What is RP's argument that Income is not Federally Taxable

[1776jedi]

Have you been to Ron Paul's site to see his "Issues" section?

Yes I have, but while he does not state this on his issues page I have also heard actual words come from his mouth to the effect that he wants to do away with the IRS and individual income tax. Look here and you can hear these words too.

<AHREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZl6202HJGQ">

<AHREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI5lC4Z_T80">

There is more to Dr. Paul's platform than his Issues page.

My previous post was a rhetorical/sarcastic question in response to another post stating that (and I'm paraphrasing here)"Paul supporters should refrain from taking fringe positions to prevent undue harm to his campaign."

 

[ecliptic]

Good Work

I want to say "Good Work" to Trevorjustco, foofighter20x, acstichter, and Brandybuck.

Good links:

http://warriorvisions.blogspot.com/2006/11/aaron-russos-america-freedom-to-fascism.html
(Debunking most of Aaron Russo's movie)

http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html
(Debunking just about all of the tax protestor arguments)

I would also like to say "Good Work" and thanks for a new round of info to absorb and digest. I'll continue studying this subject - perhaps a moral / philosophical basis for fighting the income tax is better than "technicality arguments". Makes good sense. Aaron Russo should answer these issues - let's invite him to this thread?
Has he been 'called out" on his forum? Is there another good forum working on this debate? Please check out Douglas Gnazzo's Honest Money - more about fiat currency and the Fed but relevant to this debate nevertheless.

Irvin Schiff info was used in "America Freedom to Fascism" though Otto Skinner seriously questions most of his info. What do you think of Otto's information?

What about the fact that the IRS won't answer questions about the specific code requiring us to pay income tax? Why not? It would appear that you can answer this question - why is the IRS so deceptive and unwilling to cooperate with Tax Freedom people? What are they so afraid of? Why do they resort to intimidation if they can simply apply the law?

 

[johngr]

The argument should be that the individuals who call themselves the government have no more natural rights than any other individuals. This would be correct. People tend not to use the term "right" in its original sense anymore, so instead of correcting BLS and giving a lecture on the difference between "rights", "privileges", "powers", "authority", and "soverignty" I'm simply going to go to his level and do it quickly.

I gathered that. I just think it's important to distinguish there. The idea or implication that gov't agents have rights that no one else has particularly pernicious, imo.

Under the philosophy of the Declaration of Independece governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. Note the modifier on powers there, "just." That puts government actions in a whole new light.

"Government" is an abstraction that I argue has no real, objective existence. I call men (and women) who have guns and badges and those they take orders from government agents (only because they consider themselves part of a fiction called government). Regarding consent, I never consented to be "governed" (nor will I). I never gave anyone power of attorney to consent in my stead. None of my ancestors consented either. Though their inaction could be construed as consent, I disagree that their tacit consent or anything else binds me to the contract.

 

[ecliptic]

Sovereign individual

... Regarding consent, I never consented to be "governed" (nor will I). I never gave anyone power of attorney to consent in my stead. None of my ancestors consented either. Though their inaction could be construed as consent, I disagree that their tacit consent or anything else binds me to the contract.

Amen.

Similarly, is it not true that we did not consent to having a Social Security Number and we can rescind this number retroactively to birth? I never wanted a number, I don't know about you... { Big Brother can take a hike - We the People are mad as hell and not going to take it anymore }

> watch "V for Vendetta" <

a simple plan for minor rebellion v0.6

Rescind your SSN, close all accounts linked to computer databases, reject all government "licenses" of any kind, reject fiat currency in favor of gold and silver- backed currency { both paper and online }, embrace local independent business, reject the intrusive Federal Postal system, reject all federal tyranny, reject steps towards world government, and take other privacy measures now necessary with the introduction of programs like Information Awareness Office !

 

[Lauxa]

I didn't read the whole thread, but personally I think the point is that whether income tax is legal or not, Ron Paul will get rid of it if elected. People will shake their heads when you explain to them the reasons you should not have to pay taxes under the current system -- there is too much precedent, and the IRS has too much clout. But who wouldn't like to keep 30% more money out of every paycheck? And avoid the hassle of all that paperwork every year with all their constantly-changing tax codes?

BTW, here's an interesting article I found:
http://ronpaulforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=40334

 

[aravoth]

It sweet how some people can run to a web page, extrapilate part of a phrase, and use it to suit thier needs.

Ron Paul never said it was illegal, period.

In my opinion? I think it's immoral, I think it's illegal. And not becuase of Aarron Russo.

And no, there was no power to lay an uapportioned direct tax on the income of americans citizens before the 16th amendment. Before the 16th amendment, your income could be taxed, but only if it was apportioned, which it is not. Then you say "OH buuutttt, loookey! It says here that they can weee!" And you would be right, if we are all resident aliens.

There are far more court cases than Stanton VS. Baltic mining out there.

And for the last @#$ing time. The Tax Code IS NOT THE LAW. It's the governing document for the collection of income taxes, which would be worth less than the toilet paper I just flushed down the toilet if the 16th amendment granted no new powers of taxation.

You know who you should write to? Joe Banister. He's a decorated IRS feild Agent that investigated the IRS, found they where breaking the law, quit, stopped paying his taxes, got audited, went to court, and won. And yes, there are many, many more like him.

I don't give a rats ass how many "debunk russo's movie" sites are out there. Take your intuitive debunking god-like prowess and use it to look into the 16th amendment, ALL the court cases, the IRS agents that left becuase of it. Don't just post a one-liner you found on wiki.