[Video] Fractional Reserve Banking is NOT Fraud

Wow. people on thiso board are still arguing that a single bank can loan out 10 times its deposits.

This is completely erroneous. A bank must keep a percentage on reserve. That's why they're called reserves.

If the reserve rate is 10% percent and you deposit 10$ the bank keeps a dollar on reserve and loans out nine.

NOT 100.

I provided this link previously just for folks like yourself with an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of FRB. Please review:

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-7-money-creation
 
A free market would terminate FRB immediately and with extreme prejudice.

If you look into the history of FRB it is inextricable from central banking. You cannot plausibly consider FRB in the absence of central banking because no such thing exists, or has ever existed.

This country has had fractional reserve banking from the start, with or without a central bank. Of course, it wasn't a free market in banking either, as the government told everyone who was defrauded to go fuck themselves when a failed bank could not redeem their deposits.
 
I provided this link previously just for folks like yourself with an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of FRB. Please review:

http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-7-money-creation

Your link proves my point. Thanks.

No. A bank does not lend out 10X its deposits given a 10% reserve rate. It lends out 90%.

You think if I deposit 1,000,000 then the bank lends out 10,000,000 to the next customer? What happens when that customer deposits his loan into the next bank? And the next? After four depositers my 1,000,000 loan turns into a billion dollar loan? Can you even imagine the inflation such a system would produce?

You've got it wrong friend. Read your link again.
 
For example, Check Kiting, Writing bad checks doesn't get you in trouble until one can't be cashed, same here.

My argument is the action is not a fraud until one of two things occur:

1) You enter a contract with no intention of honoring it

or

2) You are not able to meet that obligation


So again if I write a bad check knowing full well it will bounce, fraud

If I Write a check and it bounces, I can be in trouble, but a bank doesn't take action agaist every check bouncer

We're clearly using two different definitions of check counting. Just accidentally bouncing a check is not check kiting. At least not my understanding of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_kiting
Check kiting is the illegal act of taking advantage of the float to make use of non-existent funds in a checking or other bank account; it is a form of check fraud. It is commonly defined as intentionally writing a check for a value greater than the account balance from an account in one bank, then writing a check from another account in another bank, also with non-sufficient funds, with the second check serving to cover the non-existent funds from the first account.[1] The purpose of check kiting is to falsely inflate the balance of a checking account in order to allow written checks that would otherwise bounce to clear.[2] If the account is not planned to be replenished, then the fraud is known as paper hanging instead. If writing a check with non-sufficient funds is done with the expectation that they will be covered by payday – in effect a payday loan – this is called playing the float.

The intent is the key, not the fact that it bounced.
 
A bank does not lend out 10X its deposits given a 10% reserve rate. It lends out 90%.

You think if I deposit 1,000,000 then the bank lends out 10,000,000 to the next customer?

Where in the link provided does it say that 10X is loaned out by a single bank in a single loan? That's not what it said at all.

From that link:

Since any bank can loan out up to 90%, the bank in our example manages to locate a single individual that wants to borrow $900.

This borrower then spends that money by giving it to another person, perhaps his accountant, who, in turn, deposits it in a bank. Now it could be the same bank, or a different bank, but that really doesn’t change how this story gets told at all.

With this new deposit, the bank has a fresh $900 to work with, and so it gets busy finding somebody who wants to borrow 90% of that amount, or $810.

And so another loan, this time for $810, is made, which gets spent and redeposited in the bank, meaning that a brand new, fresh deposit of $810 is available to loan against. So the bank loans out out 90% of $810, or $729, and so it goes, until we finally discover that the original $1000 deposit has mushroomed into a total of $10,000.

Nobody - not thoughtomator nor Chris Martenson (the link provided) claimed that a single bank was loaning out 10X its deposits in a single loan, nor is that how the fractional reserve multiplier works. Only 90% of what is deposited is loaned out, that is true. Then rinse and repeat, because when that money is redeposited (into any bank - it could be the same bank), that deposit (different claims established on the same money) counts toward the bank's reserve and can also be loaned out as well - and so on, until you approach the theoretical limits of the multiplier (up to 10X aggregate total, with multiple claims established on the original deposit).
 
Everyone who thinks FRB operators are printing money with FRB lending confuse reserves with liabilities and that's all there is to it. Yes their balance sheet grows but that doesn't mean they are creating money. A $1000 can inflate the balance sheet to $10,000 but the reserves remain $1000 and if all that $10,000 was attempted to be withdrawn there'd be only $1000 of actual money available.

The only problem is our paradigm of central banking as lender of last resorts that actually prints money if all that $10,000 was attempted to be withdrawn and the monopoly on violence that is the government that ensures the deposits which both wrongly leaves the impression that there actually is $10,000.

All FRB does in reality is increase the velocity of money, money that would be saved and just sit in a safety deposit box is instead lent into the economy where it bids for goods and services, FRB is no different in it's macroeconomic effect than a bunch of small individual loans.
 
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Which concept is too difficult for pro-FRB posters? That the money lent out gets deposited into another (or the same) bank, allowing it to be lent again over and over, or the mathematics of the sum of a series?

I don't think you could have both watched the video and maintain ignorance of these concepts. Please do me the respect of watching the video so I don't have to type every single explanation out in the most minute detail.
 
Chris is wrong in that video.

It only appears as if there was money created. There is still only $1000 money after all the possible loans have been made under the mandated 10% reserve requirement. The only thing that increased are the balance sheets of FRB operators. Those are the facts.
 
Currency is only one form of money. When the balance sheet of the bank changes, so does the money supply.

See the first table at this link for references on the various forms in which money can exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_...s_in_the_United_States_Federal_Reserve_System


My sheet of paper says I have 10 apples but my basket shows I have 1, are you going to say that I have 10 apples just because someone else falsely believes I do and because again someone else in a blue costume with a gun says that I do?

C'mon, think.
 
You are confusing currency with money. Money also exists in non-physical form. In fact, the vast majority of money exists in non-physical form; currency makes up less than 3% of all money.

You are also confused as to which of us is thinking ;)
 
I was just trying to illustrate the difference between reserves and liabilities on a FRB operator's balance sheet, the reserves however can naturally be merely electronic, in fact in Bitcoin FRB that's all they are :D
 
You are confusing currency with money. Money also exists in non-physical form. In fact, the vast majority of money exists in non-physical form; currency makes up less than 3% of all money.

You are also confused as to which of us is thinking ;)
No. Money =/= currency. Money has specific traits:
1. Acceptability - Everyone must accept it to purchase goods and services

2. Durability - It should last a long time

3. Portability -
Easy
to carry around

4. Scarcity - Scarce enough to be
valuable
, not common such as sand or pebbles on a beach

5. Divisibility - Can be divided into small units


Even certain rocks, diamonds, etc. can be used as money. Currency is not necessarily "money".
 
It only appears as if there was money created. There is still only $1000 money after all the possible loans have been made under the mandated 10% reserve requirement. The only thing that increased are the balance sheets of FRB operators. Those are the facts.

Actually, there's something you're missing. Every step along the way goods and services are being paid for. In full.

Let's pretend there are two competing currencies - hard specie (bullion rounds - no coinage required) vs. FRB generated (multiplier processed) FRN's. Let's further stipulate that the bullion seller is also the mining company and mint selling the rounds - so whatever you are getting from them came straight from the ground and is now in a form that is considered an alternate form of currency.

Now let's start with $1,000 in FRN's in a single FRB bank, and call that "original money". $900 of it is loaned out, $100 kept in reserve - as we rinse and repeat with the multiplier until there's $1,000 in reserves and $9,000 in outstanding loans -- all to a single bank.

To further simplify, let's say we have one borrower with a $9,000 (unsecured) line of credit. To make things simpler still, he never borrows more than 100% of what the bank has available for lending without affecting its own reserve requirement.

The bullion seller, the same seller in all cases, accepts only cash. However, he also deposits whatever money he receives into the same bank from which the loans were made, and always on the same day that the money was withdrawn from the buyer's account. Each time the borrower borrows a fractional multiple of the original $1,000, he makes a full withdrawal, and uses this currency (cash each time) to buy bullion, straight from the mine/mint.

The bullion seller deposits this money before the close of each business day. Every time the bank receives a new cash deposit, it re-loans 90% of the increased deposit amount out the very next day.

Note that there is only one borrower, one seller, and only one bank for both parties.

Every transactional step along the multiplier way, the bank sees only a fresh supply of money that is presumably and entirely unencumbered. It has no way of knowing (or caring) that the increased deposits are from the money it already loaned out. It's only loaning out 90% of each new amount, while keeping 10% of it in reserve.

Likewise, the bullion seller has no way of knowing that he is accepting the SAME PHYSICAL CASH that was used before. All he knows is that everything he sold was paid for IN FULL, and that he has $9,000 in cash sitting in that bank (and every reason to believe it, given his RIGHT NOW right to demand it in full all at once).

By the time all is said and done, $1,000 in reserves has caused $9,000 in silver bullion to come into existence. The bullion seller did not "loan" ANY of his bullion into existence. He accepted cash only. That bullion was paid for, and he had free and clear title to that money prior to deposit.

So now we have one party with $9,000 in silver bullion - all unencumbered - which means that the silver bullion currency is now inflated by that much. Furthermore, we have one party (the bullion seller/mine/mint) with $9,000 FRN's on account at a single bank. The bank has $1,000 in reserves and $9,000 in outstanding loans on a single line of credit.

It was a banner month for the mine, and the bullion seller is now finally ready to pay bills and make payroll. The bullion seller is now within his rights to withdraw 100% -- all $9,000, which is his RIGHT NOW - on demand - as a matter of right. That puts the bank into a liquidity crisis, as it must try to call in loans, because it only has the original $1,000 (as it continued to be redeposited). So who does the bank contact? It's only debtor - the borrower who owns all that unencumbered silver. And he doesn't have to play ball. He has just as much of a contractual right to that money as the bullion company with the demand deposit. The borrower refuses to pay his loans off early, or even at a discount, and opts to simply service his debts according to the terms of his contract. Sorry, Bank, you're bankrupt. The bank tells the bullion seller sorry, take a powder. A lawsuit ensues, and the miner is forced to take a haircut as he takes possession of whatever is left of the original $1,000 after the bank is liquidated. But he's bankrupt too, since he can't pay for his mining/minting operation. Meanwhile, the borrower with $9,000 in silver bullion goes on a mad spending spree with all that bullion. The bullion itself was "paid for" in cash, but not really, because the underlying debt that made that cash available was never paid for. Nevertheless, the miner is bankrupt and that silver is now permanently and freely in circulation, competing with other silver that really was paid for.

Now who are the victims? Were the only parties of interest the borrower, the seller and the bank? Hardly. The vendors and employees of the mine were not parties to any risks, but were part of the ripple effect. The bank established a logical impossibility (selling multiple RIGHT NOW claims on the same money to multiple parties). The bank's inability to fulfill its contract to the borrower was not due to contingent circumstances - it was due entirely to this logical impossibility. The fact that the bank might get away with this for a time by using multiple parties, and forever borrowing from Future Peters to pay Past Pauls does not detract from insolvency that was deliberately inherent in the system to begin with. And even in the absence of a central bank and government tolerance of the practice, it takes time for the logical impossibilities of fractional reserve lending to finally come to a head. It SEEMS to work for many, for a time, but apparent functionality and success in the present does not mean that the future victims were simply unlucky. This is because the very system is designed in such a way that it always comes to an inevitable, inescapable default head, with certain victims - because the exponential expansion required for the system to be sustained was logically impossible to begin with.

Now here's my problem: As a positive statement of fact, the law recognizes no wrong-doing in any of this, and I fully acknowledge that fact. FDR really did treat depositors as "bad banking investors" rather than victims when he allowed the banks to default, ripped their gold off and forced them all to take a massive haircut, and Congress and the courts stood fully behind this sorry excuse for excrement who was only defending the inevitable fallout of FRB in the first place.

My position is that the law SHOULD (my normative statement) never tolerate this kind of deliberate logical impossibility in the future. Viewed on the whole, if you know that failure is a mathematical certainty, it does not matter whether it takes one day or thirty years for this certainty to come to fruition. It is fraudulent in its inception because the very system as designed REQUIRES that someone eventually suffer systemically-caused losses which are absolutely unavoidable somewhere along the way.
 
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Still reading but I wanted to clarify this before I forgot:

Each time the borrower borrows a fractional multiple of the original $1,000, he makes a full withdrawal, and uses this currency (cash each time) to buy bullion, straight from the mine/mint.

That's some sum less than $1000 and each time 90% of the reserves.
 
Likewise, the bullion seller has no way of knowing that he is accepting the SAME PHYSICAL CASH that was used before. All he knows is that everything he sold was paid for IN FULL, and that he has $9,000 in cash sitting in that bank (and every reason to believe it, given his RIGHT NOW right to demand it in full all at once).

Underlined part is wrong. He falsely believes this because of the current paradigm of CBs "lender of last resort" and monopoly on violence that is the government insuring his demand deposits. If this was by market regulated FRB he'd know that what he actually owns are investments assets i.e. CDs with on demand liquidity.

Stop thinking FRB would be viewed and function the same in a by strictly consumers regulated market (i.e. in a free market) as it does today.
 
Still reading but I wanted to clarify this before I forgot:

That's some sum less than $1000 and each time 90% of the reserves.

Correct. Always limited to 90% of the money re-deposited after it was loaned out, so the loans get smaller and smaller until the multiplier is theoretically 9:1 ratio of loans to reserves in that one bank/banking system.
 
Wow wow wow.

So who does the bank contact? It's only debtor - the borrower who owns all that unencumbered silver. And he doesn't have to play ball. He has just as much of a contractual right to that money as the bullion company with the demand deposit.

No, the FRB bank doesn't contact the borrower, the borrower has his own contract with the FRB bank for a loan and the bank can't unilaterally decide to suddenly change the terms just because they are in trouble with their reserves.

The borrower refuses to pay his loans off early, or even at a discount, and opts to simply services his debt according to the terms of his contract.

No need to refuse anything, he has his terms locked in.

Sorry, Bank, you're bankrupt. The bullion seller is forced to take a haircut as he takes possession of whatever is left of the original $1,000, but he's bankrupt too, since he can't pay for his mining/minting operation.

That's right, if there's no where else to borrow more reserves from the FRB bank goes under and the bullion seller get the assets (outstanding loans + reserves) and maybe he goes under himself in the process..

Meanwhile, the borrower goes on a mad spending spree with $9,000 in silver bullion that was never paid for but is now in circulation.

What? No. Those $9000 were already spent since that's how the FRB bank could lend out more in the first place - the bullion seller made more deposits. The borrower now owns a bunch of silver and owes $9000. This doesn't go away.


He's bankrupt and that silver is now permanently and freely in circulation, competing with other silver that really was paid for.

He is not bankrupt, he owns the silver which he could sell and pay off his debt or he could keep it and find another source of income to pay off the debt. nothing went into the circulation.

Now who are the victims?

The FRB bank went under, the bullion seller got $1000 and $9000 of loans, the borrower has the silver and $9000 of debt, you decide which makes who a victim, personally I think FRB bank is it's own victim(miscalculated reserve ratio), bullion seller maybe, depends if he does go under and borrower certainly is not.



Notice how the $9000 in loans and $9000 in debt cancels itself out we're left with $1000 that we had in the beginning? The only thing the FRB caused was an increase in velocity of money, that's all.
 
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Again confusing central banking with FRB.

No it isn't, inflation is a natural consequence of fractional reserve banking. As a basic example, say the reserve ratio is 10% and a client of a commercial bank deposits $10,000 into an account. So for simplicity's sake let us say "$9000" is redeposited at the same bank by another client. Even though only $10,000 exists, these two clients combined supposedly have $19,000 dollars. On an expanded scale this creates inflation and malinvestment in a large economy, and this is one of the reasons of how the business cycle comes about(regardless of whether there is a Central Bank).
 
Likewise, the bullion seller has no way of knowing that he is accepting the SAME PHYSICAL CASH that was used before. All he knows is that everything he sold was paid for IN FULL, and that he has $9,000 in cash sitting in that bank (and every reason to believe it, given his RIGHT NOW right to demand it in full all at once).

Underlined part is wrong. He falsely believes this because of the current paradigm of CBs "lender of last resort" and monopoly on violence that is the government insuring his demand deposits. If this was by market regulated FRB he'd know that what he actually owns are investments assets i.e. CDs with on demand liquidity.

Stop thinking FRB would be viewed and function the same in a by strictly consumers regulated market (i.e. in a free market) as it does today.

I'm not referring to CD's, savings accounts or anything else. Just DDA, or noninterest-bearing checking accounts, which now count as M1 reserves. And no mention was even made of the CB's "lender of last resort" status, since very few people in the general public even knows what that means - let alone would resort to this as a belief or paradigm from which they reason.

I don't know what form FRB would take in the hypothetical future any more than I could know what form LVT would take as Roy argues it strictly from his own envisioned implementation.

The only reason he believes that he has $9,000 in the bank reserved for his usage is because he goes online - like any other Tom, Dick or Sally and sees that number as his balance. And that belief stems from the fact that it's always been that way. Whatever you have has always been available to you yesterday, and will always be available for you tomorrow. And note that that I said he's "bankrupt" - rather than invoke FDIC or a lender of last resort. Under today's system he's not bankrupt. The government has his back - "Fail all you want, we'll print more".

If you're envisioning FRB where maturities are matched, and the conditions for deposits are well understood by lay people, and no contradictory or logically impossible claims exist, then I have no problem with it, and wouldn't see it as fraudulent at all. But that's not what I hear being argued. What I hear from most FRB apologists is that people with demand deposit accounts already know that they are "lending" money to the bank, relinquishing title and ownership in exchange for a creditor/debtor relationship with the bank. That they somehow understand that the money in their checking account is not really theirs after all - nor does it all necessarily exist at the bank - but only as contractual obligation by a bank that "owes them". I would be shocked if ten people in a million thought that way - that pulling money out of an ATM was the equivalent to "calling in a loan".
 
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