Was Christmas originally a pagan holiday? Nope.

It's interesting-in Russian, the word for Saturday is Суббота, which is synonymous with "Sabbath". Sunday is called "Воскресенье"-"Resurrection Day", derived from the root word воскресь-"to resurrect".

The Greek word for the 7th day of the week is also Sabbaton. In Spanish it's Sabado.

The early Church did meet for worship on the first day of the week as a commemoration of the Resurrection. They did call it the Lord's Day. But they didn't call it a Sabbath. And they never expected any Gentiles to keep the Sabbath anyway. I don't know when the idea came about that the commandment to keep the Sabbath could be kept by Christians on the 1st day of the week, rather than the 7th.
 
Hundreds of years after The death of Christ,, some Roman said he could date it..

But scripture does not.

nice attempt at an argument though.

I don't see why you call it an attempt at an argument. I don't claim that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. But Jmdrake said no Christians before Constantine dated the birth of Jesus to Dec. 25. And Julius Africanus did so (I think) 100 years before Constantine.
 
theres so much fail in your post I dont even think I can address it all... its okay to believe what you believe but its all based on belief and faith and you have no way to prove anything that youve said.. none of it makes sense.. none of it is necessary..... God doesnt need a Son to forgive anything from anyone... God is God.. God can do anything He wants.

The issue is not "can God do something", the issue is "did God do something", until you make this distinction, nothing will make sense to you in a Christian context. The prophecy of Christ's coming was decreed in Genesis 3:15 and continually echoed throughout the OT, particularly in Isaiah. Try getting your theology from somewhere other than South Park.

God never talked to any man??? I guess you missed when God talked to Adam, Moses, Abraham, and Noah... Theres a bunch more by the way.

I said God The Father didn't speak directly to any man. All of the instances that you mentioned are pre-Incarnation instances of Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God speaking as mediator to the prophets and patriarchs. If you don't know how the doctrine of The Trinity works, you might want to brush up on it before running your mouth.

I dont need a middleman to pray to God nor to confess my sins... Any man trying to hide anything from God is quite the nut...

Christ is God, calling him a middleman is calling the entire bible a lie. If you want to be an atheist, at least do us the courtesy of ceasing to act as though you know what you are talking about.

The Bible itself is a collection of works made by man.. its not perfect. its fallible like anything else we make. Your belief system prevents you from critically thinking about the subject.. the explanations you give are no different than when American Indians asked the question of what cause thunder and they said "the Thunderbird"

Nope, wrong, try again. Look up the word "inspired" and then give it another go. If a person says something in court and the clerk types it out, the clerk wrote it, but he is not the author and the fallibility or lack thereof rests on the speaker, not the writer. Each account in scripture had multiple witnesses, where as modern skeptics like yourself only have your incredulity and a rather off-putting snarky tone.

P.S. - Spare me the patronizing crap about it being "okay for me to believe what I believe", if you actually think that you can knock off the snarky tone that painted your opening post in this conversation. Just man up and call me a bone-headed theist, at least you'll be a tad bit more honest.

lol come on, gotta have a sense of humor.

Not to be overly hostile, but just to put this out there, fuck having a sense of humor. These discussions are not trivial to those who are having them, and frankly hiding idiotic assertions under the veil of comedy is insulting to everyone's intelligence. If some one wants to say something brazenly stupid, let them stand by it.
 
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The Priestly courses which point to Christ's Nativity on December 25 as the likely date

The following charts recreate the weeks of the Hebrew calendar and priestly courses for the years B.C. 23- A.D. 70. The Hebrew calendar was reformed in the fifth century by Hillel II and contains elements not present in Jesus’ day. Hillel’s reforms include various postponements of Rosh Hashanah (Tishri 1, the Jewish New Year) to prevent it and other feast days from falling on or next to the Sabbath. To accomplish this, Rosh Hashanah is made to occur only on set days under differing conditions, and the length of the year adjusted accordingly between 353, 354, and 355 in regular years, and 383, 384, and 385 in leap years. Because these postponements did not exist in Jesus’ day, the present-day Hebrew calendar is not a reliable guide to ancient dates, and offers at best only an approximation. However, because it is widely employed, we have used it here except where the dates produced are known to be in error or conflict with the testimony of history. Specifically, Jewish tradition dating 80 years from the event tells us that the 9th of Ab the week the temple was destroyed the second time fell on a Sunday. However, Hillel’s calendar causes this day to fall on a Saturday, one day off. Scripture tells us Jesus died on Good Friday, Nisan 15, A.D. 33, but Hillel’s calendar places Nisan 15 on a Saturday. Finally, Hippolytus (A.D. 170-240) placed Dec. 25th in 2 B.C. on a Wednesday, but Hillel’s calendar again places this on a Saturday. In all these cases we have corrected the present charts to conform with scripture and the testimony of history. However, as a given week will vary by seven days at most, for purposes of showing Christ could have been born Dec. 25th, variations in the calendar will not affect the overall result.

Click links for charts

http://www.dec25th.info/pdf books/Priestly Courses 23 BC - AD 70 Revised.pdf
 
The Priestly courses which point to Christ's Nativity on December 25 as the likely date

The following charts recreate the weeks of the Hebrew calendar and priestly courses for the years B.C. 23- A.D. 70. The Hebrew calendar was reformed in the fifth century by Hillel II and contains elements not present in Jesus’ day. Hillel’s reforms include various postponements of Rosh Hashanah (Tishri 1, the Jewish New Year) to prevent it and other feast days from falling on or next to the Sabbath. To accomplish this, Rosh Hashanah is made to occur only on set days under differing conditions, and the length of the year adjusted accordingly between 353, 354, and 355 in regular years, and 383, 384, and 385 in leap years. Because these postponements did not exist in Jesus’ day, the present-day Hebrew calendar is not a reliable guide to ancient dates, and offers at best only an approximation. However, because it is widely employed, we have used it here except where the dates produced are known to be in error or conflict with the testimony of history. Specifically, Jewish tradition dating 80 years from the event tells us that the 9th of Ab the week the temple was destroyed the second time fell on a Sunday. However, Hillel’s calendar causes this day to fall on a Saturday, one day off. Scripture tells us Jesus died on Good Friday, Nisan 15, A.D. 33, but Hillel’s calendar places Nisan 15 on a Saturday. Finally, Hippolytus (A.D. 170-240) placed Dec. 25th in 2 B.C. on a Wednesday, but Hillel’s calendar again places this on a Saturday. In all these cases we have corrected the present charts to conform with scripture and the testimony of history. However, as a given week will vary by seven days at most, for purposes of showing Christ could have been born Dec. 25th, variations in the calendar will not affect the overall result.

Click links for charts

http://www.dec25th.info/pdf books/Priestly Courses 23 BC - AD 70 Revised.pdf


Who cares? Where in the Bible does it say Christians should celebrate the birth of Christ? Why do you keep ignoring the most important question?
 
Who cares? Where in the Bible does it say Christians should celebrate the birth of Christ? Why do you keep ignoring the most important question?
Because that's only the most important question to Sola Scripturists, which TER is not.
 
This is a reply by a 'non-denominational' Protestant Chrisian, taken from this link: http://truthsaves.org/articles/is-christmas-a-pagan-holiday/


Is Christmas a Pagan Holiday?



Question from a Site Viewer:

I would really like to know Tim’s opinion about the arguments that some that are Calvinist and reformist have against celebrating Christmas and their correlation between Christmas and pagan celebrations.

Reply by Tim:

I appreciate your question about those who do not see Christmas as a good thing. My quick response is that those who do not believe they should celebrate Christmas should not celebrate it. And those who believe that they should set the day aside to celebrate the birth of our King should do so. And neither should condemn the other (Romans 14:5-6). We should each live by our consciences as enlightened by Scripture. But I suspect you may actually want to know what I think of the logic given by some for why they think Christmas is not a good thing. I will share with you my thinking.

First, I note that Scripture neither speaks of the celebration of the birth of Christ (after, of course, the actual birth) or prohibits such celebration. Scripture is silent on this precise issue. But Scripture is not silent on celebrations. In the Old Testament, God commanded three distinct times of celebrations; the Passover/Unleavened Bread feasts, the Pentecost/Feast of Firstfruits, and the Feast of Tabernacles (Deuteronomy 16:1-17). These were times of celebrations, remembering God’s great mercies to His people. They were annual commemorations of significant events in the salvatory work of God for Israel. They were commanded repeatedly by God, but seldom honored by His people. They were to be a time of great joy, with the commandment to save a tithe to spend it in celebration for whatever one’s heart desired (Deuteronomy 14:22-29; Nehemiah 8:10-12). And God never intended that these three celebrations, or the other more minor celebrations established by the law, were to be the only celebrations of God’s people. For instance, we have the story of Esther where we find that after God brought deliverance to the Jews, Mordecai commanded and to this days the Jews continue to celebrate Purim with yearly feasting, joy and sending presents to one another and giving to the poor (Esther 9:20-23). God is the God of celebrations and yearly remembrances of significant events helps to draw our hearts back to the work of the Savior on our behalf. Jesus speaks of the woman who lost one of her coins. When she found her coin, she rejoiced and called for a celebration with her friends and neighbors (Luke 15:8-10). Celebrations of the goodness of God on our behalf is a good thing.

And there is perhaps no greater event, except for the Passion and Resurrection, than the coming of our Messiah to this earth. The prophets of the Old Testament looked forward to that birth, foretelling the very place where it would occur. Luke provides more material on the birth of Christ than on either the passion of Christ or the resurrection of Christ. So it is a significant event to remember.

The particular problem that some see in Christmas is its pagan origins, as they would say. If you read the sites or listen to the tales of woes, Christmas sprung from paganism and represents the very form of syncretism that God condemned in the Old Testament (see 2 Kings 17:32-34). Besides, for those who are reformers, the celebration smacks of the papacy and all that they see as wrong in the Roman Catholic church. The very name “Christmas” comes from Christ’s mass.

But I personally do not find the facts as dire as the hype. First, the celebration on December 25 has not been shown to be a takeover by the Roman Catholics of a pagan celebration, although you will find many scholars who state this as if it were fact.

Here is what is known. December 25 was the day given for the birth of Mithras, a Persian god that was brought to the Romans by soldiers in the east after the time of Christ. The worship of Mithras did not begin until around 70 A.D. by some Roman soldiers. At the very end of the second century A.D., the emperor took notice and in the next hundred years or so it became a more major celebration in Rome. But finding evidence for a Roman celebration of this Persian god on December 25 prior to the late third century is difficult. In fact, though proclaimed by Aurelian as a day of celebration, December 25 did not become the major Roman December celebration until late in the 4th century A.D. By that time, Christians had already long been celebrating the birth of Christ on that date. Check out this research for this late date for the December 25 celebration by Romans, which gives the dates for the celebration of the sun on December 25 as beginning no earlier than 354 A.D. in Rome. And while it is true that other cultures celebrated pagan feasts on December 25, I do not find such facts to be relevant to the argument that the church adopted a pagan festival, when the celebration of Christmas on that date began in the Roman world, not in these other pagan areas. The big celebration for the Romans was that of Saturnalia, a celebration that began on December 17 and ran through December 23. This celebration involved the god Saturn, not the sun. The Romans celebrated the sun, but the big celebrations for the sun were in August, not December. So when you read various authors who hold a near-uniform position that Christians co-opted a pagan holiday, you should know that they are not near as uniform as to which holiday the Christians supposedly co-opted. And the problem for them is that there is a lack of evidence that the Romans celebrated any holiday on December 25, the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar in use at that time, prior to the Christians celebrating Christ’s birth on that date.

Let me provide you the evidence we have. First, Chrysostom, in 386 A.D., states in a homily that the birth of Christ was on December 25 and that this fact had been “known from of old” to the churches in the west. He also states that he had inquired of Rome and that the census records supporting that date were still in existence in Rome. He third argues that the order of Abijah was serving on the Day of Atonement when the announcement came to Zacharias. The Day of Atonement is in September/October. Six months later, according to Luke, the announcement came to Mary, and nine months later would be the end of December. That the order of Abijah was serving for the Day of Atonement is computed backwards from the fall of Jerusalem, when we are told what order of the priests were serving. Many have questioned the validity of the computation, but the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls seems to provide support to the regularity of the orders in their service. At least to Chrysostom, there seemed to be no question. Neither did there seem to be a question for Augustine, who assigned the birth date to December 25, using some of the same reasoning, and celebrated the day.

Second, we have historical records stating that Cyril, the great bishop at Jerusalem, asked Pope Julius, who served from 337 and 352 in Rome, to assign the true date of Jesus’ birth based on the census documents brought by Titus to Rome. Titus, of course, was the Roman general who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and then returned to Rome with all of the spoils of the conflict. Pope Julius said that the date was December 25.

Third, we have documents that purport to be even more ancient establishing December 25 as the date of Christ’s birth. There is a document attributed to Theophilus, bishop of Antioch from 171-183 A.D. who records the Gauls as saying that as they celebrate the birth on December 25, no matter what day of the week it was, so they should celebrate the resurrection on March 25, no matter what day of the week it was. This document is preserved only in Latin and some have questioned its authenticity; but I have not been able to determine the grounds on which it is challenged. If this document is from Theophilus, this would place the celebration of Christmas by the Gauls into the second century A.D., less than a 100 years after the time of the apostles. It would also support Chrysostom’s statement concerning the antiquity of the celebration in the West. Hippolytus, in around 202 A.D. also wrote about Christ’s birth and in at least one copy of his writing there is included the date of December 25. Most scholars, however, do not accept this reference as being part of Hippolytus original text, although some have questioned this conclusion.

What can be said from the evidence is that almost certainly Christmas was celebrated on December 25 by some sections of the church prior to 300 A.D., shortly after Aurelian; likely was celebrated in some quarters prior to Aurelian; and if Chrysostom is right, was celebrated by some segments of the Western Church long before Aurelian. It is also clear that the early church based its choice of the date, not on co-opting a prior pagan holiday on that date, but on genuine arguments that the birth of Christ occurred on that date, including a reference to the census documents in Rome, and the calculation of the order of priests, as well as arguments concerning the importance of having the date on one of the quarter days (the winter solstice, spring equinox, summer solstice, and autumn equinox). There is a great deal of information in the early documents about Christ’s passion being on the same date as the annunciation and the birth being on the date of the winter solstice. Accordingly, the linkage to Christmas being a takeover of a pagan holiday is not as strong as some might suggest.

This is not to say that I believe Christ was born on December 25. I do not know the date of His birth. And whether there is some connection to the celebration on that date and pagan traditions I cannot say for sure. What I can say is that the evidence for such linkage is not as strong as many have suggested. Further, in my view, there is at least some evidence that Christ’s actual birth was celebrated on December 25 early in the church. One can make arguments for alternative days, such as December 21 (our present winter solstice), or January 6, the date of Epiphany which had some early support in the church as being the day of Christ’s birth. There are also some ancient documents that would argue for a March/April date for the birth, but I do not find their arguments as convincing. (I also note that the Orthodox Church celebrates Christmas on January 7, but this is not because of a disagreement over the December 25 date, but rather a disagreement over whether to follow the Julian or the Gregorian calendar to calculate that date. December 25 on the Julian calendar falls on January 7 of the Gregorian (our present) calendar.)

In any event, I do not mean to cast any aspersions on those who hold a contrary view. I simply note that the celebration of Christ’s birth is a celebration of a significant event in the life of the world and God’s grace to the world, and I see great value in such celebrations. I personally do not accept all of the modern traditions that have developed around Christmas, but for me personally Christmas represents the second greatest annual holiday, ranking only behind the passion/Easter celebration. I continued to be astonished at the Incarnation, and challenged by the incredible grace of the Triune God in the coming of Jesus. I think it is something worthy of celebration.

I hope this is helpful.
 
A Roman Catholic reply:

http://catholicherald.com/stories/Was-Jesus-really-born-Dec-25,24876


Was Jesus really born Dec. 25?


Fr. William Saunders


Q: At work, I was having a debate about whether Christ was really born on Dec. 25. One fellow worker — a professed atheist — said that this was a made-up date and that the church used the dates of pagan Roman holidays for Christmas. Can you help me out? (Lansdowne)

A: How wonderful it would be if Our Lord had been born in the age of information technology or even when the public records office issued birth certificates. Alas, the Gospels do not provide such information. Nevertheless, some scriptural detective work can help determine the date of Christ’s birth.

St. Luke related the announcement of the birth of St. John the Baptist to his elderly parents, St. Zechariah and St. Elizabeth. St. Zechariah was a priest of the class of Abijah (Lk 1:5), the eighth class of 24 priestly classes (Neh 12:17). Each class served one week in the temple, twice a year.

Josef Heinrich Friedlieb has established that the priestly class of Abijah would have been on duty during the second week of the Jewish month Tishri, the week of the Day of Atonement or in our calendar, between Sept. 22 and 30. While on duty, the Archangel Gabriel informed Zechariah that he and Elizabeth would have a son (Lk 1:5-24). Thereupon, they conceived John, who after presumably 40 weeks in the womb would have been born at the end of June. For this reason, we celebrate the Nativity of St. John the Baptist June 24.

St. Luke also recorded how the Archangel Gabriel told Mary that Elizabeth was six months pregnant with John (Lk 1:36), which means the Annunciation occurred March 25, as we celebrate. Nine months from March 25, or six months from June 24, renders the birth of Christ at Dec. 25, our Christmas.

On a pious note, would not our Blessed Mother herself have remembered all of these details, especially how she conceived by the Holy Spirit and bore the Savior? Surely. All mothers — including my own — remember these details. Would not the apostles have asked her these questions, at least after the Ascension? Would not St. Luke, who included the details of the Annunciation and Visitation, not have learned them from our Blessed Mother? Pope Benedict in his book Jesus of Nazareth: The Infancy Narratives noted this very point: “Luke indicates from time to time that Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is herself one of his sources, especially when he says in 2:51 that ‘His mother kept all these things in her heart’ (cf. also 2:19) Only she could report the event of the Annunciation, for which there were no human witnesses. … To sum up: What Matthew and Luke set out to do, each in his own way, was not to tell ‘stories’ but to write history, real history that had actually happened, admittedly interpreted and understood in the context of the word of God.” So given the facts of the Gospel, we discover the date of Christmas.

Now if this dating is true, then the early church must have celebrated Christmas Dec. 25. Is there evidence? Admittedly, evidence is sparse because Christianity and the church were persecuted by the Roman Empire until 313, and no one knows how much evidence has been lost. Nevertheless, according to the Liber Pontificalis, Pope St. Telesphorus (125-136) instituted the tradition of celebrating midnight Mass, which means Christmas already was being celebrated. St. Theophilus (AD 115-181), bishop of Caesarea, stated, “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.” St. Hippolytus (170-240) mentioned in his Commentary on Daniel that the birth of Christ occurred Dec. 25.

After Constantine legalized Christianity in 313, the church was able to establish universal dates for the celebration of feast days, including Christmas and the Annunciation. As such, evidence shows the celebration of Christmas Dec. 25: Pope Liberius (352-66) celebrated Christmas Mass in Rome; St. Gregory Nazianzus (d. 389) in Constantinople, and St. Ambrose (d. 397) in Milan. Keep in mind that they would not have just “picked a date,” but used the date already accepted by the church.

So what about Christmas being substituted for the pagan holidays? The Romans did celebrate Saturnalia between Dec. 17 and 23, commemorating the winter solstice Dec. 23, but Christmas does not fit that time frame.

What about the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” Dec. 25? Emperor Aurelian instituted this celebration in 274 (therefore, after the Christian celebration of Christmas and perhaps to overshadow it). After legalization in 313, Dec. 25 was purged of any pagan notion: For example, an ancient codex of that time marked Dec. 25 as the “Nativity of the Unconquered” (meaning Jesus), not the “Nativity of the Unconquered Sun.” Then again, Emperor Julian the Apostate (reigned 361-63), who had apostatized and wanted to return the empire to paganism, tried to suppress Christmas and ordered the celebration of the Birth of the Unconquered Sun, a decision reversed upon his death. In sum, Christmas was celebrated Dec. 25 prior to any pagan celebration on the same date. (See Taylor Marshall’s The Eternal City: Rome and the Origins of Christianity).

While we can verify the date of Christmas, the most important point is celebrating the birth of Our Lord. Remember “Christmas” is derived from the Old English Cristes Maesse, which means “The Mass of Christ.” This Christmas, may we lift up our hearts at the holy sacrifice of the Mass and receive Our Lord, born again into our souls through the grace of the holy Eucharist.
 
The issue is not "can God do something", the issue is "did God do something", until you make this distinction, nothing will make sense to you in a Christian context. The prophecy of Christ's coming was decreed in Genesis 3:15 and continually echoed throughout the OT, particularly in Isaiah. Try getting your theology from somewhere other than South Park.



I said God The Father didn't speak directly to any man. All of the instances that you mentioned are pre-Incarnation instances of Christ as the eternally begotten Son of God speaking as mediator to the prophets and patriarchs. If you don't know how the doctrine of The Trinity works, you might want to brush up on it before running your mouth.



Christ is God, calling him a middleman is calling the entire bible a lie. If you want to be an atheist, at least do us the courtesy of ceasing to act as though you know what you are talking about.



Nope, wrong, try again. Look up the word "inspired" and then give it another go. If a person says something in court and the clerk types it out, the clerk wrote it, but he is not the author and the fallibility or lack thereof rests on the speaker, not the writer. Each account in scripture had multiple witnesses, where as modern skeptics like yourself only have your incredulity and a rather off-putting snarky tone.

P.S. - Spare me the patronizing crap about it being "okay for me to believe what I believe", if you actually think that you can knock off the snarky tone that painted your opening post in this conversation. Just man up and call me a bone-headed theist, at least you'll be a tad bit more honest.



Not to be overly hostile, but just to put this out there, fuck having a sense of humor. These discussions are not trivial to those who are having them, and frankly hiding idiotic assertions under the veil of comedy is insulting to everyone's intelligence. If some one wants to say something brazenly stupid, let them stand by it.
everything you say is simply your belief.. thats it.. to somebody of a different religion youre the one wrong get it?

Im not an atheist by any means. I simply dont agree with church dogma.. These discussions are pointless because they become nothing more than my religion is better than your religion kind of stuff..

I dont need to go thru another man to pray to God or confess.... period.. those are my beliefs.. Im not the one who started with the snarky tone either, it was your buddy.... so if you guys cant be tolerant of others' dont expect it in return.
 
No I wasn't proven wrong.

Yes you were. You just lack the honesty to admit it. You where in the Bible does it say anything about having a relationship with Jesus. Then after you were proven wrong you changed your question to say where in the Bible does it say that having a relationship with Jesus is part of the gospel. You are dishonest and everybody reading this thread knows it.
 
Yes you were. You just lack the honesty to admit it. You where in the Bible does it say anything about having a relationship with Jesus. Then after you were proven wrong you changed your question to say where in the Bible does it say that having a relationship with Jesus is part of the gospel. You are dishonest and everybody reading this thread knows it.

You keep posting responses, yet you never post the verse that says anything close to "have a relationship with Jesus".

Why don't you just prove me wrong right here and post it?
 
You keep posting responses, yet you never post the verse that says anything close to "have a relationship with Jesus".

Someone already did. You admitted it. Then you changed the question. So now you are doubly lying.
 
Ter, you seem to have brought up this entire thread just to wallow in your own beliefs (SELF).
 
St. John Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople at the end of the fourth century wrote: "On this day also the Birthday of Christ was lately fixed at Rome in order that while the heathen were busy with their profane ceremonies, the Christians might perform their sacred rites undisturbed. They call this (December 25th), the Birthday of the Invincible One; but who is so invincible as the Lord? They call it the Birthday of the Solar Disk, but Christ is the Sun of Righteousness."
From link below,


and many other links.
 
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That's relational language. But where in the Bible is the gospel described as "have a relationship with Jesus"? The answer is its not. The gospel is described in the first 8 or 9 chapters of Romans very extensively, and there is no mention of relationship. There is mention of law, accounting, imputation, etc....not relationship.

"Have a relationship" is a popular false gospel. It's not Biblical. You can always spot a false gospel because it doesn't describe salvation in the terms the Bible describes it.

And here is proof of your lying Sola_Fide. You admit that RJB posted what is clearly "relational language" when talking about a relationship with Jesus. But then you shifted the goal post from "Where does it say in the Bible to have a relationship with Jesus" to "Where is the gospel described as have a relationship with Jesus" and now you want to deny your own words, because I called you on it, and go back to your original "Where in the Bible does it say have a relationship with Jesus" when you already conceded that point.

That said, Jesus told the goats "I never knew you." He didn't say "I didn't die for you." He didn't say "I didn't atone for you." He didn't say "You are not part of the elect." He said "I never knew you."
 
I don't see why you call it an attempt at an argument. I don't claim that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. But Jmdrake said no Christians before Constantine dated the birth of Jesus to Dec. 25. And Julius Africanus did so (I think) 100 years before Constantine.

You know what? You're right. Africanus was prior to Constantine. And I looked it up. He did date the conception to March 25th. So unless TER posted this earlier, you've got the prize for being the first one to post an actual pre-Constantine reference that would put Jesus birth anywhere near December 25. I will concede that point.
 
And here is proof of your lying Sola_Fide. You admit that RJB posted what is clearly "relational language" when talking about a relationship with Jesus. But then you shifted the goal post from "Where does it say in the Bible to have a relationship with Jesus" to "Where is the gospel described as have a relationship with Jesus" and now you want to deny your own words, because I called you on it, and go back to your original "Where in the Bible does it say have a relationship with Jesus" when you already conceded that point.

That said, Jesus told the goats "I never knew you." He didn't say "I didn't die for you." He didn't say "I didn't atone for you." He didn't say "You are not part of the elect." He said "I never knew you."

Another response with no verse that says "have a relationship with Jesus".

You are going to prove me wrong sometime soon, right?
 
Another response with no verse that says "have a relationship with Jesus".

You are going to prove me wrong sometime soon, right?

If you don't understand that Jesus telling people "I never knew you" before sending them to hell is saying "have a relationship with Jesus" then you have a spiritual blindness that I cannot cure.
 
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Ter, you seem to have brought up this entire thread just to wallow in your own beliefs (SELF).

It's not about MY personal beliefs. It about what the beliefs were of the Christians WAY before me and which have been faithfully handed down. And the belief that Christ was born on December 25th is an ancient belief from the days when Christians had to hide from the Roman State authorities. It is not my personal belief (which would mean nothing), but rather has been held by the Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, and the Protestant Church. So it is not to wallow in my anything, but to counter the lies of atheists and historical revisionists who deceptively distort the truths of the origins of this important Christian feast.
 
If you don't understand that Jesus telling people "I never knew you" before sending them to hell is saying "have a relationship with Jesus" then you have a spiritual blindness that I cannot cure.

Just some thoughts I have on this, probably not that either of you wuld be 100% on board with.

I agree that there is certainly a concept of relationship in the text you mention. I also agree that just because gospel preaching does not use the same TERMS that the Apostles used makes it false. I'd agree that its better to use Biblical terminology but if you're preaching the true concept just less precisely I don't think that makes you a false teacher (of course it takes wisdom to tell the difference between the real thing and a false thing.)

That said, if you're making "Christ wants to have a relationship with you, all you have to do is accept it" the gospel itself, that's a false gospel. Because the gospel includes such concepts as imputation, legal-guilt being paid for, justification through faith ALONE and by grace ALONE, etc.

I'm sympathetic to Sola's point because modern evangelicalism is pathetic AND it doesn't use Biblical terms. Why would we want to steal the termnology of an emotionalistic and sub-biblical movement rather than just use the Biblical terms?

That said, its undeniably true that anyone who believes in Christ Christ will have a relationship with.
 
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