[Video] Fractional Reserve Banking is NOT Fraud

Just DDA, or noninterest-bearing checking accounts, which now count as M1 reserves.

You are missing the whole point of all of us arguing the facts that FRB isn't fraud. The above quoted ... would ... not ... exists ... in a by market regulated FRB. You'd have CDs with on demand liquidity instead and FRB customers would know that.

Why am I so sure? Because without the FDIC ensuring deposits and therefor severely increased scrutiny no one could convince people that they can cover all of their DDAs with a fraction of reserves.
 
If you're envisioning FRB where maturities are matched, and the conditions for deposits are well understood by lay people, and no contradictory or logically impossible claims exist, then I have no problem with it, and wouldn't see it as fraudulent at all.

Finally! That's all I'm arguing!


But that's not what I hear being argued. What I hear from most FRB apologists is that people with demand deposit accounts already know that they are "lending" money to the bank, relinquishing title and ownership in exchange for a creditor/debtor relationship with the bank. That they somehow understand that the money in their checking account is not really theirs after all - nor does it all necessarily exist at the bank - but only as contractual obligation by a bank that "owes them". I would be shocked if ten people in a million thought that way - that pulling money out of an ATM was the equivalent to "calling in a loan".

I don't think anyone of us "apologists" was arguing this... Every post I make I explicitly clarify that I mean FRB in a market regulated by strictly market consumers (i.e. in a free market).
 
What? No. Those $9000 were already spent since that's how the FRB bank could lend out more in the first place.

Sorry, wasn't clear there. $9,000 worth of silver bullion - not the paper money he used to pay for it.

He is not bankrupt, he owns the silver which he could sell and pay off his debt or he could keep it and find another source of income to pay off the debt. nothing went into the circulation.

I said he goes on a mad spending spree (with the silver, on wine and hookers). So he's now left with outstanding loans he has to pay, but no means to service the debt. So he goes bankrupt. And when that happens, the silver remains in circulation.

The FRB bank went under, the bullion seller got $1000 and $9000 of loans, the borrower has the silver and $9000 of debt, you decide which makes who a victim, personally FRB is a victim, bullion seller maybe, borrower certainly not.

I don't necessarily see any of them as victims. They were all participants taking risks. FRB (the system, not the bank that follows it) is not the victim. FRB is the perp - by its nature. By its logically impossible design.

Notice how the $9000 in loans and $9000 in debt cancels itself out we're left with $1000 that we had in the beginning? The only thing the FRB caused was an increase in velocity of money, that's all.

No, we have the original $1,000, and $9,000 worth of silver now in circulation. And if this was viewed in a vacuum, there's enough currency in existence to pay the $9,000, if paid over time, but on the principle only - not the interest required to retire the debt, which is in excess of $9,000. That interest MUST come from somewhere else outside the vacuum. And since it can't be mined, grown or sewn, someone's going to have to create it -- or else default on the borrower's part is inevitable, even without the mad spending spree.
 
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Sorry, wasn't clear there. $9,000 worth of silver bullion - not the paper money he used to pay for it.

Don't forget his $9,000 of debt.

I said he goes on a mad spending spree (with the silver, on wine and hookers). So he's now left with outstanding loans he has to pay, but no means to service the debt. So he goes bankrupt. And when that happens, the silver remains in circulation.

Right, so it's this borrower who was really the irresponsible party of the whole circle because now the bullion seller is out on $9000 worth of loans. The silver does remain in circulation but I don't understand what has that got to do with anything.. we still only have $1000 and the amount of silver $9000 bought back when there was an increase in velocity of money.


I don't necessarily see any of them as victims. They were all participants taking risks. FRB (the system, not the bank that follows it) is not the victim. FRB is the perp - by its nature. By its logically impossible design.

I think I showed in my previous post that with the end results the design isn't logically impossible. If the borrower had paid of his debt, the bullion seller would get his $10,000 worth and they both benefited, bullion seller got his money, and the borrower was able to borrow at a lower rate.


No, we have the original $1,000, and $9,000 worth of silver now in circulation. And if this was viewed in a vacuum, there's enough currency in existence to pay the $9,000, if paid over time, but on the principle only - not the interest required to retire the debt, which is in excess of $9,000. That interest MUST come from somewhere else outside the vacuum. And since it can't be mined, grown or sewn, someone's going to have to create it -- or else default on the borrower's part is inevitable, even without the mad spending spree.

I think you're mistaken. Because the interest would come out of the original $1,000 and there probably wouldn't be enough reserves to loan out $9,000.

Let's say this continues to be a closed loop and the borrower was an employee of the bullion seller, when the bullion seller sold his bullion to the borrower he couldn't deposit all of it because he had to pay let's say $10 to the borrower which the borrower then used to pay back the loan + interest.
 
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If you're envisioning FRB where maturities are matched, and the conditions for deposits are well understood by lay people, and no contradictory or logically impossible claims exist, then I have no problem with it, and wouldn't see it as fraudulent at all.
Finally! That's all I'm arguing!

Crap, I got caught in a trap of my own thought. It was the logical impossibility and the inevitable certainty of collapse that made it fraudulent for me - the contradictory claims were only part of that. On casual thought I figured that certainty of eventual collapse would vanish if maturities were matched. It doesn't.

Again, if this was viewed in a vacuum - in a free market (free by both our reckoning):

Under FRB, aggregate debt (principle + interest owed) invariably becomes greater than the amount of currency in existence. The only way these debts can all be satisfied without any artificial increase in the money supply is if the principle only is paid. Which is never the case. That interest MUST eventually come from somewhere else outside the vacuum. And since the interest can't be mined, grown or sewn, someone's going to have to create it -- or else default on the borrower's parts are an absolutely inevitability. Even with matched maturities, removing the RIGHT NOW claims from demand deposits, without perpetual expansion the entire system is still physically, logically impossible to reconcile, and defaults are a mathematical certainty - even if hard specie was the only currency in existence.

Until I can see a way that exponential growth and perpetual expansion are no longer a requirement of FRB in a free market, it will remain systemically fraudulent in my mind.
 
Under FRB, aggregate debt (principle + interest owed) invariably becomes greater than the amount of currency in existence. The only way these debts can all be satisfied without any artificial increase in the money supply is if the principle only is paid. Which is never the case. That interest MUST eventually come from somewhere else outside the vacuum. And since the interest can't be mined, grown or sewn, someone's going to have to create it -- or else default on the borrower's parts are an absolutely inevitability. Even with matched maturities, removing the RIGHT NOW claims from demand deposits, without perpetual expansion the entire system is still physically, logically impossible to reconcile, and defaults are a mathematical certainty - even if hard specie was the only currency in existence.

You are mistaken, interest come out of the principle meaning, there's less and less of it available for loans.

So if the FRB loans $900 from that original $1,000, the borrower buys bullion from the bullion seller, bullion seller pays salary to borrower $10(remember FRB wouldn't just make any loans, he'd loan to someone who has the means to repay), now instead of $900 going back into the reserves only $890 goes back and so the principle of the next loan gets smaller..

EDIT: and if we look at this circle further, the borrower probably couldn't get the next loan if the bullion seller wouldn't tripple his salary, so when the borrower borrows his next loan of now only $801 and buys bullion, the bullion seller now has to pay $30 to the borrower and can only deposit $771 and if again the borrower wanted to borrow, his salary would need to be higher yet again if he hoped to ever get a loan, let's say it needed to triple one more time, so now when he borrows $694 and buys bullion and the bullion seller pays $90 salary and depoists only $604 and so on

and pretty soon you get to the point where the borrower doesn't make enough to get a loan because the seller doesn't make enough money to raise his salary because the borrower could borrow and buy his bullion.. and the whole increase in velocity of money stops.
 
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Under FRB, aggregate debt (principle + interest owed) invariably becomes greater than the amount of currency in existence. The only way these debts can all be satisfied without any artificial increase in the money supply is if the principle only is paid. Which is never the case. That interest MUST eventually come from somewhere else outside the vacuum. And since the interest can't be mined, grown or sewn, someone's going to have to create it -- or else default on the borrower's parts are an absolutely inevitability. Even with matched maturities, removing the RIGHT NOW claims from demand deposits, without perpetual expansion the entire system is still physically, logically impossible to reconcile, and defaults are a mathematical certainty - even if hard specie was the only currency in existence.
You are mistaken, interest come out of the principle meaning, there's less and less of it available for loans.

Firstly, interest always originates as the principle of some other loan. Secondly, the interest paid to banks is also available for loans in one form or another. Banks pay out money for salaries, dividends and bills like any other business - which money is then deposited into and circulates within the banking system. Furthermore, banks loan out their own remaining assets; in fact, no bank can even come into existence without its own assets to place into a reserve account to begin with.

So if the FRB loans $900 from that original $1,000, the borrower buys bullion from the bullion seller, bullion seller pays salary to borrower $10 (remember FRB wouldn't just make any loans, he'd loan to someone who has the means to repay), now instead of $900 going back into the reserves only $890 goes back and so the principle of the next loan gets smaller..

$890 ($900 - $10 paid in salary) might be the case if the person earning the salary is actually cashing his check at the bank and not depositing it anywhere, and assuming further that this cash simply continues to circulate outside the banking system in cash-only transactions. Otherwise, the moment it goes back into the system as a deposit anywhere, it is again counted as reserves.

But you bring up an interesting question: What if that $10 didn't get ever deposited anywhere? And what if others followed suit, as would be the case where "maturity matching" is required for deposits:

Think about what would happen if the majority of transactions were cash only, and banks were used by people solely as vehicles for obtaining loans and making cash only payments on loans (which cash-only payments banks like BofA HIGHLY resist as a matter of policy). This is what proves in my mind that the entire system is nothing more than the fraudulent illusion based on credit dependency (as a requirement) paradigm, one that is incompatible with privately accumulated capital as competition:

In the absence of a central bank, if nobody wrote checks or used the banking system at all as a vehicle for payment of debts, but cashed out and paid all debts in cash only, bank reserves would dry up completely, and all banks would immediately face a massive liquidity crisis in a catastrophic domino effect. If everyone was forced to wait for their money each time a deposit was made, fewer people would make deposits.

Even if nobody saved (no money in coffee cans or hidden in safes and mattresses) and all of the money busily and openly circulated throughout society, in the eyes of banks it would appear to be "hoarding" (open hoarding by everyone, no less - more like a game of keepaway). That's because credit is only abundant when the actual reserves, which are rare, are in the possession of the banking system. That is even to the point where banks consider all of those instruments conveniences of the banking system (which they will smugly state are conveniences to "customers of the banking system"). The system itself absolutely requires a "mostly cashless" society to even function, given the banking system's absolute dependency on the reserves required to maintain the illusion of solvency.

If everyone used cash only (NOT checks or other bank instruments) for most transactions, a conundrum exists ONLY for banks and for those using credit (which is NOT EVERYONE). The damage inflicted would extend to everyone - including parties who have ZERO credit, and are not parties of interest to any of these credit transactions, but that is incidental, since the claim is that the risks of FRB are confined only to those who knowingly participate.

The velocity of money would slow to a stop, credit would be increasingly difficult to obtain, and prices would fall (ALL VERY GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY IN MY MIND). That includes the prices of all assets - except for the bank loans, which do not adjust to deflation. Those loans are designed to be repaid with currency that is expected to lose, not gain, value relative to all other goods and services, based on an ever-expanding supply. Now you're sitting there with $1,000 in total currency, most of which is circulating openly but not in the banks possession, and therefore not counted as reserves. However, $9,000 in loans + interest (read=OVERVALUED ASSETS) must somehow be repaid -- using the $1,000 in existence.
 
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FRB is fraudulent in that it tells customers that their deposits are demand deposits, which is simply BS. It's as fraudulent a promise as ever has been made. It's a con-game no matter how anyone tries to explain it away, arguments in this utopian free market world thread notwithstanding.

FRB would not be fraudulent if the banks told their customers "We will never have enough cash to satisfy all depositors in a worse-case scenario (in cash, or gold, or seashells or whatever). Neither does the FDIC or any other entity that may claim to insure all deposits. The larger this bank becomes, the less able it will be to return all deposits."

The problem is that Americans have lived in a debt based system for generations. This system has a simple motto; "Grow or Die". The debt system has inflation as a requirement, thus the basic tenet, grow or die. For decades, we've exported our inflation, but now there is nowhere left to export it and it's coming home to roost.

I agree that the system isn't fraudulent on paper. What makes it fraudulent is that it has to be sold by (legalized) fraudulent advertising and can only exist with no competition.

In a true free market, FRB would be laughed out of the game.
 
FRB is fraudulent in that it tells customers that their deposits are demand deposits, which is simply BS. It's as fraudulent a promise as ever has been made. It's a con-game no matter how anyone tries to explain it away, arguments in this utopian free market world thread notwithstanding.

FRB would not be fraudulent if the banks told their customers "We will never have enough cash to satisfy all depositors in a worse-case scenario (in cash, or gold, or seashells or whatever). Neither does the FDIC or any other entity that may claim to insure all deposits. The larger this bank becomes, the less able it will be to return all deposits."

The problem is that Americans have lived in a debt based system for generations. This system has a simple motto; "Grow or Die". The debt system has inflation as a requirement, thus the basic tenet, grow or die. For decades, we've exported our inflation, but now there is nowhere left to export it and it's coming home to roost.

I agree that the system isn't fraudulent on paper. What makes it fraudulent is that it has to be sold by (legalized) fraudulent advertising and can only exist with no competition.

In a true free market, FRB would be laughed out of the game.

That may or may not be the case, me, hazek and other arn't trying to determine what would fly in a free market, if a 100% reserve gold dollar is what comes out of afree market that would be totally fine with me, I just think it'd be anti-free market not to let the market figure that out and instead just make it illegal... just seems like a cheap way for anyones preferred system to win.
 
just seems like a cheap way for anyones preferred system to win.

Not only that but it's no longer a market regulated by strictly market consumers (i.e. a free market) once you have a monopoly on violence making rules what flys and what doesn't.

By market consumers regulated FRB can only be made "illegal" when consumers simply don't use the service.
 
Not necessarily in a World of come petting courts and legal systems, the prevailing law be different in different places, so some places define FRB as Fraud which I don't think is neccessary but can happen.

I just don't think there should It is intrinsically fraudulent, but in a world where banking and legal system are chosen by consumers in a market whatever emerges inherently best suit that body of consumers.
 
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