Wars Against Ideologies

[driller80545]

What questions have not been answered?

 

[rpfan2008]

... bankrupted the Soviet Union while hardly affecting us. That was one of the coercive measures I referred to....

wha...

 

[rpfan2008]

... bankrupted the Soviet Union while hardly affecting us. That was one of the coercive measures I referred to....

Very true, you are really very -educated and -thoughtful. We need people like you to feel blessed.

Btw in the quote in your sig are you comparing the ~1000,000 Iraqis or the 10,000,000 vietnamese (man/woman/children)with animals. Are you in these forums with some other name too?

And lastly if you are handy with the internet search, you will easily find pics of Rockefellers(on bussiness trip to russia) with Nikita Khruschchev . They funded both sides. If any of the above words don't make any sense to you; skip(learning), don't take too much trouble(investigating), its bad for you and your thoughts. Because you know lies work, you can easily take that stance.

 

[constituent]

The remaining communist nations after the Soviet Union fell were isolationistic and not bent on a "global revolution". They were merely groups of people intent of retaining authority in their own countries.

You seem to be suffering from the failed notion that the USA is anything other than a "communist nation... bent on a 'global revolution.'"

 

[constituent]

Er, in the sixties we had detente, and in the 70s Carter. It WAS Reagan in the 80s who engineered the massive arms race which bankrupted the Soviet Union.

Of course the ideology intended to be defeated (NOT destroyed) is not national culture. It is the political and jingoistic sections that deserve countering.

And, why is it that I answer all the questions addressed to me, but you all do not answer questions I address to you? I honestly would be interested in the responses.

reagan invented "mutually assured destruction?" i thought that was circa 1953 or somewhere thereabouts.

please elaborate on that point.

...and another important thing you are missing here.

it was morally reprehensible for Reagan to deprive individuals of their hard-earned wealth (through taxation) to hand it over to other (military contractor) entities in order to fight for or against an ideology of which he (on the surface) claimed to loathe.

The money spent on the "arms race" was not his to spend.

What is the net positive of fighting one "ideology" or form of tyranny just to replace it with another?

 

[ARealConservative]

why beat around the bush neo-con?

Let's get to the meat. How did our oil get under their sand, and what are we going to do about it?

 

[Zeichen]

What questions have not been answered?
I apologize. I was just temporarily frustrated because I wanted to know whether, if I provided hard examples of an ideology being defeated, you all would agree that it was possible. I will in any case provide a list of such cases later on, when I've got more time.

rpfan2008, disputing my claim that we were hardly affected by the Cold War buildup.
Military spending during Reagan's time, at its highest point, was 6% of the GDP ()http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=2966. That is large, yes, but is very little in relative terms of national expenditure. It was 1/6 the % of our 1945 spending. I am not saying that we did not spend a lot, but merely that our national system was not greatly disrupted, as the Soviet Union's was. We actually emerged OUT of economic hardship, and had a great boom time, during this marked increase in military funding. Based on all the data, America managed to bankrupt the Soviet Union, while sacrificing little of our lifestyle.

And your graph does not show a strong correlation between dramatically increased debt and increased military expenditure. From the start of World War two, through the early seventies, our defense spending was significantly larger than that of the Reagan days. Yet the dramatic debt increase began with Reagan term. So his lesser military funding caused much more debt. Even more interesting, from the end of the Cold War till now, our military expenditure as percentage of GDP has been far lower than Cold War days, yet the debt has increased even faster. (http://www.heritage.org/research/features/BudgetChartBook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-S7-Despite-War-Costs-Defense.html)

So, more military funding does not equal more debt, according to the data.

rpfan2008, saying that my sig quote equates the millions of dead with animals.
No, the quote was in reference to the need of self-defense (from Ender's Game). Better I know how to kill, than not, and be killed myself. Libertarians support the right of self-defense, right?

rpfan2008, saying that businessmen funding both sides somehow negates my declaration that the Cold War bankrupted the Soviet Union
So, a rich businessman decided to get rich by selling materials to both sides of the war. Okay. The fact remains, the war exhausted the Soviet Union to the point of collapse, while not disrupting our institutions or means of continuing the conflict.

constituent, declaring that we are already a communist nations exporting militant communist belief
America is going further left, more than I would like, and obviously far more than you desire. However, be reasonable. We are nowhere near the state of Communist Russia, or such nations.

constituent, declaring that i claimed Reagan created MAD.
Where did I say that? I didn't. I merely stated that Carter led a time of relatively little military expenditure, and Reagan ramped it up strongly, and forced the Soviets to follow in an attempt to maintain parity. It was not just missiles, but the entire spectrum of warfare, diplomacy, and economics.

constituent, declaring that it is not the government's responsibility to use taxes to fight a conflict
It is debatable whether the Cold War was right. If you don't think it was, I won't be able to convince you. Regardless, since the days of Washington, when he led twenty thousand men to crush the Whiskey Rebellion, the government has taken action to defend the country in ways it thinks necessary. Alexander Hamilton, his Secretary of the Treasury, was the one who advocated creating a federally funded federal army. As the costs of government increased, and needed more taxes, of course the funding for this military would then be partially funded by the taxpayers.

 

[Kraig]

Uh, what about China? Communism is alive and well.

Not to mention the USSR is a horrible example if you want to talk about using military to defeat an idealology. It was ultimately an economic war with some fighting here and there.

So, fan of violence eh?

 

[Zeichen]

Just a quick response, but...

Read what I already posted, please.

Militant expansionist communism was defeated. The Chinese, by mere virtue of communist ideals, are no threat to America. They abandoned the conflict/militant Communism, and merely use their current bastardization of communism as a means of retaining authority. The strongly-backed ideology of global revolution, of coups and revolutions wherever the proletariat were oppressed, died with the Soviet Union.

Then in reference to the fall of the Soviet Union, I said in the OP, "through a combination of coercive measures", or, as I repeated later, "As I stated in the OP, a mixture of coercive measures were used to render the militant communist ideology ineffective." And I have already strongly emphasized throughout this thread the economic/diplomatic pressures that led to the downfall of the Soviet Union.

 

[Truth Warrior]

I have read 1984, discussed it with my comparative politics teacher, analyzed the book extensively, and written a paper on it. I know the content and message.

Anyways... You all don't seem to be completely understanding the point of this thread. My apologies if I was not clear in the OP.

I am NOT asking, "Is it possible to eradicate all belief in an ideology?" I am asking, "Is it possible to so cripple an ideology that it can no longer be a danger?" Not eradicate, but defeat.

"Statism" ideology, at least 6,000 years old, still dangerous and going strong.

Ideas? Suggestions? Anyone? ANYONE? ANYONE!

Oops! Sorry I forgot, WRONG CROWD (FLOCK!)! :o

 

[Grimnir Wotansvolk]

Turn them into a minority, and tie them to some catastrophic event.

IE: White nationalism will most likely forever stay by the wayside, as it has the Holocaust hanging over its head.

 

[Zeichen]

A whole realm of thought, such as conservatism or statism, or leftism, cannot be destroyed, but even that can be suppressed and kept weak, if a specific government takes action, which some have.

I am just saying that specific ideologies, such as Hitler's National Socialism, the radical militant Communism, the god-King system of many ancient kingdoms (Persians, as one example), or the Emperor Worship of World War Two Japan, can be defeated or held to a situation where they cannot or will not interfere with others.

 

[Truth Warrior]

A whole realm of thought, such as conservatism or statism, or leftism, cannot be destroyed, but even that can be suppressed and kept weak, if a specific government takes action, which some have.

I am just saying that specific ideologies, such as Hitler's National Socialism, the radical militant Communism, the god-King system of many ancient kingdoms (Persians, as one example), or the Emperor Worship of World War Two Japan, can be defeated or held to a situation where they cannot or will not interfere with others.

The predictable demise turn of the US government "EMPIRE" WILL also come!

 

[driller80545]

That was the entire basis of Reagan's buildup. He challenged the Soviets on every front, and forced them into an arms race. Our economy was far superior, so that bankrupted the Soviet Union while hardly affecting us. That was one of the coercive measures I referred to.

If I go and give a list of cases in which ideologies have been defeated, would you all admit it is possible? And you all have still not identified what you claim an ideology is.

blah, blah, blah
Are you attempting to justify PNAC. What is your point?

 

[AmericaFyeah92]

A whole realm of thought, such as conservatism or statism, or leftism, cannot be destroyed, but even that can be suppressed and kept weak, if a specific government takes action, which some have.

I am just saying that specific ideologies, such as Hitler's National Socialism, the radical militant Communism, the god-King system of many ancient kingdoms (Persians, as one example), or the Emperor Worship of World War Two Japan, can be defeated or held to a situation where they cannot or will not interfere with others.

what are you trying to get at?

this is common knowledge.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Lets say hypothetically a war is started to rid the world of all those who hold a certain ideology.

First thing when the war starts, you outrage and embolden all of those who hold that ideology, along with people who are neutral in the war. So you have writers, propagandists, martyrs, etc all feeding this ideology faster then ever due to the "injustice" of this silly war. Those who are neutral in the war will wonder "what is so wrong with this idea that is has to be completely annihilated", and feel sympathy for the persecuted ideologues.

I'm really only referring to public, all out war against an ideology here.

Seriously flawed ideologies tend to destroy themselves anyways, for at least a little while until people forget how flawed it is.

 

[Zeichen]

what are you trying to get at?

this is common knowledge.

haha. That is the exact point I was discussing with said Ron Paul supporter, in the OP. He disagreed with what you just said was "common sense". He told me to come here, and discuss it with you all.

And it seems that some here do not agree with you and me. Some seem to think that these ideologies cannot be defeated, without total obliteration.

And no, I was not saying America should conquer or anything. I am not justifying PNAC. Just trying to clarify this point, that ideologies can, theoretically, be reasonably defeated by coercive means.

 

[randolphfuller]

worshipful infatuation with Ronald Reagan is terribly crrippling, but it must be gotttenrid of before progress can begin. Worship of war, war preparation, the professional military, fawning on the military-industrial comples are even more damaging.I am not certain when right wingers were more offensive--when fighting godless Soviet Communism or their new bogeyman Islamo Fascism. Good luck. You have a long way to go.

 

[driller80545]

I sure would like to figure out how to supress or obliterate the neo con ideology!

 

[SeanEdwards]

Monkeys can be trained to do practically anything.