What gives paper money its actual value - lol

What is the average middle class hourly wage now compared to 50 years ago?

There is average, there is median, there is standard deviation, and many other things. I asked starting with minimum wage.

So these are not microsplitting, it's actually looking at context instead of narrowing on dollars.

Why can't I compare cost of cellphones in 1967 vs 2014? Why should i use objects YOU picked?

"Yeah, how easy is it to make that dollar if you are unemployed and can't find work. "

Yes, let's play that game. More people are employed today than 1967. More people are unemployed than 1967. How can they BOTH be true!?
 
Apparently PRB wouldn't mind his great grandfather leaving his 450$ per year salary to him in cash, instead of silver or gold coins. Because the dollar hasn't lost any value.

Humans assign value to things that had to be worked for. Gold and silver have been money/valuable for 5000 years because it is understood that someone, at some point, had to dig it up. It represents work. The harder something is to obtain the more value it has to us. Dirt is easy to obtain. Stupid is easy to obtain.

The only reason the United States Dollar is valuable is because it used to be linked to something of value; Gold and silver. This gave it the reserve currency, which it has abused. The rest of the world can print paper too. They can say a piece of paper with 100 on it is greater than the same piece of paper with 10 on it, just as well as the United States.

Russia and China will stop funding our wars and welfare state sooner rather than later. The dollar will be destroyed. The dollar unlike gold is very very very easy to obtain for the FEDS. They just print it. They just borrow it. Why would the rest of the world continue to consider something that is infinite, valuable?

Comparing random statistics about farmers and how much they worked doesn't help the matter. It's pretty obvious that I woul have liked my grandfather to leave me gold coins instead of dollar bills. I don't care how many hours it took for him to make it. What you slaves should care about is the fact that your great grandfathers worked alot, and if they saved that work in paper money it was all taken from them over time by the government and federal reserve.
 
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Apparently PRB wouldn't mind his great grandfather leaving his 450$ per year salary to him in cash, instead of silver or gold coins. Because the dollar hasn't lost any value.

I prefer he get a note that says "One year's salary", so I get it in today's dollars, because apparently salaries have no risen.

Humans assign value to things that had to be worked for. Gold and silver have been money/valuable for 5000 years because it is understood that someone, at some point, had to dig it up.

Let's do everything like we did 5000 years ago.

It represents work. The harder something is to obtain the more value it has to us. Dirt is easy to obtain. Stupid is easy to obtain.

I seriously hope you were not going for labor theory of value. Hard work does not equal value, it may be a justification for why something, if all else is equal, more valuable, but wasting time and labor on something does not mean somebody owes you a meal unless you've provided value.

The only reason the United States Dollar is valuable is because it used to be linked to something of value; Gold and silver.

LMAO. So we could've just sat on our asses in a small island like Hawaii with our pots of gold, no jobs, no oil, no agiculture, and we'd have a wealthy nation?

Sorry, you can't just ignore the fact that we are a country build on production, immigration, mining, land, resources, war and many other things. Attributing it all to gold and silver is laughable, and would mean countires without it are at an automatic disadvantage.

This gave it the reserve currency, which it has abused. The rest of the world can print paper too. They can say a piece of paper with 100 on it is greater than the same piece of paper with 10 on it, just as well as the United States.

Why bother? they'll just say gold is worthless. You can't force anybody to accept gold or diamonds.

Russia and China will stop funding our wars and welfare state sooner rather than later. The dollar will be destroyed.

Why is this kind of alarmism not laughed at as failed prophecies?

Comparing random statistics about farmers and how much they worked doesn't help the matter. It's pretty obvious that I woul have liked my grandfather to leave me gold coins instead of dollar bills. I don't care how many hours it took for him to make it. What you slaves should care about is the fact that your great grandfathers worked alot, and if they saved that work in paper money it was all taken from them over time by the government and federal reserve.

If I can concede that the dollar bill itself buys less, can you concede it doesn't mean value is harder to earn, gold is tougher to buy, gasoline is harder to earn?

If my grandfather made $450 a year, that could only buy 1 car a year.
I make $45,000 a year, but i can buy 2 cars today (better cars too). I worked less hours than him, I should add.

Sure, the dollar buys less, but the only losers are people who saved money with the assumption that it won't lose value. Everybody else may be fine. I'm not against saving money, but you can't expect it to never lose value (such is true of anything).
 
There is average, there is median, there is standard deviation, and many other things. I asked starting with minimum wage.

And there also an infinite number of other irrelevancies including those. Which minimum wage would you like?

So these are not microsplitting, it's actually looking at context instead of narrowing on dollars.

Screw meaningless non relevant context that's not even the question. Who cares? Narrow on the ON TOPIC dollars (or not) if you can.

Why can't I compare cost of cellphones in 1967 vs 2014? Why should i use objects YOU picked?

Go ahead, but the 1967 numbers existing make them pretty meaningless. Why not unless they make my point and prove my case?

"Yeah, how easy is it to make that dollar if you are unemployed and can't find work. "

Not very.

Yes, let's play that game. More people are employed today than 1967. More people are unemployed than 1967. How can they BOTH be true!?

OK, I'll play. 1967 US population ~198 million, 2014 US population ~317 million, so I'll SWAG more people to work AND more to be unemployed among some other possible reasons.


Not so tough. You got any more time wasting duck and dodge diversions you'd care try out?
 
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PRB, it is a historical reality that (1) the purchasing power of the currency is depreciating with time, and (2) "people can buy more using the same labor" today as compared to the past. Does this imply there to be no adverse effects of a depreciating currency? No, it does not. Your analysis is, for lack of a better description, one dimensional (i.e. limited in scope, overly simplistic, and biased).

If this is the only dynamic that concerns you (i.e. that individuals can, on average, trade their labor to achieve a standard of living as high as or marginally higher than, say, their parents), then I will save us some time and state unequivocally that this has been observed in the U.S. and many other countries over the last several generations. I have never suggested otherwise. Of course, this does not imply that it can continue. However, it could continue even in the face of a depreciating currency. Now, that said, if you wish to continue a discussion, then I suggest we move beyond this trivial observation to discuss how the cause of a depreciating currency is destructive on net balance.
 
PRB, it is a historical reality that (1) the purchasing power of the currency is depreciating with time, and (2) "people can buy more using the same labor" today as compared to the past. Does this imply there to be no adverse effects of a depreciating currency? No, it does not. Your analysis is, for lack of a better description, one dimensional (i.e. limited in scope, overly simplistic, and biased).

I would almost agree with you completely, except I believe my analysis is far from one dimensional. Limited scope maybe, but I was precisely trying to avoid looking at one factor only.

If people can buy more using the same labor, then currency unit depreciation is pointless. Are there no adverse effects of deflation or inflation? No, but the ultimate measure of whether a person can buy more using the same labor, I believe, makes currency depreciation or appreciation effects, quiet small or irrelevant.

If this is the only dynamic that concerns you (i.e. that individuals can, on average, trade their labor to achieve a standard of living as high as or marginally higher than, say, their parents), then I will save us some time and state unequivocally that this has been observed in the U.S. and many other countries over the last several generations. I have never suggested otherwise. Of course, this does not imply that it can continue.

Awesome.

I can turn it around and ask you, IF it's been established that people can work the same and buy more, or work less and buy more, why SHOULD we care about currency depreciation?

Put simply? I'll guarantee you that the dollar today will buy only 10% of what you can get 10 years from now, BUT, I will also guarantee that you will be paid double every year, while consumer prices do not exceed the 1:10 ratio as mentioned before.

The only reason you'd care, is if you expected currency to never depreciate, and as such, saved money in money.

However, it could continue even in the face of a depreciating currency. Now, that said, if you wish to continue a discussion, then I suggest we move beyond this trivial observation to discuss how the cause of a depreciating currency is destructive on net balance.

I disagree that depreciating currency is per se destructive. It's only destructive if labor compensation and other things do not change in response.

I don't care if a dollar today will buy only half of what I can buy tomorrow, as long as I can get paid 10x more tomorrow.
 
I'll make it easy for you. Don't use 100.

Do this for me

1. Cost per square feet of house
2. Price of gasoline
3. Price of bottled water
4. Price of portable radio
5. Price of portable phone service
6. Price of a personal computer (lowest)
7. Price of a car
8. Minimum wage
9. Cost of electricity per KWH

That would be a better indication of whether dollar has lost purchasing power, or more importantly, whether people can buy more using the same labor.

Unfortunately, this does not take into account financial, material, and technological advances.

There used to be a time cars were hand made, hand painted, now they are not. And this is a durable good.
Soft goods, such as radios, should always becoming more affordable to more peoples.
Plaster lath walls are for more time consuming and labor intensive than sheet rocked walls.
 
If you plot the value of a CPI like basket in terms of dollars, gold, stocks, silver etc the free market would chose dollars as money. This is because dollars have the most predictable short to semi-long term future value. This makes lending and borrowing both cheaper by reducing risk for both parties and lending is one of the most important functions of money in healthy free markets. People get caught up in the dollar losing 98% of its value since 1900 but a new form of money worth exactly the same now as in 1900 but that fluctuates an average of +-20% a year would have been awful, awful money.
 
If you plot the value of a CPI like basket in terms of dollars, gold, stocks, silver etc the free market would chose dollars as money. This is because dollars have the most predictable short to semi-long term future value. This makes lending and borrowing both cheaper by reducing risk for both parties and lending is one of the most important functions of money in healthy free markets. People get caught up in the dollar losing 98% of its value since 1900 but a new form of money worth exactly the same now as in 1900 but that fluctuates an average of +-20% a year would have been awful, awful money.
"The free market would chose (sic) dollars as money"

Which is why we need laws to ensure that effect.


And in any case, what should I care what you find valuable? The kinds of odd and off-putting things people treasure means little to me. You are fond of paper. That is just fine by me. But why can I not be paid in gold? Is that not fine by you? Is your confidence in people's choosing printed currency that low that laws must be enacted to discourage a different result?
 
"The free market would chose (sic) dollars as money"

Which is why we need laws to ensure that effect.
No, the laws are required to make the chart of CPI versus dollars look like that.

And in any case, what should I care what you find valuable? The kinds of odd and off-putting things people treasure means little to me. You are fond of paper. That is just fine by me. But why can I not be paid in gold? Is that not fine by you? Is your confidence in people's choosing printed currency that low that laws must be enacted to discourage a different result?

None of this has any relevance to my post. I never made any claims that you should care about what I find valuable. I never said I am fond of paper. I never mentioned anything about what you are paid in, which I don't care about at all. I made a simple point about something I think money needs to do that you did not address at all.
 
"The free market would chose (sic) dollars as money"

Which is why we need laws to ensure that effect.


And in any case, what should I care what you find valuable?


you tell me!

I'm not the one who says gold is valuable.
 
No, the laws are required to make the chart of CPI versus dollars look like that.

None of this has any relevance to my post. I never made any claims that you should care about what I find valuable. I never said I am fond of paper. I never mentioned anything about what you are paid in, which I don't care about at all. I made a simple point about something I think money needs to do that you did not address at all.
It could be because in 10,000 posts I might have addressed this topic in some, say, hundred pages or so. Anymore I'm tired of repeating rebuttals to the same tired sophist arguments, masked authoritarian inclinations, and collectivized socialist rhetoric. Not that all apply to you, but certainly all apply to the few here who argue so fallaciously as to become increasingly annoying (and as my BAC rises, my tolerance for propagandist slant becomes lower).

Let's start with the claim that the dollar is predictable in its course. If what you meant by that is predictable in its debased course, then I suppose you have quite the strong argument. If what you meant is that it is predictable in its course and as such is particularly valuable as a currency, at least with regards to that single characteristic, I'd say you were, misguided.

Why is the dollar predictable and how is inflation managed? The latter portion of that question being more pertinent than the former. Inflation is kept under head by the policy of exporting by and large worthless dollars for goods. There is a policy of recycling in which countries are afforded aid in the form of cheap credit or foreign aid (with strings attached, obviously) and the understanding that the 'money' will come back to corporations here. Saudi Arabia is afforded loans for energy substations. American companies are awarded no bid contracts to build and protect them. The price of the dollar is not rightly felt. Aside from the dollars coming back home they often are circulated throughout a larger globalized economy. If the price per dollar was to be felt solely by Americans, they would not be able to keep up whatsoever. It also would not be "predictable" as the more drastic steps they took in their failed social planning experiment, the more volatile the dollar would become. People would lose trust quite quickly and even with the entirety of their hegemonic, imperialist kingdom of socialist schemes and propaganda, it would come crashing down rather quickly.

There are folks who are aware of the situation who are not too keen on the continual acceptance of printed dollars for goods. There are people annoyed with the United States' heavy handed policies (and to be clear, it must be that way with this immoral, debt based, empire... it would fall apart else wise). It cannot go on forever.

I wonder how predictable the people who lost their homes and fortune thought the dollar to be?

In any case, I apologize for being off topic. Welcome to the forums.
 
Let's start with the claim that the dollar is predictable in its course. If what you meant by that is predictable in its debased course, then I suppose you have quite the strong argument. If what you meant is that it is predictable in its course and as such is particularly valuable as a currency, at least with regards to that single characteristic, I'd say you were, misguided.
I just said that anything with predictability, regardless of debasement, would be more desirable as money than other things that are very unpredictable on month, year, decade time frames. I think it is a prerequisite for good money in any sort of recognizable free market system and way more important than how much we can buy if we have 100% of our savings in cash and take a 100 year nap.

In any case, I apologize for being off topic. Welcome to the forums.

Thanks....I don't mind off topic, I just wanted to clarify my only point, which is above.
 
If people can buy more using the same labor, then currency unit depreciation is pointless. Are there no adverse effects of deflation or inflation? No, but the ultimate measure of whether a person can buy more using the same labor, I believe, makes currency depreciation or appreciation effects, quiet small or irrelevant... why SHOULD we care about currency depreciation?...I'll guarantee you that the dollar today will buy only 10% of what you can get 10 years from now, BUT, I will also guarantee that you will be paid double every year, while consumer prices do not exceed the 1:10 ratio as mentioned before.

I consider these several statements of yours to be essentially the same. Therefore, I address them here.

The purpose of economics should not be to ensure future generations an increasing compensation for their labor. Rather, the purpose of economics should be to identify the principles necessary to optimize the allocation of scarce resources toward the creation of value. The key word I wish to emphasize is “optimize”. Providing for a marginal increase in the compensation for labor such as we’ve seen over the last several decades, an increasing and accelerating wealth disparity, and escalating upheavals in the financial and labor markets, is anything but optimal. These effects are caused by the process of malinvestment, itself caused by the expansion of credit beyond the stock of savings – which, incidentally, also causes a depreciating currency. Note that I mentioned before that I see no inherent reason for a manipulated and depreciating currency to make an increasing compensation for labor impossible. However, I do take the position that it is increasingly unlikely as the process continues. Since the effects of malinvestment are cumulative over time, then value creation (on net balance) becomes increasingly difficult and unlikely. The capital structure becomes increasingly unstable and dependent on continual credit infusions of increasing quanitity all derived from credit expansion, and this is unsustainable. Whereas, when credit is derived only from savings (which is underconsumption, by definition), then the lessened demand frees resources for the production (and improvement) of capital goods. We all seem to understand that we can’t have our cake and eat it too. Well, the system in place today does not circumvent this principle. Rather, it introduces a perverse incentive for one to eat their cake, then take someone else’s. In this manner, the system in place fosters both war and the increasing wealth disparity seen in this country and elsewhere.
NOTE: If you do not understand the concept of malinvestment, then please let me know as a proper understanding of this concept is critical to the arguments I’ve made. I’ve found that virtually all so-called “Keynesians” and many so-called “Austrians” do not have a clear understanding.

The only reason you'd care, is if you expected currency to never depreciate, and as such, saved money in money.

The concept of malinvestment must be understood. A sustainable and efficient path toward the creation of value is possible only when credit is derived from savings, where savings is by definition the act of underconsumption or reduced demand (i.e. frugality). This process introduces a natural feedback control system where the availability of credit is a function of savings. When this feedback control is violated with artificial credit expansion, then interest rates are driven to artificially low levels. This introduces an incentive to allocate scarce resources (i.e. capital) toward projects that must finally prove unproductive quite simply because stimulating demand does not create capital. The recent housing debacle was a classic case of this process, and clearly it represented a massive misallocation of resources that should have been better applied in countless other ways. In the end, it is clear to any rational being that a great deal of wealth was destroyed by this process. In particular, it must be understood that the wealth destroyed was precisely the wealth that was prevented from coming into being. The productive process is hobbled by credit expansion, but a depreciating currency is only an effect of this process, and not a cause. Also, the process leads to an increased disparity of wealth. Certain individuals are afforded greater access to an expanding pool of credit (not derived from savings), and these individuals are able to access the wealth of others without their consent. Compounded with the effects of malinvestment, the result is the transfer of wealth from the average person in the form of a lower value of their savings, and a lower compensation for their labor (all else equal) due to wage increases that do not keep pace with price increases. In the end, the average person must work harder, longer, experience more risk and stress, and finally suffer the brunt of the inevitable financial and economic upheavals that result. A growing wealth disparity is the inevitable result.

I disagree that depreciating currency is per se destructive. It's only destructive if labor compensation and other things do not change in response... I don't care if a dollar today will buy only half of what I can buy tomorrow, as long as I can get paid 10x more tomorrow.

See previous discussions. A depreciating currency is not primarily a cause, but a symptom. Credit expansion beyond the stock of savings is the cause of both malinvestment and a depreciating currency. Again, we should not wish to merely increase compensation for labor, but optimize the process - and this means malinvestment must be eliminated. Since the cause of malinvestment is the expansion of credit beyond the stock of savings, then a sound monetary and financial system is necessary to optimize the creation of value.
 
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http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

What goods and services does the CPI include?

The BLS has created more than 200 categories for all goods and services they track. These 200 are placed within eight major groups:

  • Food and Beverages: meat, milk, beer, wine, snacks, etc.
  • Housing: rent of primary residence, owners’ equivalent rent, fuel oil, bedroom furniture, etc.
  • Apparel: cloths like pants, shirts, sweaters, etc.
  • Transportation: vehicles, airline fares, gasoline, etc.
  • Medical Care: hospital services, drugs, medical supplies, glasses, etc.
  • Recreation: TV, pets, movies, pets, etc.
  • Education and Communication: college costs, telephone services, computer software, postage, etc.
  • Other: smoking products, haircuts and other personal services
The CPI does not include savings or investment items, like stocks and bonds or real estate.
For each of the more than 200 categories, the BLS has chosen several hundred specific items to track as sample points in their data.



That is 200 CATEGORIES of items. They check prices of 80,000 ITEMS each month. http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm

Each month, BLS data collectors called economic assistants visit or call thousands of retail stores, service establishments, rental units, and doctors' offices, all over the United States, to obtain information on the prices of the thousands of items used to track and measure price changes in the CPI. These economic assistants record the prices of about 80,000 items each month, representing a scientifically selected sample of the prices paid by consumers for goods and services purchased.

During each call or visit, the economic assistant collects price data on a specific good or service that was precisely defined during an earlier visit. If the selected item is available, the economic assistant records its price. If the selected item is no longer available, or if there have been changes in the quality or quantity (for example, eggs sold in packages of ten when they previously were sold by the dozen) of the good or service since the last time prices were collected, the economic assistant selects a new item or records the quality change in the current item.

Since what people buy changes over time, they also do surveys, along with US Census Data, to measure just what people are actually spending their money on. Each item and each category is given a weighting- based on what percent of money people actually spend on that category. Food for example uses eleven percent of the average household budget so food items are given a weight of eleven percent in the final CPI figure. The "basket of goods" and the respective weightings gets updated at least every ten years. Shadowstats is often cited as an alternative to the government CPI but Shadowstats hasn't updated their basket of goods and is still using the same one the government complied in 1980. Back then there were no computers or cell phones or giant plasma or LCD or LED TVs. Instead we had VCRs and LPs or cassette tapes for music (even CDs were not around yet). Portable music was a Sony Walkman AM/FM cassette player (actually that came out in 1980 so it probably wasn't in the basket either). Cost about $300 when it first came out (adjusting for inflation that is about $900 today!) There are many things people commonly buy today which were not even available back in 1980 you can buy today (and other things which you can no longer get) so the basket of goods has to be adjusted over time.
 
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I consider these several statements of yours to be essentially the same. Therefore, I address them here.

The purpose of economics should not be to ensure future generations an increasing compensation for their labor.

Agreed.

Rather, the purpose of economics should be to identify the principles necessary to optimize the allocation of scarce resources toward the creation of value.

I can't say I agree here, I don't see a good difference between compensating more for the same labor, and optimize allocation of resources for creation of value. Nobody likes to waste, so reducing waste to increase profits is a human nature desire.

The key word I wish to emphasize is “optimize”. Providing for a marginal increase in the compensation for labor such as we’ve seen over the last several decades, an increasing and accelerating wealth disparity, and escalating upheavals in the financial and labor markets, is anything but optimal.

Optimal is subjective, isn't it? Why should the wealthy care about disparity or the rest? Isn't the point of capitalism to care for yourself and yourself only?

These effects are caused by the process of malinvestment, itself caused by the expansion of credit beyond the stock of savings – which, incidentally, also causes a depreciating currency.

Tell that to the people who got richer over the decades. Malinvestment is also subjective, investing to screw people over and make yourself richer is not malinvestment in my book, it's called profiting.

Note that I mentioned before that I see no inherent reason for a manipulated and depreciating currency to make an increasing compensation for labor impossible. However, I do take the position that it is increasingly unlikely as the process continues. Since the effects of malinvestment are cumulative over time, then value creation (on net balance) becomes increasingly difficult and unlikely.

This assumes value creation isn't inherently increasingly difficult. If you get better at efficiency, you create more for less, how do you continue to build value? By making more? What happens when you've saturated the human population with commodities? How much more value can you create when people stop worrying about starving, stop fearing war, stop having diseases, and god forbid, get bored of all the entertainment you can throw at them?

The capital structure becomes increasingly unstable and dependent on continual credit infusions of increasing quanitity all derived from credit expansion, and this is unsustainable.

And luckily it's unsustainable, so there are bubble bursts every few decades, even if it's in limited markets. Morality aside, we seem to know how credit expansion works, so unless you can stop it, why not learn to profit from it?

Whereas, when credit is derived only from savings (which is underconsumption, by definition), then the lessened demand frees resources for the production (and improvement) of capital goods.

Don't you think people ONLY underconsume and save IF they believe money will be scarcer or worth more later? If the opposite were assumed, people buy crap to hoard (oh right, that's precisely what the video said!)

We all seem to understand that we can’t have our cake and eat it too. Well, the system in place today does not circumvent this principle. Rather, it introduces a perverse incentive for one to eat their cake, then take someone else’s. In this manner, the system in place fosters both war and the increasing wealth disparity seen in this country and elsewhere.
NOTE: If you do not understand the concept of malinvestment, then please let me know as a proper understanding of this concept is critical to the arguments I’ve made. I’ve found that virtually all so-called “Keynesians” and many so-called “Austrians” do not have a clear understanding.

I will admit I don't know what you mean by malinvestment.


The concept of malinvestment must be understood. A sustainable and efficient path toward the creation of value is possible only when credit is derived from savings, where savings is by definition the act of underconsumption or reduced demand (i.e. frugality). This process introduces a natural feedback control system where the availability of credit is a function of savings. When this feedback control is violated with artificial credit expansion, then interest rates are driven to artificially low levels. This introduces an incentive to allocate scarce resources (i.e. capital) toward projects that must finally prove unproductive quite simply because stimulating demand does not create capital. The recent housing debacle was a classic case of this process, and clearly it represented a massive misallocation of resources that should have been better applied in countless other ways. In the end, it is clear to any rational being that a great deal of wealth was destroyed by this process. In particular, it must be understood that the wealth destroyed was precisely the wealth that was prevented from coming into being. The productive process is hobbled by credit expansion, but a depreciating currency is only an effect of this process, and not a cause. Also, the process leads to an increased disparity of wealth. Certain individuals are afforded greater access to an expanding pool of credit (not derived from savings), and these individuals are able to access the wealth of others without their consent. Compounded with the effects of malinvestment, the result is the transfer of wealth from the average person in the form of a lower value of their savings, and a lower compensation for their labor (all else equal) due to price increases that do not keep pace with wage increases. In the end, the average person must work harder, longer, experience more risk and stress, and finally suffer the brunt of the inevitable financial and economic upheavals that result. A growing wealth disparity is the inevitable result.

Isn't all this simply derived from the axiom that saving is good and spending is bad?
 
Nice. So the price of men's suits fell 75% between 1980 and 2002 (since the price of gold did). Men's suits should be averaging $1300 today. (assuming that the gold/ men's suit ratio continues to work).


Gold/suit ratio tends to provide an often useful reality checkpoint and benchmark over time. That doesn't make it always an ironclad gospel.
 
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