Video for abortion lovers

[LibertyEagle]

Xeno,

That is one of the reasons why it's probably better to leave it up to the states. I agree with you about choosing liberty. The only thing with this particular issue is that I feel like someone has to stand up for the unborn. As they do not have a voice to do it themselves. If the issue we were discussing did not involve said unborns, and was instead solely about the government dictating to a woman, then I would agree with you. But, that's not the case, here.

The way it stands now, our tax dollars are going towards funding abortion. Now, you know that is just not right.

 

[Bman]

Last time I knew, "this movement" supported states' rights. Said states' rights are all about not having a one-size-fits-all solution.

Roe v. Wade should be overturned and the decision left up to the states.

Based on the 9th and 14th amendments how would you consider such an issue state rights over personal rights. It's the whole reason Roe vs Wade was decided in the fasion it was. What piece of information has changed to make the enviroment different?

 

[Bman]

I bet a cow would never ever consider having an abortion. I think that makes them superior to humans cause at least they respect life!!!

It's funny how lions take a totally different approach.

 

[tremendoustie]

WTH, why does this discussion keep going along these irrelevant lines.

Here is the only question:

When does personhood begin?

It's not about "right to choose". If I did not believe my six year old was a person would I have the right to choose to kill him? No.

Those who think all abortion should be legal need to get busy explaining why a kid 5 minutes before birth is not a person, but afterward is.

Those who think all abortion should be illegal should get busy convincing people that a fertilized egg is a person.

Those who take another stance, perhaps in between these extremes, need to convince people of that.



I'm seriously tired of hearing people say, "if you oppose abortion, you should convince mothers not to have them, not make it illegal". To a person who believes personhood begins some time before birth, you might as well say, "if you oppose people being murdered, you should convince murderers not to kill people, not make it illegal", or "if you oppose slavery, you should convince slaveholders to free them, not make it illegal".

It's total nonsense, and just distracts from the issue at hand: When does personhood begin? Can't we come up with a reasonable answer to this? We've come up with a pretty reasonable answer as to when it ends.

 

[tremendoustie]

I am not for abortion, I am also not for the state controlling what a mother does to her body.

Yes, and I am not for the state controlling what I do with my home, so I can kill a person inside it, right?

The point is, you don't think fetuses are people, so they shouldn't have rights. That's fine -- but THAT's what we should be discussing, not privacy rights, which are totally irrelevant here.

 

[NationaliseIt]

To label people who are pro-choice as "abortion lovers" is a derogatory attack. I'm pro choice but don't get me wrong, I wish that it didn't exist and view it as an evil, however I see it as a necessary evil.

It's total nonsense, and just distracts from the issue at hand: When does personhood begin? Can't we come up with a reasonable answer to this? We've come up with a pretty reasonable answer as to when it ends.

Ability to live independent of the mother?
First heart beat?
First firing of a synapse?

 

[Zera]

I personally do not think it's up to any person to say abortion shouldn't be allowed, so I suppose you could say that I am more so pro choice on it. However, I don't always see it as the morally right thing to do. That's not to say that there aren't many situation where there may be a need for it, in fact, it is necessary many times, but to simply use abortion just because you don't want to deal with it is irresponsible. Despite that, I still believe it's not up to me to say whats right and whats wrong.

Also, you can stop being so derogative. People have different opinions than you.

 

[tremendoustie]

To label people who are pro-choice as "abortion lovers" is a derogatory attack. I'm pro choice but don't get me wrong, I wish that it didn't exist and view it as an evil, however I see it as a necessary evil.



Ability to live independent of the mother?
First heart beat?
First firing of a synapse?

I'd say the last two -- heart beat and brain waves. That seems like the most reasonable stance to me, since it's also the rule for when people die.

Independence doesn't make as much sense to me. Young kids and handicapped people cannot live independently either. A person on a heart and lung machine cannot live independently.

I just think this is the real issue, and we would do well for ourselves to take an open minded look at it, instead of dancing around it and hurling insults.

 

[tremendoustie]

I personally do not think it's up to any person to say abortion shouldn't be allowed, so I suppose you could say that I am more so pro choice on it. However, I don't always see it as the morally right thing to do. That's not to say that there aren't many situation where there may be a need for it, in fact, it is necessary many times, but to simply use abortion just because you don't want to deal with it is irresponsible. Despite that, I still believe it's not up to me to say whats right and whats wrong.

Also, you can stop being so derogative. People have different opinions than you.

When do you think personhood begins, that is, the point at which a person obtains rights of their own?

 

[Bman]

I'm seriously tired of hearing people say, "if you oppose abortion, you should convince mothers not to have them, not make it illegal".

I'm seriously tired of people trying to make a larger criminal system. And thus raise my taxes.

I'm also tired of no one explaining how they take this stance and cna apply it to the 9th and 14th amendments.

Lets face it. This is not a constitutional agument. This is a church issue. And to ideas of a theocracy I say NO THANK YOU!

 

[Zera]

When do you think personhood begins, that is, the point at which a person obtains rights of their own?

Third month. My religion states that the baby gets it's soul then.

 

[tremendoustie]

I'm seriously tired of people trying to make a larger criminal system. And thus raise my taxes.

I'm also tired of no one explaining how they take this stance and cna apply it to the 9th and 14th amendments.

Lets face it. This is not a constitutional agument. This is a church issue. And to ideas of a theocracy I say NO THANK YOU!

It has no more to do with the church than the law that says you can't kill your grandmother even though she's 97.

It's not necessary to be religious to believe that personhood begins at a time other than birth.

I do agree that whatever laws there are should be enacted and enforced at the state level, however.

So, I assume you believe that personhood begins at birth, so a person has full rights a minute after, but not a minute before?

Oh, and I'm with you on taxes, I don't think we should have them at all .

 

[tremendoustie]

Third month. My religion states that the baby gets it's soul then.

Oh, ok. I'm curious, what relgion is this, and is there a particular line of reasoning behind this stance?

 

[Zera]

Oh, ok. I'm curious, what relgion is this, and is there a particular line of reasoning behind this stance?

Islam. There is nothing in the actual Koran about abortion, though Muslim scholars generally agree that abortion is a sin, a woman's health is more important if it is at danger, issues that would make the baby difficult to take care of (mainly health problems) can permit it, and that the fetus is on the same level as plants and animals until around 120 days, when it is blessed with a soul.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I think one thing that gets overlooked in the abortion debate is the feelings of the man.

I wonder if men were the ones to get pregnant, would pro-choice be the default in society?

 

[Zuras]

Islam. There is nothing in the actual Koran about abortion, though Muslim scholars generally agree that abortion is a sin, a woman's health is more important if it is at danger, issues that would make the baby difficult to take care of (mainly health problems) can permit it, and that the fetus is on the same level as plants and animals until around 120 days, when it is blessed with a soul.

Who ordained this? The Muslims no longer have a caliphate, and if it's not found in the Koran, where does this "truth" spring?

 

[tremendoustie]

Islam. There is nothing in the actual Koran about abortion, though Muslim scholars generally agree that abortion is a sin, a woman's health is more important if it is at danger, issues that would make the baby difficult to take care of (mainly health problems) can permit it, and that the fetus is on the same level as plants and animals until around 120 days, when it is blessed with a soul.

And, after the baby is blessed with a soul, is it then considered to have the same rights as any other person?

It seems somewhat reasonable to me, at least, certainly more so than conception or birth. What is the soul, in muslim teaching? Is it equivalent to the mind, which is also equivalent to awareness (consciousness)? This is how I view the soul.

 

[Zera]

Who ordained this? The Muslims no longer have a caliphate, and if it's not found in the Koran, where does this "truth" spring?

Well, in that case, all Abrahamic religions wouldn't. In fact, many things would be different.

But morally, I still believe killing a fetus just because you don't feel like taking care of it is wrong. Though, as I said, there are sometimes when abortion is necessary.

 

[Zera]

And, after the baby is blessed with a soul, is it then considered to have the same rights as any other person?

It seems somewhat reasonable to me, at least, certainly more so than conception or birth. What is the soul, in muslim teaching? Is it equivalent to the mind, which is also equivalent to awareness (consciousness)? This is how I view the soul.

It is simply believed that it is the turning point in which the fetus is fully human. So I am assuming yes, it would have human rights by then. However, Islam still views that the life of the mother is more important, and if there is some sort of danger to her, her life is more important.

 

[Bman]

It has no more to do with the church than the law that says you can't kill your grandmother even though she's 97.

It's not necessary to be religious to believe that personhood begins at a time other than birth.

I do agree that whatever laws there are should be enacted and enforced at the state level, however.

So, I assume you believe that personhood begins at birth, so a person has full rights a minute after, but not a minute before?

Oh, and I'm with you on taxes, I don't think we should have them at all .

I know you agree with me on taxes. And part of why I argue with pro-lifers is to hopefully find the areas where we do agree. The areas that we uniformily can accept all together in a movement.

I certainly cannot ask you to view life from my perspective, nor support it.

But what I can say is like you I want no tax dollars going to this issue. And I certainly would advocate the ability for communities to decide how best to educate their children to make the best decisions possible.

I think it is clear where we disagree. Why can't this movement find where we do agree? Because we certainly need to find it. And on this topic the sooner the better.