What do you think of Land Value Tax (LVT)

If every thirsty bum on Earth (and off) has a "right to liberty" which amounts to a right to drink some water, that means every thirsty bum owns that water.
No, that's just more stupid garbage from you.
In other words, I have said something which not only can you not refute, not only can you not interface with the statement in an intelligent way, not only all that, which has been true for almost all your posts throughout this discussion, in this case you do not even have a talking point to regurgitate for it. If I were you, I'd just keep repeating this statement over and over, thinking that its uncontested repetition proves me right somehow; the righter the more it is repeated. Unfortunately you are you, and so we'd just have 20 posts where I repeat my statement and you repeat your Total Destruction of my statement by typing "No, that's just more stupid garbage from you." That would pretty definitely decrease the total number of Utils in the Universe. So I'll skip that.
 
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Come on, Roy, I'm rooting for you! There's a whole lot of new material crying out to be proved wrong now. You gotta come through for me!
I have, of course.

How many more times, and in how many more different ways, must I prove you wrong before you will become willing to consider the possibility that you actually ARE wrong?
 
I have, and he does neither.
He uses it to make money. He controls it because he makes the ultimate decisions for it.

Come on!

A restaurant owner also neither uses nor controls his restaurant's food. His chefs use it to make their dishes, and control it by doing whatever they want with it -- shaping it, combining it, altering it, heating it, moving it about. His customers use it to fill their bellies, and control it by choosing what dishes to order. But the owner's out of the loop. He's just sitting at home having no involvement whatsoever. Right?

Wrong! He uses the food to make money. And he controls it because he makes the ultimate decisions for it.

Ownership means use and control. If you can disprove that, have at. If you have an alternative definition, bring it on out. Until then,
 
"publicly created rent of the land he owns" - now there's a big cannon just loaded with presumptions and a slew of begged questions.
Google "economic rent" and start reading.
Incidentally stow the "rent" and anti-landlord arguments with me. For the sake of our discussion only, my SOLE concern is for the rights of individuals and families who occupy and use land strictly for their own survival, not those who simply have titles to land which they do not occupy, but only sell, lease or otherwise charge rents to others.
And $#!+ on the people who would otherwise be at liberty to use it. Check.
Somehow - and this is logical in your mind - an original homestead is endowed with "publicly created" value, even though no "rent" is charged to anyone, and nobody occupies the dwelling save the original dweller who improved the land. This results in value that the homesteader owes to others by way of circular logic that argues from your initial premise - that everybody has a natural liberty right to occupy and/or use the same land.
There is nothing circular about it. They would otherwise be at liberty to use the land, and the advantages created by government and the community would still be there if the owner and all his works vanished.
To me that is a tax to reward those who simply covet.
<yawn> But that is objectively false. Wanting your liberty back, or just compensation for its removal, is not "coveting."
PUBLICLY CREATED VALUE

While the actual 'value' of my attention might appear to have 'public' appeal, and strictly by virtue of the number of people who desire that attention simultaneously, that can produce the illusion that it was "publicly created". That would be false. It was not created for "the public", nor does "the public", nor any individual member thereof, have any "right" to it - any more than I have a right to anyone else's attention.

An improved piece of land can have the same dynamic associated with it.
No, it can't.
A lone homesteader can go into what is an otherwise unoccupied and barren land, one that NOBODY WANTS, and can make aesthetically pleasing improvements - for himself only. Not to draw a crowd. Not to entice anyone or "rent" the property out to others. In fact, there is no "public" motive whatsoever to it. It is just land for him to live on, occupy and enjoy for himself, and possibly even a family if he has one. It may be a Rembrandt, but it wasn't for sale, and was never intended for public consumption. Artists have that right.

Another man sees the lone beautiful house in the middle of nowhere, and considers it Good. He does not COVET that man's house - which of course would be EVIL. No, this man doesn't want to take possession or control of what someone else has created (NOT the land - only the "privately created value", or improvements). No, this man is not an Evil Coveter of other people's works. He is actually a Good Man. He only admires the example of what has been accomplished. He wants to be near it, and to be associated with that kind of energy that he admires. So he does likewise. He builds a house of his own and makes improvements to his own land - right next to the original house.

Now, the man who built the original house may not 'like' the fact that a new neighbor has gotten so close to him, any more than he wants to be seated next to a crowded table in an otherwise empty restaurant. He also wouldn't choose a urinal next to one man in a bathroom that has thirty empty urinals. Personal bubbles and all that. Why shoulder to shoulder? Why next door? Was there no other place to live?

But...he is also not an Evil Man, so he holds his peace. After a little thought, he makes room in his mind. He fully recognizes that the world is not only his, and must be shared; that even if he preferred to live in isolation, he would never attempt to deny others their equal right to a place of their own in the world.

Well, social gravity being what it is, and complex social beings being what humans are, two beautiful cottages in the middle of nowhere attract enough attention that it soon becomes ten thousand houses in the middle of what is now somewhere. Gravity. Strange attractors. Accretion. Planetary formation.

Now enter His Honor Roy L., the new Mayor of the new town. He goes to the man who built and still lives in the original house - the one that was once in the middle of nowhere - and declares to this man that his house now has Publicly Created Value for which he must now pay RENT to the public. Why? Because many of them now COVET his location...
They "covet" it because there is now a community there, regardless of anything he does or did.
the one that nobody wanted before...a location that he alone improved with no intention to sell...a location not unlike many other locations which still exist as unimproved and otherwise undesired land. But now, because "the public" values this land, he must pay RENT to that public. He must compensate them for their covetousness.
It is not compensation for "covetousness," that is just a lie from you. It is compensation for depriving them of the advantages government, the community and nature provide at that location.
An LVT on Homesteaders is nothing more than Payola To Those Who Covet, as this kind of "Publicly Created Value" is another word for COVETOUSNESS.
Garbage. Wanting your liberty back, or just compensation for its removal, is not "covetousness."
Thou shalt not covet.
Accusing those who oppose injustice of envy for its beneficiaries is one of the most evil acts any human being can commit, because it seeks to undermine all opposition to evil.
 
I don't get it Roy, why exactly are you here? You only post in this thread, nothing of which has to do with getting Ron Paul elected, you obviously don't even believe in one of the most important priciples of the liberty movement, namely the right property (yes that includes owning land) and all you do is insult people who don't buy into your ridiculous notion that land owning is theft. So I repeat, why are you here? This thread has gone on for 99 pages...aren't you bored of owning us and destroying our nonsensical, immoral apologies for evil, greedy land owning parasites?
 
Google "economic rent" and start reading.

And $#!+ on the people who would otherwise be at liberty to use it. Check.

"otherwise at liberty" is your argument in a nutshell, and the genesis of your false dichotomy - your biggest lie - that everyone has a liberty right to occupy the same space as everyone else, given they "would otherwise be at liberty to use"...meaning, "If they did not exist I would have access to their space, wherever it is."

You believe in a right based on a non-existent reality. My right to "otherwise be at liberty to occupy your space" can only end if you cease to exist, because the moment you move, that space becomes exclusively occupied as well. So everyone's "right to otherwise be at liberty" is immediately transferred to any new space you might occupy. No rest for the weary - wherever you go, that space has some measurable value to me, however negligible, that you are taking from me - so pay up, space occupation thief.

When I forcibly remove you out of your spot for non-payment, you will owe me for occupying the new spot I put you in, because my claim to a natural liberty right extends to that space as well. Which makes you an automatic debtor or a thief wherever you go - by virtue of your very existence. I would follow you to the ends of the earth and tax you to death, but what I really want is for you to pay rent for a spot that I consider collectively owned.

And yes - you ARE the ultimate propertarian. Stop lying about that. It is a flagrant tautology regardless how you phrase it.

Gypsies, nomads, vagabonds and other wandering souls would be excepted, I assume, because they are always on the move. Wouldn't it be just peachy keen to you - wouldn't that delight your sensibilities if that's all we were on Earth?

Oh, and you did make an exception for me - if I lived underground - provided nobody knows about it, of course, or moved in next door to me. Somehow association was key. It is only if I occupy space in plain view of others that I would owe anything. That's why it is a simple matter of coveting. Don't lie. And it is also a tax on free association. You cannot cluster together and circle your wagons for any length of time without some idiot calling it a "deprivation", and holding out his nasty, covetous tentacle demanding payment for something he did not improve, and for which he has no right - not even a half-baked "natural liberty right".

This is the ABSOLUTE INSANITY of the world we live in now - multiple claims on the same physical wealth - which you have extended to space itself. That's your lie, your insanity, Roy.

My right to live and to exist requires space that is exclusive to me. It does not become a privilege-by-proxy because someone figured out how to swallow a BIG FAT LIE in the form of a goofy-stupid false dichotomy which says, in effect, "You have a right to live, but not an exclusive right to your own personal, non-moving space."

Since occupation of space can never be anything but exclusive, your very existence becomes a matter of "privilege of exclusive space occupation" (there is no other kind) which can then be taxed. And since the power to tax involves the power to destroy - your very life, which depends upon exclusive space occupation, is subject to being taxed out of existence.

It's funny, because I don't see this right extending to corporations, governments, or other collectives, the existence of which really are both fictitious and highly qualified, and without anything approaching a "right". I don't see property ownership as an untrammeled right, as a matter of survival, to anyone but free and natural persons - and even there I could see it qualified. For example, I don't see amassing enough wealth to claim title to half a country as anyone's individual right. That is a form of sovereignty that extends past one's right to survive, and really does affect the public interest - as it relates to INDIVIDUAL survival - not some abstract collective which I don't believe in.
 
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Roy, might I make a suggestion? Regardless of my position on whether I agree with you or not....your condescending, sarcastic, and snarky remarks are major turn-offs to your larger point(s), regardless of how valid (or not) they are. Because of this, might I recommend not being so insulting?
 
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For the sake of our discussion only, my SOLE concern is for the rights of individuals and families who occupy and use land strictly for their own survival
And $#!+ on the people who would otherwise be at liberty to use it. Check.
We've talked about this a few times already, but this statement of yours just makes the insanity of your position so stark. Those who are using some surface area of the Earth to farm and try to have something to eat, or some branches in a tree to put their treehouse to try to stay warm and dry, those folks are actually mistreating and abusing others in an extremely rude and evil manner by virtue of their doing that. Who are they abusing? Those who would, if they offered it for sale, be willing to buy it.

Now when I would be willing to buy something, it's not because I disapprove of the person who has it now continuing to have it. If it were not for sale, I would not feel deprived or slighted in any way, much less like I was having sewage dumped up me by vindictive evil-doers whose black hearts just couldn't see the Self-Evident Truth that I have just as much right as them to their land. I don't know anyone who would. It's just not rational. It's just not civilized. The other guy's tree house isn't hurting me. The other guy isn't being rude to me by having the tree house. I don't accept that he is "monopolizing" the tree in any correct nor historical sense of the word monopoly. I don't accept that I have a right to his tree. It's just sociopathic to think you are entitled to other men's stuff. Such an attitude prevents you from functioning in society. Perhaps that's why you spend your life posting on the internet about your excuses for your pathology.

Just because someone would be willing to buy it if it were for sale, doesn't mean he has any desire to buy it if it's not for sale. That is your fallacy (another one). He probably is positively unwilling to buy it if it's not for sale! Most people are decent and respectful like that. So your whole idea that a violation of rights is occurring because people would probably buy it if it were for sale, and thus the guy is picking their pocket by not selling it, and besides that even if it were for sale the only correct sale price is zero and anything more than that is picking Humanity's pocket too, this whole idea is based on an inaccuracy. Most people don't feel that people owe it to them to transfer their stuff them-ward, "nature-given" or not (and as I've said, everything is ultimately nature-given). Those who do are sociopaths.

They "covet" it because there is now a community there, regardless of anything he does or did.
Again, actually normal people don't covet it at all, community or not. They have no interest in taking it unless and until the current owner is willing to sell it. So in a way, actually the community being there hasn't given the land any value at all. It's totally valueless, except to its owner and those he permits to use it, and except to sociopaths, until and unless the owner is willing to sell it.

Accusing those who oppose injustice of envy for its beneficiaries is one of the most evil acts any human being can commit, because it seeks to undermine all opposition to evil.
Steven, you just committed one of the greatest evils possible. Rape, move over. Murder, eyh. Torture? Fogetaboutit. If we're going to have crimes, this is one of the grand-daddies. It's even up there above drinking hot coffee in public. Maybe even above smoking in public. Under Roy's Beneficent Utopia, making the post you just made is going to get you fried in the electric chair. Roy will trace your IP address and hunt you down like the foul, sick evil-doer that you are.
 
Roy, might I make a suggestion? Regardless of my position on whether I agree with you or not....your condescending, sarcastic, and snarky remarks are major turn-offs to your larger point(s), regardless of how valid (or not) they are. Because of this, might I recommend being so insulting?
Ha, ha, ha... you need to read the whole thread! Well, OK, no that's not true. I shouldn't wish that on anyone. I don't know what to recommend. But rest assured that I have told him this before. Your advice has been duly filed... in the circular file. :D
 
100!

Oh, and you did make an exception for me - if I lived underground - provided nobody knows about it, of course, or moved in next door to me. Somehow association was key. It is only if I occupy space in plain view of others that I would owe anything. That's why it is a simple matter of coveting. Don't lie. And it is also a tax on free association. You cannot cluster together and circle your wagons for any length of time without some idiot calling it a "deprivation", and holding out his nasty, covetous tentacle demanding payment for something he did not improve, and for which he has no right - not even a half-baked "natural liberty right".
Yes, I think you see what I just started seeing. So you're not violating anyone's rights if no one knows about your cave, because then no one wants it. But is it the knowledge that creates the violation, or the wanting? What if a whole bunch of people know about it, but no one wants it? Still no rights violation -- they don't want it, its value is still zero to them Roy would say. What if the reason they don't want it is because they know you don't want to sell and they respect that?

Blank-out.

The rights-violation argument only works if your people are bent on seizing each other's land. If they really don't want to, their rights are not being violated because the value they're being deprived of is zero, or even negative. It's zero if they're indifferent to the idea of seizure, it's negative if they are actually opposed to seizure, for then they'd consider it to be a positive dis-value for them to seize others' land. Then it would be a violation of their rights and liberty to force them to seize or tax the land of others. It would deprive them of that value they would otherwise be free to enjoy -- self-respect and honor. And as we all know from Roy, depriving people of value which they would otherwise naturally be free to enjoy is really, really evil. The biggest evil of all, even above making Steven Douglas-like posts on the internet. Zap! Electric chair for you Roy for advocating such a thing.
 
The biggest evil of all, even above making Steven Douglas-like posts on the internet.

I don't think it gets more evil than making Steven Douglas-like posts on the internet. Stop lying!

Yeah, it all boils down individual desires, which are then collectivized as a value determinant. One problem though:

You have a community of 101 people, and you have exclusive use of a piece of land. 50 Covetous people step forward and say that they DEARLY want that land, and consider themselves completely and utterly deprived of their natural liberty right to occupy and use that piece that you occupy. The remaining 50 step forward and eschew any desire whatsoever for the land, saying that they would consider it Evil to want to dispossess someone of their exclusive "privilege" of usage and control. By your theory that should nullify everything, as positive and negative forces cancel one another out.

In Roy's world, the 50 who weren't interested in the land become non-existent. Their input does not count as negative, but rather nullified. That leaves the 50 remaining as comprising 100% of the "legitimate" say.

Isn't that great? And if 99 have no beef, Roy is still there as the lone dissenter - and 100% of the votes that count.

Then there is the question of "legitimacy" (Roy seems really big on democracy). We could always just put the matter to a popular vote. In that case, 50 votes are in favor of an LVT on you, and 51 are not, as you become the "legitimate" tie-breaker. But not in Roy's mind. The government is only legitimate when it follows what he views as non-evil, "self-evidently just", blah blah... He has his own criteria for legitimacy, thus bringing you full circle to the fundamental reality of Roy's mind. If all people on Earth voted 99.9999% against an LVT, and 99.9999% in favor of property ownership, he would still consider it evil. Of course, he'll argue that such an hypothetical vote is just silly, as it isn't even possible (and of course it isn't), but that's irrelevant to the point that he wouldn't accept it as a matter of principle even if it was.
 
I have to repeat this - if Roy had excluded individuals - homesteads specifically - I'd be right on board. It is actually the only reason why I became interested in this thread, as I could argue all of his fondest points way better than him, I think. I do not believe in property "rights", or rights of ownership of land for any but homesteaders. Individuals, as a matter of right. Not for governments, corporations, foreigners, fictitious collectives of any kind, and not as a commodity to be speculated on or traded in bulk or mass quantities. They really can all be driven out on a rail, as far as I am concerned, abolished (in the form of government) or taxed completely out of existence if they don't serve the public interest. But not sovereign individuals one to another - that truly is evil.

The only problems for me are where to VERY CAUTIOUSLY draw the line with individuals. If I see a Warren Buffet buying up an entire state, that bastard's got some 'splainin to do. If I see a farmer taking on a thousand acres, my only question is whether it's being farmed, or just farmed out. But if he's biting off what he can really chew, I don't have a problem with that. House flippers, land speculators, commercial developers, etc., can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned. Then it really is a question of whether it serves a public interest or not. They are acting as a matter of privilege in such cases, and I don't have a problem with slapping them into their places - especially if it affects the ability of the middle, working, and poorer classes to own land of their own.
 
Steven,

Do you truly want to give property rights to homesteaders? Absolute, full, non-mealy-mouthed or wishy-washy rights? Because if you do:

The property right includes the right to sell.
He may sell it to whomever he wishes.
In selling it, he sells the entire property right, and the new owner has the same property right as the original homesteader had.
One man or company of men may buy up tract after tract after tract from original homesteaders, freely selling them their land.
Thus a non-homesteader ends up with miles upon miles of land. His right to this land is as absolute as any homesteader's. He may even decide to hold some of it out of production due to anticipation of some new trend or development on the horizon. The "idleness" of the land does not automatically and immediately forfeit his right to the land, though eventually after several years (or whatever the custom is) the vacant lot becomes the abandoned lot and is available for homestead again.

I won't complicate and confuse the issue by going into governments, corporations, nor foreigners, but just stick to non-homesteading individuals. If the original homesteaders had a property right in the land, that property right was transferable, else it was not a full and absolute property right at all.

Over time, the tendency will be for land to accumulate to a degree in the hands of those best suited to own it. Just as Steve Jobs was good at making decisions about smart phones, and thus got a large portion of the smart phone market, so a Steve Jobs-equivalent in landownership will be able to get a disproportionate share of the land market.

I said we should bring in Cantillon, so here he is:

Even if the prince distribute the land equally among all the
inhabitants it will ultimately be divided among a small number.
One man will have several children and cannot leave to each of
them a portion of land equal to his own; another will die without
children, and will leave his portion to some one who has land
already rather than to one who has none; a third will be lazy,
prodigal, or sickly, and be obliged to sell his portion to
another who is frugal and industrious, who will continually add
to his estate by new purchases and will employ upon it the labour
of those who having no land of their own are compelled to offer
him their labour in order to live.

At the first settlement of Rome each citizen had two
journaux of land allotted to him. Yet there was soon after as
great an inequality in the estates as that which we see today in
all the countries of Europe. The land was divided among a few
owners.

I see nothing wrong with this and everything right. Now in the USA people do like to own their own tiny plot of land. I think that is a healthy and charming habit, worth maintaining, and one that quite likely will continue. But there will certainly be land moguls, too, in a free market. That will be splendid. Roy will hate it. :)
 
And so the time comes at last to part, as I have said everything I wanted to say. I have tried to focus on the important issues and ignore irrelevancies (such as Roy attempting to prove something pro-LVT with Atlas Shrugged, which clearly either he has not read or he has forgotten that in Galt's Gulch the land was owned privately and absolutely and was bought by the money of Midas Mulligan, who got it from giving loans to successful businessmen. Or Matt Butler conflating the shale in the Rockies with the sweet crude in North Dakota and so getting the quantity incredibly wrong.). I have not always been too strict about that, we have had some fun along the way, but at least I think I have, finally, addressed every interesting or potentially persuasive (if it had been anyone but Roy saying it) point that Mr. Roy gave me or that I could invent. I left the Bible stuff to AquaBuddha, who did very creditably. There's all kinds of references in the Bible supporting the idea that land is meant to be private property. The Bible as a whole is a very pro-property book. Of course, the Bible is true, so it being pro-property should be no surprise.

Anyway, I've tried to address this idea of LVT/landowning-as-theft from every different angle and approach possible. I saved one pro-LVT argument for last, since it appeared to be, in Mr. L.'s own opinion, his strongest, most devastating, most unanswerable argument. Since we have reached 100 pages at last, it is time to address the Pan-Ultimate LVT Argument. Here it is:

The Question:

"How, exactly, is production aided by the landowner's demand that the producer pay HIM for what government, the community and nature provide?"

In the end, however, it turns out that this is not going to be very difficult to address after all. It's a bit of a let-down, an anti-climax. Production is aided by the land owner (or harmed by him) because of the good decisions (or bad ones) that he makes regarding the disposition and management of the land. Allowing the market to reward his good decisions and punish his bad ones ensures that there will be a tendency for production to be aided by the landowner instead of harmed. Every other sector of the market functions the same way. Competition and consumer preference means that behavior not aiding production to satisfy humans' wants will be punished, while behavior which does will be rewarded.

Mr. L. will say "But the landowner doesn't do any labor, thus he's a parasite". Well that's just the Calvinist Smith talking. Everything was all about labor to Smith -- the pain of labor was good and righteous and that is what gave economic products value. But bzzt, wrong, in fact the subjective preferences and values of humans is what gives goods value. The labor theory of value is so shot full of holes and absurdities it's impossible for me to shoot any new ones in it. So anyway, it's wrong. Labor is irrelevant to value. If I can satisfy millions of consumers by doing no labor whatsoever, then of course I should get paid tremendously for it. I deserve it! The end goal is millions of satisfied humans, not some kind of ascetic labor for the sake of labor. And the landowner, if he makes decisions regarding his land which satisfy his fellow humans, then obviously he's contributed to the satisfaction of his fellow humans. He's created value, or "aided production" as Mr. L. phrases it.

But the landowner can get rich even just by leaving the land idle and that's inefficient and horrible, says Mr. L. Well, who says leaving it idle is inefficient? In many cases, that is the most efficient thing to do. Putting improvements on the land might actually lower the value of the land for someone coming along later. Let's say you build a gas station on some land. OK, now a couple years later it turns out that would've been a great place for an apartment complex. The apartments are a much better, more efficient use of he land, according to market preferences. Now the gas station will need to be torn down -- it's a dis-improvement, an annoyance, and a large cost. A speculator wise enough to hold it out of use and off the market for a couple more years could have saved everyone a lot of money. That is, he could have created value.

Land owners perform a very important entrepreneurial function: they allocate and make ultimate decisions regarding scarce land. This is not a parasitic function. This is a critically important function. They may delegate many or all of the decision-making to managers. Fine. So too may the shop owner or restaurant owner delegate many or all of his decisions to managers. But the owner in all cases still plays a vital role. He must find and hire the best managers. He must make sure the managers are doing a good job, making him lots of money. And he is always and unavoidably the ultimate manager, the manager of managers, the one with the money on the line and who determines the direction and future of the restaurant or shop or land. He must correctly anticipate consumer desires. In landowning, that means anticipating city growth trends, adopting new and innovative ways of utilizing land if they will allow better satisfaction of consumer desires, rejecting them if they will not, making connections and putting together projects (roads, electrical, water, making it all fit together, on a free market landowners would do all this, not the state; there's no reason to put the state in charge of roads, electrical, water, or any of those kinds of things, it will be the job of clever landowners working together to make everything fit together into urban [or rural, or suburban] spaces people will love), keeping land undeveloped when it will be most efficient to do so, developing it when that will be more efficient, and deciding what will be the best and most profitable type of development for which to use the land. And much more! Landowners have a busy, busy job, a lot to do.

A big landowner may not be down in the trenches doing lots of manual labor improving his properties. Instead his labor is making decisions. Well, just so the big CEO's job is largely decision-making. Decision-making is important. It is productive. It is, in fact, indispensable and probably the most productive thing one can do!

That is why production is aided by the landowner getting paid. By the way, the other side of this is that he can sustain losses, too. Under Mr. L.'s Platonic ideal, he can't make any profit, but neither can he incur any loss. That's bad. Via the fantastic and quasi-miraculous mechanism of profit and loss, markets reward the value-producing, punish the value-destroying, and thus get more and more of the productive and less and less of the destructive. Without that incentive mechanism, there is no reason for any landowner (land-tenant under Mr. L.'s ideal) to take any risks, to go to any huge mental effort regarding his land, to do anything to try to increase the value of his land. That increase will go to the nation-state; he won't see a dime. Also the best landowners will not be able to progressively control more and more land while the worst lose more and more to their superiors outcompeting them. There is still an incentive mechanism in the ability to make profit or loss on the improvements, Mr. L. will belaboringly remind us, but there will not be any such mechanism on the land itself. The loss of that mechanism will cause the land allocation to become, eventually, crummy.

I wish there were more to say regarding this The Question. But it's really quite simple: land managers have control over an important part of the economy: land. That being so, they perform an important economic role. That role may be performed either well or poorly. The way to encourage superior performance is to allow these land managers to be subject to market forces and incentives, driving them towards ever-greater efficiency and productivity in satisfying customer wants. That is, to let them be landowners and not landtenants, and thus receive the full rewards of their wisdom or bear the full costs of their folly.

I shall not truly depart, I think, but will continue popping in to see if anything interesting is happening. I will perhaps make a table of contents linking to my most substantive posts of the thread for easy reference. But for now, I really have nothing more to say. I think that I have made a somewhat good case for landownership, and that I have unraveled and disposed of the case against it at least to an extent.

This was the best Georgism thread ever. I'd like to thank Roy L. for being my muse. And now in conclusion, Roy, I'd like to shock you by announcing that you are right! I have been lying all along. All the things you said were lies really were lies. All the things you said were just stupid or absurd really were idiotic and nonsensical. I didn't think it was possible, but you convinced me. Your style of argument is abrasive, it is hard-hitting, but as you say, realizing you're on the side of evil is hard, and so it calls for hard medicine. You never compromised the truth and so finally I was forced to truly and deeply reexamine my beliefs. Thank you for helping me to see my mistakes and how messed up my world-view was. Please, don't ever change your arguing method. It is the most effective one. Keep up the good fight for Land Justice!
 
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Agreed with just about everything you wrote, with one exception: Non-homesteaders, like the land moguls you mentioned, operate as a matter of qualified licensed privilege, and not right. The homesteader, on the other hand, operates ALWAYS as a matter of right. He may buy and sell at will, to and from whomever he likes - meaning ZERO government interference whenever a homesteader is involved, and a decided advantage to all homesteaders as a matter of right. Even to the law erring always on the side of the homesteader. The non-homesteader, on the other hand, can actually be evaluated, regulated, taxed, etc., and treated as the corporations once were, once upon a time, when they actually had to demonstrate that they performed a public service by their existence, and weren't simply granted fictitious immortality and personhood with rights for the filing of some papers. It is not so much to control them as it is to give every natural advantage to the homesteader, the individual, and to ensure that NO artificial advantage is given over any individual. In other words, the only entity that need not fear the natural person is another natural person. Everyone else can quake for all I care.

In principle, I stand behind whatever makes the market MOST free to individuals in their human pursuits - all of the rest operate as incidental, secondary, and qualified where necessary. That, to me, is the essence of the now bastardized "Eminent Domain" doctrine (the spirit of which Roy would love, because it pushes people off of land) as it should have been applied to individuals - and not just to make room for a new highway; a developer or land mogul now can convince city planners that a shopping mall would be great for the city - and poof goes the rights of the individual, who is forced to accept whatever the "incorporated" city declares is the market value - prior to that value going through the roof after John Q. Gotscrewed is pushed aside. In that case, I see John Q. Gotscrewed as having a bona fide case against the city and/or developer for all of the lost value - because his land that he didn't want to sell was the object of speculation. That really is a loss to him (in the case of Eminent Domain only - a forced sale - not just a developer simply buying land and later profiting from it).
 
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But pretty soon in any given place the easiest and most obvious classes of resources, such as surface area of the Earth, have been homesteaded. So the only ones who actually get absolute (read: actual) property rights are the first generation. Anyone to whom they sell the land, or give it as inheritance, will have no right to the land, only privilege, is that right? Or am I misunderstanding your use of the word "homesteader"?
 
I already explained all that in my post.
And I refuted it.
You, on the other hand, accept labels completely and without further examination (when they suit you), with no concern for the reality.
Lie.
All property owners are now leasors. The governments now own all the surface area. Property tax is repealed and lease rent is instituted. The leasors can only keep their tenure right if they pay their lease rent. All better now?
If the rate is a lot higher, and only on land value, yes.
Of course, not even Hong Kong!!11!1 has done that and Mr. L. has no complaints nor criticism for that Georgist paradise,
Lie.
You didn't have any refutation whatsoever for my assessment of Haiti as not having a very high regard for property rights. It very clearly doesn't. A title there is clearly much more tentative, much more iffy, than a title, whoops I'm sorry an exclusive lease, in Hong Kong!!1!1!11.
Nevertheless, landowners who got rich by owning land run the place.
As far as Dubai goes, you demolish that by pointing out (with no specific figures nor sources; that is, as always, with no data) that the elite own most of the land.
No, you are lying again. It is very specifically the GOVERNMENT -- absolute ruler Sheik Mohammed al-Maktoum and his family and businesses -- not any private landowning elite, that owns almost all the land (well over 90% of it by value). I invite all readers to check this fact for themselves. Until recently, no foreigner was even allowed to own land in Dubai at all, and even the locals almost all leased the land from al-Maktoum or his companies.
Which, I think, is likely true. It seems plausible based on my own knowledge, despite your giving no one any reason to believe you.
I have given the best possible reason to believe me: always being honest and factually correct.
This appears to be one of those cases where Roy Reality has an intersection point with Regular Reality. But is that (the elite owning most of the land) not exactly what you say is the evil of my system and the grace of yours? Is not the elite owning everything what I want, and what you want to end as a great evil?
You are deliberately trying to deceive your readers on the crucial fact about this particular landowning elite: it is not an elite of private landowners, it is THE GOVERNMENT.
The fact is, land is untaxed in Dubai.
The fact is, it doesn't have to be, because the government owns it.
No land rent is recovered.
That is a bald lie. Everyone who leases land from the al-Maktoum interests is paying land rent to the government.
Land is taxed in Hong Kong!!11!1. Land rent is recovered. You would look at that "indisputable fact" and predict that Dubai would be a poor and horrible place, especially compared to Hong Kong!!11!1.
Nope. Unlike you, Sheik al-Maktoum and I are willing to know the fact that the land rent he spends on services and infrastructure, as Dubai's government, comes back to him in ever-increasing land rents.
Dubai is your worst dystopia come alive. No land rent is recovered,
Lie, as already proved.
elites own most of the land,
The GOVERNMENT owns almost all of it.
My prediction fits the reality better. Dubai is doing well, and even better than Hong Kong!!11!1.
Because Dubai's government recovers more land rent than Hong Kong's.
So you just completely conceded the practical side of the point. You openly concede the empirical data does not seem to support your theory.
Lie. Private landowning works better than primitive land allocation systems like tribal tenure, but it is far inferior to full land rent recovery instead of taxation of production.
Rather it supports the theory that land-owning, to quote Roy L., "has been economically successful". Splendid quote!
It has been successful compared to primitive land allocation systems that ignore the market, but is still far inferior to full land rent recovery.
And so you fall back upon the moral side of the point ("slavery was successful too, but immoral, just like land-owning") which is now all you have left.
It is an important point, as millions are murdered every year by landowner privilege, a heavier toll than slavery ever exacted.
Normally, no one ever openly concedes anything in these discussions except for me.
Lie. I have PROVED YOU WRONG hundreds of times, and IIRC you have only conceded once.
 
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But pretty soon in any given place the easiest and most obvious classes of resources, such as surface area of the Earth, have been homesteaded. So the only ones who actually get absolute (read: actual) property rights are the first generation. Anyone to whom they sell the land, or give it as inheritance, will have no right to the land, only privilege, is that right? Or am I misunderstanding your use of the word "homesteader"?

Yes, you are misunderstanding my intent - my fault, based on my misuse of the word homesteader.

By homestead I don't mean land originally developed, or granted as a matter of an act of legislation, which in turn has some special legal status associated with it. That would not work, for the reasons you already stated. I mean any "primary declared land" that is owned by any free and natural individual.

In common law it would be something like "fee simple" freehold ownership (although give me the magic wand and it would be more like outright allodial title). Either way it would transfer with each individual as a matter of right. The defining legal characteristics of all land, then, would be based on the nature of the owner, not the land itself, and whether or not it was a primary residence, and therefore subject to homestead/fee simple/freehold/allodial/etc., protection.

So, for example, if I as an individual sold a piece of "fee simple" land to a corporation, it could no longer be fee simple, since that corporation would act as a matter of privilege only, and would be under a completely different jurisdiction and governing set of laws with respect to that same land (i.e., that land could be taxed based on their legal status). However, if I turned around and bought a piece of land from a corporation that was previously taxed based on prior corporate ownership, that piece of land would automatically become "fee simple", and governed under a different set of laws, based on my superior legal status as an individual. As such, it would not be subject to taxation, or other statutory or regulatory controls associated with corporations and others.

In my version, the "absolute" right of fee simple freehold ownership lives and dies as the inalienable right of the owner, who has a unqualified right to a single fee-simple homestead exemption, which follows him throughout his life. The land itself, as a store of wealth, may still be passed on by inheritance, just as now, but it would only be subject to 'homestead' protection if it was declared the "primary land" of the heir to that land. If the heir already had a piece of property that was exempted, s/he could sell or gift it to another individual who had made a claim.

One free and natural person = a single inalienable right (not entitlement) to own and declare one freehold as homestead exemption.
 
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Those who are using some surface area of the Earth to farm and try to have something to eat, or some branches in a tree to put their treehouse to try to stay warm and dry, those folks are actually mistreating and abusing others in an extremely rude and evil manner by virtue of their doing that. Who are they abusing? Those who would, if they offered it for sale, be willing to buy it.
No, those who, if their liberty were not being violated, would be at liberty to use it.
that I have just as much right as them to their land.
"Their" land? Blatant question begging.
I don't know anyone who would. It's just not rational. It's just not civilized. The other guy's tree house isn't hurting me. The other guy isn't being rude to me by having the tree house. I don't accept that he is "monopolizing" the tree in any correct nor historical sense of the word monopoly. I don't accept that I have a right to his tree.
More blatant question begging.
It's just sociopathic to think you are entitled to other men's stuff.
Is that what Friday is, when he is reluctant to get back in the water because Crusoe has "homesteaded" the island? A sociopath?

I'd say the one who advocates and applauds his murder by Crusoe is the sociopath.
So your whole idea that a violation of rights is occurring because people would probably buy it if it were for sale,
That's not my idea. You know this. You are just lying.
Most people don't feel that people owe it to them to transfer their stuff them-ward, "nature-given" or not (and as I've said, everything is ultimately nature-given).
Which, as I've said, is an absurd lie.
Those who do are sociopaths.
Those who rationalize and justify an annual Holocaust are sociopaths.
So in a way, actually the community being there hasn't given the land any value at all.
You know that the land would have no value in the community's absence. Of course you do. You are just lying about it. As usual.
It's totally valueless, except to its owner and those he permits to use it, and except to sociopaths, until and unless the owner is willing to sell it.
Lie. It's value would be just the same if he died. You know this.
Roy will trace your IP address and hunt you down like the foul, sick evil-doer that you are.
I am not the one who tracked down another poster's contributions to other forums and posted a link to them here.

Oh, and you never did say which post you lifted from Rothbard. It was #699 as I said, wasn't it? You even lied about that.
 
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