Was America founded on Judeo-Christian Principles? Of Course it was!

[micahnelson]

How do I mock them?

By making us look like the type of people who want to use the moderate religious beliefs of some of our founders as an excuse to lock up gays.

The overwhelming majority were right handed, shall we lock up the southpaws?

 

[Deborah K]

By making us look like the type of people who want to use the moderate religious beliefs of some of our founders as an excuse to lock up gays.

The overwhelming majority were right handed, shall we lock up the southpaws?

uhhh......what?

 

[Deborah K]

Here is Ron Paul's take on this subject: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/?tag=Religion

 

[Theocrat]

Excuse Me

By making us look like the type of people who want to use the moderate religious beliefs of some of our founders as an excuse to lock up gays.

The overwhelming majority were right handed, shall we lock up the southpaws?

That's quite an overexaggeration there. The point of this forum thread is to educate, debate, and set the record straight on the truth of America's Christian heritage against the parasitic notions of the many God-haters in this country who would eat away at the roots by which our nation became great in its Providential beginnings.

 

[Kade]

That's quite an overexaggeration there. The point of this forum thread is to educate, debate, and set the record straight on the truth of America's Christian heritage against the parasitic notions of the many God-haters in this country who would eat away at the roots by which our nation became great in its Providential beginnings.

No, it's not.

From Reason:

"Rev. Jerry Falwell wrote an article which criticized Christian Reconstructionism, the influential movement led by theologian Rousas John (R.J.) Rushdoony, for advocating positions that even they as committed fundamentalists found "scary." Among Reconstructionism's highlights, the article cited support for laws "mandating the death penalty for homosexuals and drunkards." The Rev. Rushdoony fired off a letter to the editor complaining that the article had got his followers' views all wrong: They didn't intend to put drunkards to death."

In Institutes of Biblical Law, Rushdoony very clearly outlines the type of law this country should have, a biblical law.

You have defended this position from day one Theocrat.

 

[Kade]

Here is Ron Paul's take on this subject: http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/?tag=Religion

I keep forgetting nobody else's opinion matters. My first post on these forums was about a specific writing he made, http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759/christmas-in-secular-america/ and how absolutely incorrect this view was.

 

[Deborah K]

I keep forgetting nobody else's opinion matters. My first post on these forums was about a specific writing he made, http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/759/christmas-in-secular-america/ and how absolutely incorrect this view was.

As usual you misconstrue the point. Show me where I stated that "nobody else's opinion matters." The one thing we have in common is our support for Ron Paul. It is fitting to provide his own words on the matter.

 

[Theocrat]

You Have Some Nerve

No, it's not.

From Reason:

"Rev. Jerry Falwell wrote an article which criticized Christian Reconstructionism, the influential movement led by theologian Rousas John (R.J.) Rushdoony, for advocating positions that even they as committed fundamentalists found "scary." Among Reconstructionism's highlights, the article cited support for laws "mandating the death penalty for homosexuals and drunkards." The Rev. Rushdoony fired off a letter to the editor complaining that the article had got his followers' views all wrong: They didn't intend to put drunkards to death."

In Institutes of Biblical Law, Rushdoony very clearly outlines the type of law this country should have, a biblical law.

You have defended this position from day one Theocrat.

I'm not ashamed to be a "Christian Reconstructionist," but I've not tried to defend those views on this forum thread. I'm simply in agreement with those like Deborah K, familydog, and others that our nation has a heavy and influential Christian religious founding. I've not once brought up what the penalty for gays has been, what the status of our nation's laws should be, or anything of that nature on this thread. By the way, Jerry Falwell didn't know his Bible very well, being the liberal Christian he was. Maybe if he picked up the Scriptures more than he did his Dunkin' Donuts, he, too, would've become a great "Christian Reconstructionist."

The problem with people like you in these forums, Kade, is that you like to jump around issues and go on tangents when you disagree with an issue. It has been proven over and over again in this forum thread that America has Christian roots with documented evidence by others such as Deborah K, but you simply refuse to believe it. Now, you're talking about my "Christian Reconstructionist" beliefs, which I have not brought up once in this thread rather than deal with the propositions in the House Resolution I posted. So, now I'm curious, Kade. What's your motive, and what're you trying to prove now in this thread discussion?

 

[Kade]

I'm not ashamed to be a "Christian Reconstructionist," but I've not tried to defend those views on this forum thread. I'm simply in agreement with those like Deborah K, familydog, and others that our nation has a heavy and influential Christian religious founding. I've not once brought up what the penalty for gays has been, what the status of our nation's laws should be, or anything of that nature on this thread. By the way, Jerry Falwell didn't know his Bible very well, being the liberal Christian he was. Maybe if he picked up the Scriptures more than he did his Dunkin' Donuts, he, too, would've become a great "Christian Reconstructionist."

The problem with people like you in these forums, Kade, is that you like to jump around issues and go on tangents when you disagree with an issue. It has been proven over and over again in this forum thread that America has Christian roots with documented evidence by others such as Deborah K, but you simply refuse to believe it. Now, you're talking about my "Christian Reconstructionist" beliefs, which I have not brought up once in this thread rather than deal with the propositions in the House Resolution I posted. So, now I'm curious, Kade. What's your motive, and what're you trying to prove now in this thread discussion?

1. Which documents created this country?
2. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded as a CHRISTIAN nation?
3. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on CHRISTIAN principles?

It's not that I'm not listening... you are just wrong. The evidence you provide is really a laundry list of gibberish. The salient points are that which matter most, and that is that this country was created for many reasons, one of which was the escape of persecution...

George Washington, who arguably had the most weight in ultimately creating the country, based entirely on the fact that he controlled the army, and was even offered a crown wrote to Moses Seixas of the Touro Synagogue in Newport, RI:

To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island.

Gentlemen,

While I receive, with much satisfaction, your Address replete with expressions of affection and esteem; I rejoice in the opportunity of assuring you, that I shall always retain a grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced in my visit to Newport, from all classes of Citizens.

The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past is rendered the more sweet, from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security. If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good Government, to become a great and happy people.

The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent national gifts. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

G. Washington

 

[Kade]

So our nation and her laws were founded on these principles:


Deuteronomy 29:19-20
If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart," Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him.

Jeremiah 48:10 (NIV)
"Cursed be he who does the Lord's work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood."

Revelation 2:22-23
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."


Exodus 35:2-3 (NLT)
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

Exodus 31:14-15 (NLT)
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

(2 Corinthians 10:5)
"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Kings 18:27 (KJV)
"Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

Acts 5:29
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!"


These principles?

Should I go on... because, I promise I can.

 

[Deborah K]

1. Which documents created this country?
2. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded as a CHRISTIAN nation?
3. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on CHRISTIAN principles?

additional quote from Kade:

Alright, my entire point comes to this...

Judeo-Christian "values" are completely void of any useful original philosophical thought. Commonly, the Ten Commandments are considered part of this value system. Anything adapted from ancient Judaism into Christianity... although the word really didn't exist before the 1890s.

The motivation behind the creation of our country were mostly enlightenment principles. These were influenced by many people, not excluding Burke, Hobbes, Locke, Spinoza, Hume, Kant, Voltaire, Rousseau, and Adam Smith...etc. Our most cherished founding fathers, who wrote the MOST important documents leading up to and within the creation of this beautiful nation, were HIGHLY influenced by these Principles... these founders include:

Hamilton, Adams, Madison, Mason, Franklin, Paine, and Jefferson.

Enlightenment Principles:

Popular Sovereignty
Natural Rights
Liberty
Reductionism
Rationalism
Anti-superstition
Tolerance
Pantheism/Deism
Reason as Basis of Authority
Progressive




Now, your insistence that somehow this nation was founded on the very antithesis of the principles of this nation are absolutely ridiculous.

That you use criminally retarded individuals to further the useless point, is itself, inexcusably ignorant.

And to the above I ask you your own questions:

2. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on an enlightenment nation?
3. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on enlightenment principles?

And here again is my response to your second quote above:

I actually like what you wrote there, Kade, and I agree with most of it - except for the obvious exclusion of Judeo-Christian principles. Your complete denial of this reveals much about your own agenda as an atheist. It is the very reason I wrote this thread in the first place. And you have just proven my point.

I have put forth an argument that is substantiated by research. The fact that you have categorically ignored the research leads me to the conclusion that you have no way to refute what I'm contending other than to disparage one of my sources. You keep bringing up Barton to the exclusion of Lutz's writings and research, as well as other scholars who have cited Lutz's work in their own works. This speaks volumes as to the weakness of your argument.

And here is more on Lutz:


http://www.polsci.uh.edu/faculty/vita/Donald Lutz.htm

Here is : “The Relative Influence of European Writers on Late Eighteenth Century American Political Thought” American Political Science Review

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=000...rigin=crossref

Another book written by several scholars that uses the above as a source: http://books.google.com/books?id=QkUliRcSJXwC

and here is where they use the source: http://books.google.com/books?id=QkU...l=en#PPA256,M1

Here is his book and an abstract of it: Donald Lutz, The Origins of American Constitutionalism 1988
http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Americ.../dp/0807115061

 

[Deborah K]

So our nation and her laws were founded on these principles:


Deuteronomy 29:19-20
If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart," Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him.

Jeremiah 48:10 (NIV)
"Cursed be he who does the Lord's work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood."

Revelation 2:22-23
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."


Exodus 35:2-3 (NLT)
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

Exodus 31:14-15 (NLT)
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

(2 Corinthians 10:5)
"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Kings 18:27 (KJV)
"Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

Acts 5:29
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!"


These principles?

Should I go on... because, I promise I can.

Have you resorted to cherry-picking quotes from the bible to make your point? LOL!

 

[Kade]

Have you resorted to cherry-picking quotes from the bible to make your point? LOL!

I don't know a single person who doesn't.

 

[Kade]

additional quote from Kade:



And to the above I ask you your own questions:

2. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on an enlightenment nation?
3. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on enlightenment principles?

And here again is my response to your second quote above:



And here is more on Lutz:


http://www.polsci.uh.edu/faculty/vita/Donald Lutz.htm

Here is : “The Relative Influence of European Writers on Late Eighteenth Century American Political Thought” American Political Science Review

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=000...rigin=crossref

Another book written by several scholars that uses the above as a source: http://books.google.com/books?id=QkUliRcSJXwC

and here is where they use the source: http://books.google.com/books?id=QkU...l=en#PPA256,M1

Here is his book and an abstract of it: Donald Lutz, The Origins of American Constitutionalism 1988
http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Americ.../dp/0807115061

Okay, let's get to be meat of this... if you agree that the principles I've mentioned are what the nation was founded on, and you believe strongly that those principles are Christian principles, we are just playing word games.

If you intend to use your definition of Christian principles to change the law to unmentioned principles, the problem arises... does that make sense?

If you say that Christan doctrine preaches freedom of conscience, fine.
If you say that Christian doctrine preaches freedom of thought, fine.
If you say that Christian doctrine preaches freedom of expression, fine.

If you suggest that because you believe Christian doctrine teaches these things that we ought to place ALL Christian doctrine as the foundation on this country, I draw the line... in fact, those are words worthy of a rebellion.

So you can attribute all the good things about our nation to Christianity, but the second you try to impose one of the many and numerous bad things, Theocrat's ideology being a perfect example of one of those things, than you have crossed the line.

I don't personally agree with you. I've studied your religion all my life, and I have a theology degree. I believe there was a strong division between a liberal and progressive vision of the enlightenment and revealed Christian doctrine. You can disagree, and you can give Christianity any value system it wants, it is fair to say that you could justify just about anything with the bible.

Application of whatever implied principle you are employing here is the heart of all this. Theocrat wants to see a real life Theocracy. People like him are not rare. Some Christians, many of my own family, worship in their communities, do great charity work, contribute meaningfully to work and the community and life. They believe in "live and let live", and they see no desire to impose a biblical worldview on people. They may believe in certain changes to the government, but often they are equally compelled by the realization that some people simply don't believe what they do... but they believe strongly in the doctrine of separation of church and state, because it is fair to all.

It is important to note that the principles set forth by the founding fathers, the spirit of Jefferson, Washington, and Madison, uniformly was one of neutrality and fairness, and ultimately freedom and liberty. You may say these things exist in the bible, and therefore we ought to use the bible in law and I could suggest we should just govern with Origin of Species, and we could go back and forth forever... or we could both say, you know what, I'm okay with what you believe, and I'll protect fiercely your right to believe it... and that principle doesn't have to be written down. That principle is in our hearts, and it has been chiseled upon the spirit of America.

 

[Theocrat]

Reading and Weeping

1. Which documents created this country?
2. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded as a CHRISTIAN nation?
3. Where in those documents does it say that this nation is founded on CHRISTIAN principles?

Well, if you had read the H. Res. 888, you would already know the answers to those questions, Kade.

So our nation and her laws were founded on these principles:


Deuteronomy 29:19-20
If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart," Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him.

Jeremiah 48:10 (NIV)
"Cursed be he who does the Lord's work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood."

Revelation 2:22-23
"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."


Exodus 35:2-3 (NLT)
"For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death. Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

Exodus 31:14-15 (NLT)
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

(2 Corinthians 10:5)
"We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

2 Kings 18:27 (KJV)
"Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

Acts 5:29
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men!"


These principles?

Should I go on... because, I promise I can.

This is your problem, Kade. You like to take things in the Bible out of their proper contexts, and to what avail? You obviously have no understanding of the differences between the "letter of the law" and "the spirit of the law." Besides, I find it silly that you would even quote the Bible as if you're trying to prove something when, on your worldview, you don't even believe God exists and He has revealed Himself to mankind. As Deborah K has said, your cherry-picking of the Scriptures is simply funny.

 

[Deborah K]

Okay, let's get to be meat of this... if you agree that the principles I've mentioned are what the nation was founded on, and you believe strongly that those principles are Christian principles, we are just playing word games.

If you intend to use your definition of Christian principles to change the law to unmentioned principles, the problem arises... does that make sense?

If you say that Christan doctrine preaches freedom of conscience, fine.
If you say that Christian doctrine preaches freedom of thought, fine.
If you say that Christian doctrine preaches freedom of expression, fine.

If you suggest that because you believe Christian doctrine teaches these things that we ought to place ALL Christian doctrine as the foundation on this country, I draw the line... in fact, those are words worthy of a rebellion.

So you can attribute all the good things about our nation to Christianity, but the second you try to impose one of the many and numerous bad things, Theocrat's ideology being a perfect example of one of those things, than you have crossed the line.

I don't personally agree with you. I've studied your religion all my life, and I have a theology degree. I believe there was a strong division between a liberal and progressive vision of the enlightenment and revealed Christian doctrine. You can disagree, and you can give Christianity any value system it wants, it is fair to say that you could justify just about anything with the bible.

Application of whatever implied principle you are employing here is the heart of all this. Theocrat wants to see a real life Theocracy. People like him are not rare. Some Christians, many of my own family, worship in their communities, do great charity work, contribute meaningfully to work and the community and life. They believe in "live and let live", and they see no desire to impose a biblical worldview on people. They may believe in certain changes to the government, but often they are equally compelled by the realization that some people simply don't believe what they do... but they believe strongly in the doctrine of separation of church and state, because it is fair to all.

It is important to note that the principles set forth by the founding fathers, the spirit of Jefferson, Washington, and Madison, uniformly was one of neutrality and fairness, and ultimately freedom and liberty. You may say these things exist in the bible, and therefore we ought to use the bible in law and I could suggest we should just govern with Origin of Species, and we could go back and forth forever... or we could both say, you know what, I'm okay with what you believe, and I'll protect fiercely your right to believe it... and that principle doesn't have to be written down. That principle is in our hearts, and it has been chiseled upon the spirit of America.

Your unfounded assumptions divert from the original intent of the thread.

....and you believe strongly that those principles are Christian principles, we are just playing word games.

I agree that the founders were interested in and influenced by the enlightenment era, however that does not preclude a Christian influence. My point in that post was to expose your blatant exclusion of Christian influence on the founding of this nation.

If you intend to use your definition of Christian principles to change the law to unmentioned principles, the problem arises... does that make sense?

Show me what post I wrote that would lead you to that conclusion.

If you suggest that because you believe Christian doctrine teaches these things that we ought to place ALL Christian doctrine as the foundation on this country, I draw the line... in fact, those are words worthy of a rebellion.

What the hell? How can you draw that conclusion from ANYTHING I've written????

You are clearly trying to imply that because I believe that, and have given evidence to, the fact that our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles that somehow you can turn that into an assertion on my part that the country was therefore founded on Christian doctrine. As a theology major, you should know the difference between the words "principles" and "doctrine".

Again, your complete denial of my assertion speaks for itself. The evidence is at hand and no amount of wordsmithing or distortion that you attempt to put forth will change any of it.

Christians settled in this nation, fought for her freedom and wrote the founding documents. People who refuse to accept it are only revealing their fear and contempt for Christianity.

 

[Theocrat]

And All the Church Said...

Christians settled in this nation, fought for her freedom and wrote the founding documents. People who refuse to accept it are only revealing their fear and contempt for Christianity.

Amen!

 

[Deborah K]

... or we could both say, you know what, I'm okay with what you believe, and I'll protect fiercely your right to believe it... and that principle doesn't have to be written down. That principle is in our hearts, and it has been chiseled upon the spirit of America.

This is great. But again, this isn't about what I or you believe, this is about history. We each don't get to have our own set of history books. Either this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles or it wasn't. The study I put forth revealed, using 15,000 writings, that the founders quoted from the bible more often than they quoted from other sources. That ,along with the fact that most Americans during that era were practising Christians, would lead most clear thinking individuals to the conclusion that we were founded on Christian principles.

 

[micahnelson]

Christians settled in this nation, fought for her freedom and wrote the founding documents. People who refuse to accept it are only revealing their fear and contempt for Christianity.

The key question is, so what?

Christians overwhelmingly voted for George W. Bush. Many Slave owners were Christians, and the Bible addresses the righteous manner in which to treat slaves.

Again, so what?

Did members of other faiths not own slaves, vote for the Bushes, fight for freedom, or settle in this nation? Let us not be so vain to think that the American experience is a Christian experience. The American experience is one of equality under the law.

You believe that people who undermine the truth of America's Christian founding do so with a purpose in mind, to strip Christianity from American culture. What then is the purpose of affirming it? Are we wrong to assume that this attempt to turn Washington into a Southern Baptist doesn't come with similar strings attached?

Are nonbelievers to be made to feel second class, aliens in a country of the devout?

If you want to claim America for Christendom, then you cannot separate the evils of slavery, mistreatment of the Indians, the Salem witch trials, the civil war atrocities, or any other element of American history from the Religion you claim established our nation.

Are you willing to stain Christianity with those indiscretions simply out of an urge to claim precedence?

Religion has no place in government, other than in the hearts of the individuals that run for office. Religion may guide their choices, and often does, but this is not to be misconstrued as anything more than a private expression of faith.

Only failed ideologies need government subsidies, why should we run to the government to defend our God? Morality is in decline not because of the federal government, but because of a religion that has lost it's soul.

James 1:26-27 tells us that our religion can be worthless if it doesn't impact our own lives.

Look at the percentage of Christians in prison or giving up on their own marriages, all while we fight for tougher laws and legislating "traditional marriage". Our religion has become worthless- it isn't even impacting US.

Here is what God says about worthless religion, from Amos 5.

18 Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD,
For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;
19 As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.
20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it?
21 “I hate, I reject your festivals,
Nor do I delight in your solemn assemblies.
22 “Even though you offer up to Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings,
I will not accept them;
And I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fatlings.
23 “Take away from Me the noise of your songs;
I will not even listen to the sound of your harps.
24 “But let justice roll down like waters
And righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.

SO have your symbolic votes in congress affirming how wonderful we are. Have your gay marriage ban while you cheat on your wife. Pass every law in the books establishing a Christian theocracy and watch as society crumbles before your very eyes. We are losing this spiritual war because we are fighting it on the wrong terms. This is not a battle for government, this is a battle for souls.

Im sorry if I sound extreme, but I am tired of this symbolic posturing by believers. The problem is not in Washington, it is in our churches. We have all become duped. We have rejected grace and are clinging again to the law. We want war and authoritarianism in the name of justice.

And a word on theocracy, that system of government led to the death sentence for Jesus. He was called a blasphemer.

 

[sophocles07]

What the hell? How can you draw that conclusion from ANYTHING I've written????

I think one should note that in the back of my mind (and probably Kade’s) is that we’re arguing against one member here (Theocrat) who actually does advocate theocracy.

Christians settled in this nation, fought for her freedom and wrote the founding documents. People who refuse to accept it are only revealing their fear and contempt for Christianity.

What exactly are you wanting here? I think Kade’s admitted that Christianity had “an impact” on the founding of the country. He’s saying that Enlightenment philosophy the most important factor—a fact I can’t see any reason to disagree with. The enlightenment gave rise to new interpretations of the Christian religion, and produced the potential of a death to orthodoxy. Are you advocating no separation between church and state, or what?

Either this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles or it wasn't.

OR

it’s not that simple.

“Judeo-Christian” principles means any number of things based on who is doing the interpreting, as I’ve stated before in this thread. It’s not an absolute. What Jefferson took from Christianity was not the same as what Aquinas—who supported monarchy, and thought it was divine-right—took from it. The same goes for Adams, Madison, or whomever. To reduce this extremely complex issue to “CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES, FUCK DUHH!” or “NO CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES, ...” is just a pitiful execution of historical interpretation.

The study I put forth revealed, using 15,000 writings, that the founders quoted from the bible more often than they quoted from other sources.

This means very little. Context is the matter. The same could be said of Nietzsche, the writer of The Anti-Christ. He probably quotes the Bible more than anything else; it doesn’t mean his writings were based in “Judeo-Christian principles.” Jefferson quotes it all the time; he didn’t have the same Christianity in mind that Pope Leo the Great did.