What do you think of Land Value Tax (LVT)

Of course. There are even many specific quotes to that effect:

"What is this you call property? It cannot be the earth, for the land is our mother, nourishing all her children, beasts, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all. How can one man say it belongs only to him?" -Massasoit of the Pokanoket

"One does not sell the land people walk on." --Crazy Horse of the Oglala Lakota

"We do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us?" -Seattle of the Duwamish

"My reason teaches me that land cannot be sold. The Great Spirit gave it to his children to live upon. So long as they occupy and cultivate it, they have a right to the soil. Nothing can be sold but such things as can be carried away" -- Black Hawk of the Sauk

All of them.

So you are wrong.

Thank you for finally providing examples.

Before I concede that I was wrong I have two questions that still need answering about them:
1) Did these Indian tribes have property taxes? Since you have claimed that it is necessary to have property taxes in order for people not to own land, then either they did have property taxes, or they did believe in land ownership, or else your premise about property taxes is wrong.
2) Did these Indian tribes ever use any means to exclude people from any parcel of land? Such means would include the existence of any structures, either permanent or movable, which they understood to be any person's or family's exclusive property. Since, if they did have such things, they did, de facto, have land ownership.
 
You are misstating the historical facts. It was not that the land was collectivized, but that PRODUCTS OF LABOR were collectivized. Try to find a willingness to know the difference.

Yup. and it was the collectivization of the product of labor that led to starvation. They dealt with this problem by adopting a geoist system where the land was still common territory but each individual/family was able to keep the fruits of the labor. It was a big success.

http://www.progress.org/fold65.htm
 
Yes. But it doesn't only prevent access to people and the products of their labor. It also prevents access to certain land. Do people have a right to use locked doors to prevent others from accessing certain land or not?

If the answer is no, then how else do they prevent them access to people and the products of their labor?


These are tough questions and I think this is where local civic engagement comes in for voluntary organization. As a lone wolf on the hill you may have problems but if you surround yourself with like minded folk you can help watch each other's lots. You could also benefit from having additional shared food production labor and by helping run your own private energy grid off the main bloat grid of the city-state proper.

I have no issue with the fenced in what you can use for real sense of property, but I have serious problems with the historic acquisition of land and misuse of the state which granted privilege and access which still casts a spectre over it today. In Iceland the original rule/agreement was that any man could claim any land that he could light fires around within one day and any woman could lead a herd animal around within one day.


On to land rights use though. I was looking at some land in the North Georgia Mountains and the land use laws are ridiculous. No manufactured homes, no multiple home sites, covenants out the wazoo, and no other animals besides cats and dogs. This is not a community decision but a bank land holder decision.

So I guess I can't go there and raise chickens and be self supportive. I still have to tie in to the grid and live "unfree". So there is that issue too. How can you be free if you have to observe bank dictated covenants and not do with your land what you want so long as it doesn't harm anyone else? Neighborhood decisions are one thing, bank property management which molds "subdivisions" into collectives with fascist rules is another.

In general I think land use should be free, but there should be an "insurance" tax on businesses or dirty polluting companies that want to devalue the land and immediate environment and lower everyone else's quality of life and property.

And finally: Should supermarkets and leased lots be able to prohibit carpoolers from parking in empty Kroger parking lots on threat of towing or booting? A small user fee perhaps, but not a ridiculous impoundment. I was thinking voluntaryist and thought it would be great for the green movement, traffic reduction, and parking woes of city dwellers if they could turn to a private shuttle service in Atlanta that had routes to a few popular destinations that have poor parking access, such as the Capitol and Georgia State University. Shopping centers have plenty of parking and they could even get a small cut. But greed, unwillingness to share and ridiculous laws would prevent this sort of mutual innovation.
 
Last edited:
Humans can and have and do make and create more land. Dykes in the Netherlands created huge tracts of new land. Artificial islands off Dubai are new land created by man. For practical purposes, technology has made tons and tons and tons of previously useless, unusable, worthless land into economically valuable land, feasible to occupy or put to some use. Though this land may have technically existed before, as far as humans are concerned it may as well not have because we couldn't put it to any use. Now we can.

Land CANNOT be created. Those dykes and artificial islands are merely improvements upon land just like a house.
 
I have no issue with the fenced in what you can use for real sense of property, but I have serious problems with the historic acquisition of land and misuse of the state which granted privilege and access which still casts a spectre over it today.

I agree. To me the distinction between recognizing certain problems with land ownership, on the one hand, and denying any right of anyone ever to exclude anyone else from any piece of land, on the other hand, is pretty important.
 
Thank you for finally providing examples.

Before I concede that I was wrong I have two questions that still need answering about them:
1) Did these Indian tribes have property taxes? Since you have claimed that it is necessary to have property taxes in order for people not to own land, then either they did have property taxes, or they did believe in land ownership, or else your premise about property taxes is wrong.
2) Did these Indian tribes ever use any means to exclude people from any parcel of land? Such means would include the existence of any structures, either permanent or movable, which they understood to be any person's or family's exclusive property. Since, if they did have such things, they did, de facto, have land ownership.



Part of my field of study was the political economy of the Southeastern Indians, so you will have to take my imperfect word on it and wait for references and further reading.


The Indian societies were not "perfect" though they used land well. Their societies went through several transitions form extended family kin group band, to free tribes, then to consolidated city-states, then post DeSoto demographic collapse, back to free tribes, so there is no perfect "noble savage" era in the southeast so to speak, but that does not invalidate their claim and right to the land. When they were in the Mississippian phase of paramount chiefdom rule, "tributes" were expected from people and the petty under-chiefdoms, but in general land was shared and was for the most part land use and production relationships could be compared to European feudalism then in later period more like that of the "free-state" Iceland. After this period and into the historic post contact period, tribes utilize a mixed form or property. The people had their own small home plots and small private gardens but they also shared common land to augment the common food supply. Strength in sustainable numbers helped them mutually survive and protect their way of life from future paramount rule. Hunting land was shared but for the most part tribes remained apart and were territorial.

To answer your questions, the Southeastern Indians had a mixed approach to "ownership" of small plots, and personal belongings, yet still shared the land proper. They didn't exclude members of their own tribe, but recognized constriction zones where unofficial borders existed between "territories".

We can't recreate that tribal territorialism but what we can do is borrow from the example of small private use and local group shared resources.


The larger issue I see coming out of the bigger framework of materialism is the issue of land ownership. Theft, trickery, usury and violence was used to wrest this land from the people that were pre-existing. We cannot be vulgar about "ownership" rights now unless we want to embrace the violence and long long history of our kind that got us here. We cannot pay for the sins of our fathers, but we can "check" how we think about legacy and reform how we think about using land. Private ownership is fine in the truly useful subsistence sense, but we have the opportunity to build the notion of the co-op and base land tax based on the notion that a dirty plant takes land away from everyone else and devalues its use. So the plant then is paying everyone else for the right to use it and not just paying some bank financed goon who happened to know the law of usury and state privilege to strong arm everyone off the land.

To make things simpler, large corporations campuses can be charged a land tax which then gets paid out not to the state but to the local organization of people. Land taxes should also be considered for individuals who buy a large amount (20+ acres?) of land and never add use to it while excluding all others.

On the other hand, if your plot just has room for a house and a garden and some power generating and a family size coop of hens, you get off property tax free.


We may not have the answers but the discussion is important because it challenges us to think about the history of land and why it is not a fair comparison for a commodity that someone makes, with possible exceptions to those who truly rescue barren zones and create something fertile.
 
Bingo. Well said. You stopped short, though. Should have explained it.

Common property is not under the control of the government. An example of common property is an open park. Anyone can use it. Anyone can access it. However, governments tend to have so many restrictions on parks that they become collective property. Unfortunately, socialists have perverted the term "commons" to make it practically synonymous with "collective"
 
That's just objectively false.

That is objectively false. A land value tax is unaffected by improvements.

Well maintained neighborhoods do tend to have higher land values, but that is a result of what the whole neighborhood does, not just one homeowner.

Again, that is objectively false. You are talking about the current property tax, not a land value tax.

Then you know that land is much easier to value than improvements, and improvements do not affect land value. If the house burns down, the land value stays the same.

No, of course you haven't. You are just makin' $#!+ up.

Look what Proposition 13 has done to California. Are Texans going to be as stupid as Californians?

None of what I said is false. In Texas we value land AND improvements and combine the two for a total property value. For every 100 dollars of property value, you pay more of your districts' tax rate. Land itself is indeed easier to tax through mass appraisal. However you are boned if you begin to build on it. Then you will be penalized with roll back tax for 5 years for the area you approved on.

Every three years we are required to reappraise all property values in the county we work in. If you have any new additions then we need to measure the square footage and add that to the property value.

Are you on something? Or is this just an issue of me being an appraiser for a different state than you?
 
Last edited:
You have clearly not read anything on what the land value tax is. If you did you would know that adding improvements to the land you occupy would not increase the tax you have to pay.

That is incorrect when it comes to the Texas Property Tax Code. Build a second story or additions and you will be seeing Appraisers with tape ready to measure and increase your property value. If you don't want your taxes to go up, your community will need to bring down tax rates in the whole district.
 
That is incorrect when it comes to the Texas Property Tax Code. Build a second story or additions and you will be seeing Appraisers with tape ready to measure and increase your property value. If you don't want your taxes to go up, your community will need to bring down tax rates in the whole district.

Does the Texas Property Tax Code claim that it's a land value tax? If not, then aren't you talking about something different?
 
Everyone should realize that accepted rules for State Property codes vary from State to state. Each county in Texas has an appraisal system that is an arm of the state government and the county itself has no affiliation with the Appraisal District. The Texas Comptroller oversees it. Only when its schools have board members appointed.

Don't take me for someone lying and especially who doesn't know what I am talking about. I've had to go to homes with or without the owner there and possibly a dangerous pet. Measure the house if even if the owner wasn't there. Appraise it, and move on to the next property. Its not a fun job and I don't recommend it. Hell I don't recommend the ad valorum tax system itself.
 
Everyone should realize that accepted rules for State Property codes vary from State to state. Each county in Texas has an appraisal system that is an arm of the state government and the county itself has no affiliation with the Appraisal District. The Texas Comptroller oversees it. Only when its schools have board members appointed.

Don't take me for someone lying and especially who doesn't know what I am talking about. I've had to go to homes with or without the owner there and possibly a dangerous pet. Measure the house if even if the owner wasn't there. Appraise it, and move on to the next property. Its not a fun job and I don't recommend it. Hell I don't recommend the ad valorum tax system itself.

But isn't the point of the OP that a land value tax is not the same thing as a property tax?
 
Texas Property Tax Code does state it is an ad valorem Land value tax. Improvements are included in the appraisal method.
Land value itself alone not including improvement varies from market value to location.

When I say you are penalized from beautification, it isn't because you make the land look pretty. I mean you discourage increasing value of your property improvements. Adding a pool, second story, additions (YES THEY ARE TAXED), and etc.

When you covert land from farm use to home use, you will suffer roll back taxes for 5 years of being charged ag use.
 
But isn't the point of the OP that a land value tax is not the same thing as a property tax?
It is the same thing in Texas. It is just one part of the total account. It does tend to be less value unless you are talking about multiple acres.
 
The problem is sociobiological.

We have a genetically derived sense of justice that includes a sense of what constitutes "property', "theft", and "sharing". Our sense of right and wrong are shaped by what we have "learned", but is limited by a rather strong template derived through millions of years of natural selection.

Most of that template evolved before land ownership (or anything like it in a modern sense) was even possible. We understand that "wealth" (including but definitely not limited to land) is "property". We also understand that owning property carries with it certain rights, privileges, and obligations. Trying to exclude products of labor from taxation will inevitably lead to a sense of injustice in almost every citizen because it flies in the face of our innate sense of "natural law".

As satisfying and convenient as it may be to propose anarchy or a government funded exclusively through a tax on land, neither is sustainable because we all KNOW* that is "unfair".

We also "know" that there are collective rights that should be respected.

No matter how much or little land Bill Gates "owns", how "productive" he was in acquiring his wealth, or what he earns in annual "income"; 99.9% of the population will believe that he should be required to pay much more in taxes than the average citizen.

* Excepting of course the possibility of the occasional mutant or one whose education has allowed near perfect uncoupling of their consciousness from what the rest of us humans would call "feelings".
 
That is incorrect when it comes to the Texas Property Tax Code. Build a second story or additions and you will be seeing Appraisers with tape ready to measure and increase your property value. If you don't want your taxes to go up, your community will need to bring down tax rates in the whole district.

And that is exactly what Georgists oppose. Land Value Tax negates the improvements you make.
 
By declaring land as capital you all have accepting Marx's redefinition of land. Classical liberals made it clear they viewed land as different from capital. Capital has an original creator. Land does not. Pretty simple stuff.

Ground rents are a species of revenue which the owner, in many cases, enjoys without any care or attention of his own. Ground rents are, therefore, perhaps a species of revenue which can best bear to have a peculiar tax imposed upon them. --Adam Smith

Landlords grow richer in their sleep, without working, risking, or economizing. The increase in the value of land, arising as it does from the efforts of an entire community, should belong to the community and not to the individual who might hold title. --John Stuart Mill ...

Men did not make the earth.... It is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property.... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds. --Tom Paine
 
I know a lot of libertarians like to quote AJ Nock so here's a good one:

The only reformer abroad in the world in my time who interested me in the least was Henry George, because his project did not contemplate prescription, but, on the contrary, would reduce it to almost zero. He was the only one of the lot who believed in freedom, or (as far as I could see) had any approximation to an intelligent idea of what freedom is, and of the economic prerequisites to attaining it.... One is immensely tickled to see how things are coming out nowadays with reference to his doctrine, for George was in fact the best friend the capitalist ever had. He built up the most complete and most impregnable defense of the rights of capital that was ever constructed, and if the capitalists of his day had had sense enough to dig in behind it, their successors would not now be squirming under the merciless exactions which collectivism is laying on them, and which George would have no scruples whatever about describing as sheer highwaymanry. Free Speech and Plain Language, February 1935, p. 159

http://geolib.com/sullivan.dan/commonrights.html#antimarxist
 
The government has no more right to ownership of the land than you or I. There is a difference between a 'commons' and a 'collective'.
Incorrect. You and I do have the right to purchase and own land. This has been demonstrated by Locke, Mises, Schaffer, Rothbard, Hume, Blackstone, and numerous others.

Look at what you missed by selectively quoting Adam Smith:
"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is, in reality, instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have property against those who have none at all." (from Wealth Of Nations)
 
Last edited:
By declaring land as capital you all have accepting Marx's redefinition of land. Classical liberals made it clear they viewed land as different from capital. Capital has an original creator. Land does not. Pretty simple stuff.

Ground rents are a species of revenue which the owner, in many cases, enjoys without any care or attention of his own. Ground rents are, therefore, perhaps a species of revenue which can best bear to have a peculiar tax imposed upon them. --Adam Smith

Landlords grow richer in their sleep, without working, risking, or economizing. The increase in the value of land, arising as it does from the efforts of an entire community, should belong to the community and not to the individual who might hold title. --John Stuart Mill ...

Men did not make the earth.... It is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property.... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds. --Tom Paine
Quoting 3 classical liberals doesn't represent the opinions of all of them.
 
Back
Top