Gary Johnson Video: Elect One of Our Own. One Time.

[HardyMacia]

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

Gary Johnson's legacy of building more prison cells via privatization is quite hard to swallow. Much worse for me (and needless to say those in his jails for victimless crimes) than anyone's political posturing. This is a legacy of blood and tears.

I look and see the GJ Grassroots page try to explain away his cage building... They complain that "overcrowding" forced his hand and that the legislature wouldn't approve of additional funds so he had to get creative...

WTF?

STM even an idiot's cost/benefit analysis should have been able to see that the best way to reduce overcrowding (and deliver the kind of justice only a brave liberty executive can wield) was to PARDON THOSE IN FOR VICTIMLESS CRIMES!!!

Major FAIL Gary, in multiple levels

 

[Danke]

He is wrong about taxation, as is RP.

It is Constitutional. But, and it is a big but, it doesn't apply to most Americans. Is is being wrongly enforce against unsuspecting players in the game of commerce. Or is the man in China somehow evading taxes by using FRNs and earning wages?

 

[rockandrollsouls]

This has already been addressed, but I take it this is an admission by you as to why anyone who thinks GJ is a supporter of liberty is persecuted on this forum.

1.) It IS a fact the legislature would not work with GJ. He had one of two options; send prisoners to another state to be lost in the system or keep them in New Mexico.
2.) GJ does not have the authority to walk into a prison, look at a prisoner, and let him out. This shows your fundamental misunderstanding of the pardon system in New Mexico. As established by the state's legislature, every prisoner who wishes to be pardoned must submit an application. Further, as supporters of liberty, we cannot force all prisoners to submit an application.

So in conclusion, unless every single prisoner of a "victimless crime" submitted an application for pardon with supporting documentation, there is NO possible way Gary could have pardoned enough prisoners to even begin to address the issue of overcrowding. I'm still waiting for ONE critic of this to address that FACT. No one has.

So what would you have done? And you don't have the mythical power you claim to walk into a prison and set everyone you choose free. That is a complete and total fallacy.

Gary Johnson's legacy of building more prison cells via privatization is quite hard to swallow. Much worse for me (and needless to say those in his jails for victimless crimes) than anyone's political posturing. This is a legacy of blood and tears.

I look and see the GJ Grassroots page try to explain away his cage building... They complain that "overcrowding" forced his hand and that the legislature wouldn't approve of additional funds so he had to get creative...

WTF?

STM even an idiot's cost/benefit analysis should have been able to see that the best way to reduce overcrowding (and deliver the kind of justice only a brave liberty executive can wield) was to PARDON THOSE IN FOR VICTIMLESS CRIMES!!!

Major FAIL Gary, in multiple levels

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

This has already been addressed, but I take it this is an admission by you as to why anyone who thinks GJ is a supporter of liberty is persecuted on this forum.

Above is an admission by you that you are clueless how this forum works. For one, this is Ron Paul Forums and Gary Johnson is an OPPOSING CANDIDATE. For two, moderators here pretty much act on their own and are allowed to express themselves as the individuals they are. For three, persecuted? really? LOL @ thin skin

1.) It IS a fact the legislature would not work with GJ. He had one of two options; send prisoners to another state to be lost in the system or keep them in New Mexico.
2.) GJ does not have the authority to walk into a prison, look at a prisoner, and let him out. This shows your fundamental misunderstanding of the pardon system in New Mexico. As established by the state's legislature, every prisoner who wishes to be pardoned must submit an application. Further, as supporters of liberty, we cannot force all prisoners to submit an application.

So in conclusion, unless every single prisoner of a "victimless crime" submitted an application for pardon with supporting documentation, there is NO possible way Gary could have pardoned enough prisoners to even begin to address the issue of overcrowding. I'm still waiting for ONE critic of this to address that FACT. No one has.

So what would you have done? And you don't have the mythical power you claim to walk into a prison and set everyone you choose free. That is a complete and total fallacy.

Funny, I've raised this issue multiple times (here and elsewhere) and this is the first time anyone has tried to address it. Usually I hear crickets...

I'd like to see that he even looked into the pardon route. Seems pretty easy to send out an order for all wardens to let the population know that the Guv was looking to pardon all those jailed for victimless crimes and suggest the prisoners file for pardon.

And your conclusion makes no sense.

Try harder next time, thanks

 

[rockandrollsouls]

...Which is why Ron's official campaign conceded the nomination before we were even done fighting? Which is why his own son endorsed his opponent? Which is why Ron conceded in an email? I've emptied my pockets, donated countless hours, and fought tooth and nail BOTH election cycles to have Jesse Benton and his goons give up before the finish line. And you expect me to support that official campaign? The one that can't even communicate with the delegates?! Even though I maxed out to the official campaign at the beginning of the cycle, if I hadn't my money would only be going to the PACs furthering Ron's cause right now (who I happen to be donating to as well.)

I am all for trying to get Ron the nod at the convention by nominating him from the floor, but in the likely event we are once again shafted by the establishment, what then? What if we could have gotten a candidate into the debates that both Ron and Judge Napolitano have supported in the past (Ron before he threw his own hat into the ring, and Napolitano just weeks ago.) And further, if Ron and the Judge did not find GJ approach to the prison situation unconstitutional as per NM constitution or against the party platform, why do you have such an issue with it?

Anyway, you didn't answer any part of my inquiry; you just disregarded it. Show me the prisoners that applied for pardon who GJ denied. Show me ONE. Show me one instance where GJ denied a prisoner or wrongfully imprisoned one for political gain. The issue here is you're using this instance to claim GJ supports throwing non-violent offenders in prison. Absolutely not the case; you just don't want to take state law, state legislature, or state government into consideration. GJ was not a dictator; he could only work with what he had, and if you watched any interviews with him it's very clear through his words, body language, and voice tonality he didn't WANT to build more prisons. But when you're bound by law, and no one will work with you, what do you do?

I'd still love to hear your solution to the problem. Posting an all-points bulletin in hopes the required percentage of prisoners WERE non-violent drug offenders and WOULD apply for pardon is a little bit wishful, no?

Above is an admission by you that you are clueless how this forum works. For one, this is Ron Paul Forums and Gary Johnson is an OPPOSING CANDIDATE. For two, moderators here pretty much act on their own and are allowed to express themselves as the individuals they are. For three, persecuted? really? LOL @ thin skin



Funny, I've raised this issue multiple times (here and elsewhere) and this is the first time anyone has tried to address it. Usually I hear crickets...

I'd like to see that he even looked into the pardon route. Seems pretty easy to send out an order for all wardens to let the population know that the Guv was looking to pardon all those jailed for victimless crimes and suggest the prisoners file for pardon.

And your conclusion makes no sense.

Try harder next time, thanks

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

.... What if we could have gotten a candidate into the debates that both Ron and Judge Napolitano have supported in the past (Ron before he threw his own hat into the ring, and Napolitano just weeks ago.) And further, if Ron and the Judge did not find GJ approach to the prison situation unconstitutional as per NM constitution or against the party platform, why do you have such an issue with it?

I have an issue with it because he had the power to make a bold stroke and went the complete opposite direction. I have a bigger problem with the idea of corporate prisons in general and Gary's use of them shows how cold and calculating he is.

Further, have Ron or The Judge been asked about this issue? Are they even aware of it? And what does their stance have to do with mine? Like most people, I don't agree with anyone 100%...

Anyway, you didn't answer any part of my inquiry; you just disregarded it.

Really? The way I read it you said that Gary could not possibly have pulled off the pardon route, and I responded noting that I'd like to see evidence that he even considered it... That is a far cry from disregarding it...

Show me the prisoners that applied for pardon who GJ denied. Show me ONE. Show me one instance where GJ denied a prisoner or wrongfully imprisoned one for political gain.

- I asked for evidence (that he even considered it) first

The issue here is you're using this instance to claim GJ supports throwing non-violent offenders in prison.

Putting words in my mouth now... Desperation is ugly...

he could only work with what he had, and if you watched any interviews with him it's very clear through his words, body language, and voice tonality he didn't WANT to build more prisons. But when you're bound by law, and no one will work with you, what do you do?

He had the power of the pulpit and the pardon. He failed. You are trying to make it seem like NM has made it just about impossible to pardon people. I call BS

I'd still love to hear your solution to the problem. Posting an all-points bulletin in hopes the required percentage of prisoners WERE non-violent drug offenders and WOULD apply for pardon is a little bit wishful, no?

Are you serious? An all points bulletin?

How about a press conference letting all New Mexicans know that if they have loved ones in jail for victimless crimes they should encourage the prisoners to file for a pardon? Sending out an order to all prison wardens to encourage all incarcerated for victimless crimes to file and an order to have people in the prisons to assist them? Both of these things were in his power and he failed.

Roughly 40% of the prison population is for victimless crimes, even if only 75% filed (I'd expect 110% to file) that would have reduced the population by ~30%. Since you seem an expert on NM prisons, what percentage did he expand the prison system to fulfill the court order?

(and BTW, I have other issues with Gary as well, some that I learned when volunteering with him two summers ago )

 

[ninepointfive]

and this is why we can't have nice things...... =(

 

[Revolution9]

But when you're bound by law, and no one will work with you, what do you do?

Run for Prez under the (L) banner.

Rev9

 

[rockandrollsouls]

You still haven't provided a possible solution to the problem. You have an over abundance of prisoners, the legislature won't permit state owned prisoners, so you can put them in another state or have another company build and operate it for less than the state can. And despite your opinion that most prisoners would apply for a pardon, meet state eligibility requirements, and all of those that applied would be pardoned, not ONE single prisoner applied.

Yet....this is all GJs fault? You want GJ to explain your specific issue. That's probably not going to happen, and I can't look into Gary's mind to see if he thought of the pardon route (though, in other speeches he has expressed willingness to pardon non violent drug offenders.) That's a dead end we'll be going back and forth on since neither of us can read an individuals mind. You say he didn't think of it, judging by his record and drug position I think it crossed his mind.

However, we can likely research those that did apply for a pardon and further investigate if he ever did turn away a non violent drug offender requesting a pardon. To my knowledge, and based on the research I've done, I couldn't find an instance of GJ denying a non-violent drug offender a pardon.
If he had turned them away, then I would agree with your point...but I can't find anything to support it.

There's also the fact New Mexico has a parole board of 15 members that handle all cases before it even reaches the governor....so by your estimates 110% of the prison population would apply, and the parole board would sift through each case by case before it even hit the governor's desk.... How could you even guarantee the parole board would recommend a non-violent drug offender for pardon, allowing it to reach the governor's desk?

To further complicate the issue, we have absolutely no idea what percentage of New Mexico's prison population were non-violent drug offenders.

There are so many different aspects to this issue, yet you claim to know everything about it and have condemned Gary. But you don't have any better solution...

I have an issue with it because he had the power to make a bold stroke and went the complete opposite direction. I have a bigger problem with the idea of corporate prisons in general and Gary's use of them shows how cold and calculating he is.

Further, have Ron or The Judge been asked about this issue? Are they even aware of it? And what does their stance have to do with mine? Like most people, I don't agree with anyone 100%...



Really? The way I read it you said that Gary could not possibly have pulled off the pardon route, and I responded noting that I'd like to see evidence that he even considered it... That is a far cry from disregarding it...



- I asked for evidence (that he even considered it) first



Putting words in my mouth now... Desperation is ugly...



He had the power of the pulpit and the pardon. He failed. You are trying to make it seem like NM has made it just about impossible to pardon people. I call BS



Are you serious? An all points bulletin?

How about a press conference letting all New Mexicans know that if they have loved ones in jail for victimless crimes they should encourage the prisoners to file for a pardon? Sending out an order to all prison wardens to encourage all incarcerated for victimless crimes to file and an order to have people in the prisons to assist them? Both of these things were in his power and he failed.

Roughly 40% of the prison population is for victimless crimes, even if only 75% filed (I'd expect 110% to file) that would have reduced the population by ~30%. Since you seem an expert on NM prisons, what percentage did he expand the prison system to fulfill the court order?

(and BTW, I have other issues with Gary as well, some that I learned when volunteering with him two summers ago )

 

[Cody1]

Anyone notice at the end it says "Obamney is the bomb?"

 

[ronpaulhawaii]

You still haven't provided a possible solution to the problem. You have an over abundance of prisoners, the legislature won't permit state owned prisoners, so you can put them in another state or have another company build and operate it for less than the state can. And despite your opinion that most prisoners would apply for a pardon, meet state eligibility requirements, and all of those that applied would be pardoned, not ONE single prisoner applied.

I never stated an opinion like you ascribe to me, and you are doing this same sort of spin with each reply. Putting words in my mouth.

Further, I have rasied "possible" solutions other than building more cages. The reason the prisons were overcrowded is the increased prosecution of victimless crimes. Keep in mind that the justice apparatus falls under the purview of the executive, not the legislature. I can think of possible solutions without building more cages. Also, note that the court order to reduce overcrowding was decades old before Gary got there, so he had all the time in the world to address the root cause of overcrowding, instead he subsidized prison corporations. Couldn't he have instructed his justice dept to stop prosecuting victimless crimes? other executives do that.

And your claim that no prisoners applied is meaningless, unless he had used his bully pulpit and executive powers to make sure all prisoners knew of his plan to reduce overcrowding by pardoning those in jail for victimless crimes.

And are you really going to assert that it would take more time/money to process pardon applications than it did to build more prisons?

Yet....this is all GJs fault? You want GJ to explain your specific issue. That's probably not going to happen, and I can't look into Gary's mind to see if he thought of the pardon route (though, in other speeches he has expressed willingness to pardon non violent drug offenders.) That's a dead end we'll be going back and forth on since neither of us can read an individuals mind. You say he didn't think of it, judging by his record and drug position I think it crossed his mind.

However, we can likely research those that did apply for a pardon and further investigate if he ever did turn away a non violent drug offender requesting a pardon. To my knowledge, and based on the research I've done, I couldn't find an instance of GJ denying a non-violent drug offender a pardon.
If he had turned them away, then I would agree with your point...but I can't find anything to support it.

I can't find any evidence that he pardoned ANY drug offenders? Disingenous much? Here is a snippet from another of his supporters:

"because he ... did not pardon drug offenders during his two terms as New Mexico's Governor."​

There's also the fact New Mexico has a parole board of 15 members that handle all cases before it even reaches the governor....so by your estimates 110% of the prison population would apply, and the parole board would sift through each case by case before it even hit the governor's desk.... How could you even guarantee the parole board would recommend a non-violent drug offender for pardon, allowing it to reach the governor's desk?

I guess you missed this:

The New Mexico Constitution gives the Governor the power to “grant reprieves and pardons, after conviction for all offenses except treason and in cases of impeachment.”[SUP][1][/SUP] The Legislature may regulate the manner in which a person can apply for a pardon.[SUP][1][/SUP] However, the Governor has a lot of discretion in granting clemency/pardon. In making pardon decisions, he is not restrained by anything other than his “conscience, wisdom and sense of public duty.”[SUP][2][/SUP]
The Legislature has created the New Mexico Parole Board which has the authority to, at the request of the Governor, accept, investigate, and make recommendations on pardon applications.[SUP][3][/SUP] The Parole Board is made up of fifteen members who are appointed by the Governor and confirmed by the Senate; they each serve a six-year term.[SUP][4]

http://pardon411.com/wiki/New_Mexico_Pardon_Information[/SUP]

The Parole Board is "appointed by the Governor" and he had a lot of discretion in granting clemency/pardon...not restrained by anything other than his “conscience, wisdom and sense of public duty.” Further, the New Mexico Parole Board which has the authority to, at the request of the Governor, accept, investigate, and make recommendations on pardon applications."

The question becomes, DID HE REQUEST THIS? (and since the Parole Board are his appointees and works under his orders, are you suggesting that he could not have ordered a fast track?)

To further complicate the issue, we have absolutely no idea what percentage of New Mexico's prison population were non-violent drug offenders.

First, I keep talking about victimeless crimes, you keep talking about one section of that population. Regardless, you are being obtuse here. The national avg is ~40% and most reasonable people can extrapolate for discussion purposes.

There are so many different aspects to this issue, yet you claim to know everything about it and have condemned Gary. But you don't have any better solution...

BS, I have never claimed to know everything about this and have proposed solutions.

I also condemn GJ for not denouncing his team for the strategy of attacking Paul and his supporters to grow their base, (using spin and insult like you display here, on Ron Paul forums.)

Finally, these are all examples leading to my base reason for not supporting him. He is a cold, calculating, ego driven man who uses heartless cost/benefit analysis tactics to reach his goals. The fact that his tactics allowed more people to be caged for victimless crimes is merely a vivid example.

He is a mountain climber, not a libertarian. And his "principles" leave much to be desired...

 

[Cody1]

I never stated an opinion like you ascribe to me, and you are doing this same sort of spin with each reply. Putting words in my mouth.

Further, I have rasied "possible" solutions other than building more cages. The reason the prisons were overcrowded is the increased prosecution of victimless crimes. Keep in mind that the justice apparatus falls under the purview of the executive, not the legislature. I can think of possible solutions without building more cages. Also, note that the court order to reduce overcrowding was decades old before Gary got there, so he had all the time in the world to address the root cause of overcrowding, instead he subsidized prison corporations. Couldn't he have instructed his justice dept to stop prosecuting victimless crimes? other executives do that.

And your claim that no prisoners applied is meaningless, unless he had used his bully pulpit and executive powers to make sure all prisoners knew of his plan to reduce overcrowding by pardoning those in jail for victimless crimes.

And are you really going to assert that it would take more time/money to process pardon applications than it did to build more prisons?



I can't find any evidence that he pardoned ANY drug offenders? Disingenous much? Here is a snippet from another of his supporters:

"because he ... did not pardon drug offenders during his two terms as New Mexico's Governor."​

I guess you missed this:



The Parole Board is "appointed by the Governor" and he had a lot of discretion in granting clemency/pardon...not restrained by anything other than his “conscience, wisdom and sense of public duty.” Further, the New Mexico Parole Board which has the authority to, at the request of the Governor, accept, investigate, and make recommendations on pardon applications."

The question becomes, DID HE REQUEST THIS? (and since the Parole Board are his appointees and works under his orders, are you suggesting that he could not have ordered a fast track?)



First, I keep talking about victimeless crimes, you keep talking about one section of that population. Regardless, you are being obtuse here. The national avg is ~40% and most reasonable people can extrapolate for discussion purposes.



BS, I have never claimed to know everything about this and have proposed solutions.

I also condemn GJ for not denouncing his team for the strategy of attacking Paul and his supporters to grow their base, (using spin and insult like you display here, on Ron Paul forums.)

Finally, these are all examples leading to my base reason for not supporting him. He is a cold, calculating, ego driven man who uses heartless cost/benefit analysis tactics to reach his goals. The fact that his tactics allowed more people to be caged for victimless crimes is merely a vivid example.

He is a mountain climber, not a libertarian. And his "principles" leave much to be desired...

Not trying to interrupt the debate here but I asked a question that was fairly relevant to the video posted, at the very end for a split second it says "Obamney is the bomb" or something to that extent. Any reason why this was added to the ad? Seems a little unprofessional to me especially when trying to broaden the base, regardless of the massive polarization of politics today.

 

[Cody1]

Nobody? Guess it's not that important. Oh well.

 

[mczerone]

So go find a former governor running for president that did pardon all non-violent convicts, that has perfect libertarian bona fides, and will be on all 50 state ballots.

I admit that GJ isn't perfect. Ron Paul wasn't "perfect" either. But as far as I can tell, RP won't be on the ballot in the general election for president, so GJ isn't "opposing" him for anything.

 

[BSU kid]

Gary Johnson makes terrible ads, they look cheap and tacky. I get he has no money, but wow.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

So now GJ can control all areas of law enforcement? Sorry, but I don't think your witch hunt holds water. PA and other states have directed law enforcement to not focus on small drug offenses, yet their prisons are still full of non-violent drug offenders. And you're citing blogs now? Come on.

I'm well aware the governor appoints the parole board, but where do you get the idea the power to appoint means 15 members will carry out GJs will?

The issue here is you make assumptions to connect the dots. Gary can appoint, therefore the board will do as he dictates. Gary can request law enforcement move focus, therefore those convicted of non-violent drug offenses will be reduced. It doesn't work that way. You imagine scenarios and use those scenarios to back your opinion. You're basically saying, "He should have done this, and if he did, it would have worked and everything would be fine." How can you say that, even in hindsight, with nothing to back it up? I just don't get it.

So....

1.) Show me one non-violent drug offender that applied for a pardon who was denied by GJ.

We'll go from there. Also feel free to post your solutions.

Spin and insult my behind. I'm asking you to provide actual data to support your argument, but you haven't done so.

I never stated an opinion like you ascribe to me, and you are doing this same sort of spin with each reply. Putting words in my mouth.

Further, I have rasied "possible" solutions other than building more cages. The reason the prisons were overcrowded is the increased prosecution of victimless crimes. Keep in mind that the justice apparatus falls under the purview of the executive, not the legislature. I can think of possible solutions without building more cages. Also, note that the court order to reduce overcrowding was decades old before Gary got there, so he had all the time in the world to address the root cause of overcrowding, instead he subsidized prison corporations. Couldn't he have instructed his justice dept to stop prosecuting victimless crimes? other executives do that.

And your claim that no prisoners applied is meaningless, unless he had used his bully pulpit and executive powers to make sure all prisoners knew of his plan to reduce overcrowding by pardoning those in jail for victimless crimes.

And are you really going to assert that it would take more time/money to process pardon applications than it did to build more prisons?



I can't find any evidence that he pardoned ANY drug offenders? Disingenous much? Here is a snippet from another of his supporters:

"because he ... did not pardon drug offenders during his two terms as New Mexico's Governor."​

I guess you missed this:



The Parole Board is "appointed by the Governor" and he had a lot of discretion in granting clemency/pardon...not restrained by anything other than his “conscience, wisdom and sense of public duty.” Further, the New Mexico Parole Board which has the authority to, at the request of the Governor, accept, investigate, and make recommendations on pardon applications."

The question becomes, DID HE REQUEST THIS? (and since the Parole Board are his appointees and works under his orders, are you suggesting that he could not have ordered a fast track?)



First, I keep talking about victimeless crimes, you keep talking about one section of that population. Regardless, you are being obtuse here. The national avg is ~40% and most reasonable people can extrapolate for discussion purposes.



BS, I have never claimed to know everything about this and have proposed solutions.

I also condemn GJ for not denouncing his team for the strategy of attacking Paul and his supporters to grow their base, (using spin and insult like you display here, on Ron Paul forums.)

Finally, these are all examples leading to my base reason for not supporting him. He is a cold, calculating, ego driven man who uses heartless cost/benefit analysis tactics to reach his goals. The fact that his tactics allowed more people to be caged for victimless crimes is merely a vivid example.

He is a mountain climber, not a libertarian. And his "principles" leave much to be desired...

 

[rockandrollsouls]

If he was such a statist, backed by the establishment, and such a trojan horse you'd think his "masters" would have put a little more effort into making him a force...

Gary Johnson makes terrible ads, they look cheap and tacky. I get he has no money, but wow.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

@ronpaulhawaii http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v7a-YvPJ2c

Yea, GJ did absolutely nothing. Just kept quiet, didn't make any announcement, etc etc. All sarcasm if you didn't catch that

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you didn't actually research what GJ did or has done regarding this issue, simply saw that he built private prisons, and went on the attack.

 

[rockandrollsouls]

@RonPaulHawaii http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02.n1047.a07.html

Want to lie some more and say GJ didn't pardon non-violent drug offenders as governor?