

Not that I want to debate this, and not that I believe either side of the argument. I've looked at it enough to decide that I personally am not going to risk incarceration or death to stand up to the IRS over this. I say we elect Dr. Paul and render the question moot.
 
You're not there yet. Where is the part of the code that tells us "when a return of tax is required under this title?"
It's Title 26 of the U.S. Code. Look it up, I am not a librarian. Be beware, it's BIG. I have already posted two links on the subject, one of which is the law itself. Please go use those links. Don't argue with me, argue the tax law professor. Who, by the way, is not in jail for tax evasion. The same cannot be said of many "experts" in the tax conspiracy movement.
 
conflict 'o interest

Don't argue with me, argue the tax law professor. Who, by the way, is not in jail for tax evasion.

You mean the professor whose tenure is funded in part with.... tax dollars?

I'm sure he's "fair and balanced"
 
You mean the professor whose tenure is funded in part with.... tax dollars?

I'm sure he's "fair and balanced"
Oh come on! As if all the tax protest authors aren't making money off their books...

I'm not here to argue, I'm here to try to balance this out with a tiny bit of the truth. I've given you links, including links the actual law that everyone says doesn't exist. Use those links as starting points to find out the rest of the information. As the Truthers are so ironically fond of saying, go inform yourself. My job here is done.
 
Oh come on! As if all the tax protest authors aren't making money off their books...

I'm not here to argue, I'm here to try to balance this out with a tiny bit of the truth. I've given you links, including links the actual law that everyone says doesn't exist. Use those links as starting points to find out the rest of the information. As the Truthers are so ironically fond of saying, go inform yourself. My job here is done.

You have to admit that it is pretty interesting that an individual, not Congress, created the Internal Revenue Service.
 
Jonathan R. Siegel

The Sixteenth Amendment WAS ratified, by more states than was required.
... how is it you are so certain?
... the Supreme Court ruled that it gave congress "no new powers of taxation"...
... what newer case law is applicable to this debate?
... Otto Skinner has some interesting info

Congress DID implement a tax code, it's Title 26 USC.
But that is not an end to this debate, as the question of the Constitution and taxes supercedes any huge code. Is the code applicable under the constitution? Who exactly is a taxpayer and who is not? What exactly is income? Is the income tax voluntary? Why won't the IRS answer thousands of letters from citizens demanding they show the specific law requiring ordinary workers to pay an income tax? Why do they evade questions? What are they hiding? Why does the IRS use bully tactics and intimidation if they have sound legal basis? A lot of things don't add up.

An unconstitutional act is not a law; it confers no rights; it imposes no duties. It
is, in legal contemplation, as inoperative as though it had never been passed.” And
that applies to any governmental action outside of the Constitution.

Norton v. Shelby County, 1886


I'm getting my tax education from a tax law professor.
http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/jsiegel/Personal/taxes/IncomeTax.htm

Let's look at Jonathan R. Siegel:
• worked for IBM on Chart software
• worked at the Justice Department
• now a professor at GWU

... I somehow doubt this guy is the last word on this subject, but I will consume all info on this subject from many varied sources and seek only the truth no matter how shocking or unsettling ( or euphoric, in the case of shrinking the federal budget 60% overnight! ).
 
thinking, yes...

Why are you so determined to disbelieve it?

Because everything else the government tells me is a pack of lies, why should this be any different? And because anytime you can observe a cover-up, you can typically dig a little and find a lie, scandal, crime, etc etc etc etc ...

I am thinking, so you at least got that part right!
 
... the Supreme Court ruled that it gave congress "no new powers of taxation"...

How 'bout we put that "quote" into a little context...

But, aside from the obvious error of the proposition, intrinsically considered, it manifestly disregards the fact that by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed. - Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co., 240 U.S. 103​



So... what do we know?

1) Congress already had the power to tax incomes. (the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning)

2) There were limitations placed on the taxes Congress could lay: the taxes, if indirect, had to be uniform; if direct, the taxes had to be apportioned amongst the states. (from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment)

3) Congress could never be sure how the courts would rule on any income tax because some income taxes would be viewed as direct, some as indirect. (by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed)

Therefore, Congress passed the 16th so that, in respect to income taxes considered to be direct taxes, or which might have been considered direct taxes at some future point, the requirement to apportion the tax amongst the states would no longer apply, and thus would the income tax not be held unconstitutional via those "origin and source [deductions]."

You guys seriously need to not believe everything you read. Acknowledge it, yes, but don't just take their word for it. :rolleyes:
 
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I did a google search and found that the 16th Amendment gave them the right to collect income taxes.

This is correct.


Government agents do not have any right that you and I don't have. Since extortion is illegal under common law, I would call it a license. The "authority" they have depends on two things: 1) the barrel of a gun 2) government-educated sheep with dulled survival instincts who have been brainwashed largely through patriotic propaganda that their personal financial affairs are any of government agents' business (and that "governments" and other ficticious entities have "rights").
 
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Just to save me some time, I copied this from a rant I had on another site, but I think it is pretty relevant to this issue.

"The colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters, had it not been that England took away from the colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. The inability of the colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George III and the International Bankers was the Prime reason for the Revolutionary War." -- Benjamin Franklin​

Source? The language of this quote doesn't even sound like 18th century English. Who in the 1700s would use the term "international bankers?"

Here's wikiquote's take on it: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin#Disputed

Seems like it dates back to a Canadian from 1913.

Woodrow Wilson, the acting President at the time even regretted his mistake:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -- Woodrow Wilson​

Manufactured quote.

Wilson never made that statement, but instead said things in a book that were used to construct that statement. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson#Misattributed

The source book is available online for all to read. The link is at wiki.

"I think if you were to go back and try to find and review the ratification of the 16th Amendment, which was the internal revenue, Income Tax, I think if you went back and examined that carefully, you would find that a sufficient number of states never ratified that amendment." -- Federal Judge James C. Fox (page 23)​

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/m...11998400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rs&pagewanted=all
Quote from the NYT piece:

To buttress the claim that the 16th Amendment is invalid, the film displays a quotation from a federal district judge, James C. Fox. But the transcript from which the judge’s words were taken shows that while he spoke those words, they were in the context of laying out issues and that the conclusion he reached was the opposite of the words quoted.

Judge Fox, the transcript shows, concluded that no court would accept any argument that the 16th Amendment was not properly ratified and therefore invalid.

"The Supreme Court, in a decision written by Chief Justice White, first noted that the Sixteenth Amendment did not authorize any new type of tax, nor did it repeal or revoke the tax clauses of Article I of the Constitution... Direct taxes were, notwithstanding the advent of the Sixteenth Amendment, still subject to the rule of apportionment and indirect taxes were still subject to the rule of uniformity." -- 1980 Congressional Research Report​

If you want to use Brushaber for support let's use the actual words of the decision (link). What did Cheif Justice White say?:

That the authority conferred upon Congress by 8 of article 1 'to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises' is exhaustive and embraces every conceivable power of taxation has never been questioned, or, if it has, has been so often authoritatively declared as to render it necessary only to state the doctrine. And it has also never been questioned from the foundation, without stopping presently to determine under which of the separate headings the power was properly to be classed, that there was authority given, as the part was included in the whole, to lay and collect income taxes.

This is the text of the Amendment:

'The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.'
It is clear on the face of this text that it does not purport to confer power to levy income taxes in a generic sense,-an authority already possessed and never questioned,-or to limit and distinguish between one kind of income taxes and another, but that the whole purpose of the Amendment was to relieve all income taxes when imposed from apportionment from a consideration of the source whence the income was derived.

What he's saying is that the Congress has always had the power to tax incomes (that may legitimately be disputed), but that the purpose of Amendment XVI was simply to remove the apportionment clause, and so solve the problem of the Pollock case. Stop citing Brushaber as if it supports your conclusions, it doesn't. It also concludes that the newer Amendment is not a violation of Amendment V's "takings clause." I saw you do this in the Yahoo! Answers thing earlier this week: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070623012346AASt9BR&show=7 You're not making your case any better by repeating things that don't support you.

This is also backed up by Supreme Court case: Stanton v. Baltic, "...the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation..."

Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co. (link) merely affirmed the Brushaber case decided one month earlier. Here's a quote in context:

But, aside from the obvious error of the proposition, intrinsically considered, it manifestly disregards the fact that by the previous ruling it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation, but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of indirect taxation to which it inherently belonged, and being placed in the category of direct taxation subject to apportionment by a consideration of the sources from which the income was derived,-that is, by testing the tax not by what it was, a tax on income, but by a mistaken theory deduced from the origin or source of the income taxed.

I think it is pretty obvious where the law is. Which is exactly what Ed and Elaine Brown stated, "Show us the law and we will pay!".

A stupid argument on behalf of the Browns. The law is clear for anyone willing to look it up. It's not an article of faith, it's there for the reading, like all of the other laws on the books.

What they should be saying instead of their stupid argument is that even though there is a law requiring people to pay income taxes, it is immoral because it represents the government initiating force against the citizens and we won't follow an immoral law.

And here is the law: Title 26, Subtitle A, Chapter 1, Subchapter A, Part I.

Inside Part I we find first: that a tax is imposed. And if you're unsure of the definitions of certain words like, "surviving spouse", or "head of household", the second part of Part I tells us what they mean.
 
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Government agents do not have any right that you and I don't have. Since extortion is illegal under common law, I would call it a license. The "authority" they have depends on two things: 1) the barrel of a gun 2) government-educated sheep with dulled survival instincts who have been brainwashed largely through patriotic propaganda that their personal financial affairs are any of government agents' business (and that "governments" and other ficticious entities have "rights").

The argument should be that the individuals who call themselves the government have no more natural rights than any other individuals. This would be correct. People tend not to use the term "right" in its original sense anymore, so instead of correcting BLS and giving a lecture on the difference between "rights", "privileges", "powers", "authority", and "soverignty" I'm simply going to go to his level and do it quickly.

Under the philosophy of the Declaration of Independece governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. Note the modifier on powers there, "just." That puts government actions in a whole new light. I don't consider any taxation just, I consider it all theft. But I'm not going to fall for a fallacious legal argument, based on spurious facts and neither should anyone else.

I'll argue against any and all taxes on the basis of morality, not technicalities.
 
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