Vets have broken down barricades at Lincoln Memorial and are carrying them to the White House

[better-dead-than-fed]

The Tea Party types tend to be Christian and only worship God.

Damn straight. Their the only ones that shouldn't get a good beat down by the L.E.O.s. for breaking laws. Arghhh, 'Murica!

 

[Carlybee]

Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

I don't bash veterans. Most of them have seen enough of the true horrors of war to know exactly why we need better foreign policy...at least those who will stand up and protest. If the SHTF, they may be the only thing between you and the militarized police. I don't consider that military worship. I think you might be surprised how many veterans are anti-war....maybe not necessarily old WWII vets but the younger ones. My uncle was a WWII vet and he was a POW held captive in the Phillipines. He never talked about the war after he came home. Not everyone is John McCain.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

They were blocking the sidewalk.

Maybe you've never been to a flea market?

 

[Uriel999]

Interesting that brutally murdered and assaulted mundanes don't rile folks up, but closing a few memorials is the end of the world. But like you say, whatever it takes to get Boobus motivated.

Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

I was going to tear into you....but then I saw you stated you are 18. I will give you time to grow up. However, I want you to remember, while you where trying to socially adjust in middle school and again in high school those of us "thugs" were donating and voting for Ron Paul. But hey, it's cool you must know everything...after all you are an "adult."

 

[Christian Liberty]

I might be too cynical, but I honestly don't see how seeing civil disobedience solely mmotivated by a desire to worship America and the hired killers who did wickedness in its name is really "encouraging." I'm very, very glad that Ron isn't here participating in the worship of State that's going on. I'd actually be disappointed in him if he did show up.

Patriotic Populism IS NOT libertarianism, and it never will be. The Tea Party as a group is not libertarianism either.

Mind you, I can definitely tell the difference between those of you who simply like seeing civil disobedience in general (HB, AF, and some others) and those who actually do subscribe to the kind of America-worshipping nonsense that's being displayed here, but I honestly see nothing to like here. Boobus is upset, not because our government is oppressive and wicked and because of the wickedness it does, but because the biggest perpetrators of the wickedness are not being given sufficient respect.

Mind you, I get that different people in the liberty movement, fully principled, are going to deal with this kind of stuff in different ways. Laurence Vance and Tom Dilorenzo pretty much flat out said what I said, in different terms. Ron Paul probably won't go there, he's more soft-spoken and I respect that. Even still, I think the excitement over all of this crap just shows how doomed we are. That sheep are disgusted because the State is not being given its worship is a sign of our DOOM, not of any kind of awakening.

 

[Slutter McGee]

I have one of those, it's a Texas thing

I do also. And screw all you northern idiots who dont understand.

Slutter McGee

 

[AuH20]

Pretty much. The military worship is sickening. I honestly wouldn't have anything to do with this. I hate the government more than they do, ALL of it. Why would I protect ex-government thugs against the current ones? Do you think they have any real principled opposition to statism? The vast majority of them probably not And I'm not condemning minarchists or constitutionalists with that statement, I'm condemning the vast majority of America that proudly waves their flags, support their troops and the Republican Party.

So the barricades were broken doown at the Lincoln Memorial. Statists can now worship at their shrine. Am I supposed to give a crap?

Laurence Vance explains my thoughts:

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/i-think-id-rather-sit-down/

Mind you, I am absolutely opposed to any police brutality against anyone. I find it absolutely repulsive, and you know that. But I want nothing to do with any kind of a movement that is based around "How dare they slight 'our vets' [Read: Hired ex-killers or supporters of the same] or 'How dare they prevent us from gazing on our shrines where we worship America' rather than a real opposition to government, or at least big oppressive government, as such.

Do you guys get what I'm trying to say here?

Give me a break. So you don't like community, I take it? There is good and bad in the armed forces.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I was going to tear into you....but then I saw you stated you are 18. I will give you time to grow up. However, I want you to remember, while you where trying to socially adjust in middle school and again in high school those of us "thugs" were donating and voting for Ron Paul. But hey, it's cool you must know everything...after all you are an "adult."

HB isn't 18, and there are plenty of people here who feel the same way as I do about the military.

I respect that there are many members of the military who support Ron Paul and oppose unjust wars, but opposing wickedness in the legal sense is no excuse for doing it under orders. Just like wanting to change a bad law is no excuse for enforcing it.

Go ahead and "Tear into me". I can take it. And I'll throw the fact that you're still a member of a murderous organization right back at you. What, are you going to try to tell me that you're fighting for our freedoms too? That if it weren't for "brave" men like you, we'd all be speaking German? Give me a break.

This thread is showing me that there really isn't such thing as a "liberty movement". I get that there's always going to be some mercy given when politicians like Rand Paul make stupid pro-America comments to break through to Boobus. I get that there is always going to be some degree of support for ANY kind of civil disobedience, even if as a Biblical Christian I find the implicit statism here to be disgusting. But the fact that most people here are no suddenly supporting the ex-killers?

You guys haven't read enough Vance

 

[Christian Liberty]

Give me a break. So you don't like community, I take it? There is good and bad in the armed forces.

What on earth do they do that's good? I hear this claim about cops too, and honestly, I don't see any real evidence of it. At worst we have some who do evil and some who are lucky enough to get away with only taking morally neutral actions. Are they really doing anything "good" or "heroic"? And even if they did, it would still be a wicked organization. To save 10 innocent lives and kill one innocent person is still murder.

I know that the beltway type people are going to disagree with me here. Honestly, I'd probably still support you guys if you were poliicians, the same way I support (Rand) Paul, Amash, Massie, etc. I expect politicians to take logically contradictory positions sometimes. I find it frustrating here.

I'm curious what my fellow radicals and ancaps (whether you use that term or not, are just a radical minarchist, whatever) think of what I said. Specifically, I'd love to see HB or AF expound on why this is actually useful in the light of what I said.

 

[AuH20]

What on earth do they do that's good? I hear this claim about cops too, and honestly, I don't see any real evidence of it. At worst we have some who do evil and some who are lucky enough to get away with only taking morally neutral actions. Are they really doing anything "good" or "heroic"? And even if they did, it would still be a wicked organization. To save 10 innocent lives and kill one innocent person is still murder.

I know that the beltway type people are going to disagree with me here. Honestly, I'd probably still support you guys if you were poliicians, the same way I support (Rand) Paul, Amash, Massie, etc. I expect politicians to take logically contradictory positions sometimes. I find it frustrating here.

I'm curious what my fellow radicals and ancaps (whether you use that term or not, are just a radical minarchist, whatever) think of what I said. Specifically, I'd love to see HB or AF expound on why this is actually useful in the light of what I said.

You're implying that everyone that has worn the uniform has been ordered to recreate the Malai Massacre. I don't worship anyone with stripes on their arm, but I thought the hysterical 'baby killer' meme died in the 1960s.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't bash veterans. Most of them have seen enough of the true horrors of war to know exactly why we need better foreign policy...at least those who will stand up and protest. If the SHTF, they may be the only thing between you and the militarized police. I don't consider that military worship. I think you might be surprised how many veterans are anti-war....maybe not necessarily old WWII vets but the younger ones. My uncle was a WWII vet and he was a POW held captive in the Phillipines. He never talked about the war after he came home. Not everyone is John McCain.

I'm not saying we have to "Bash" them either. To clarify, my opinions on the military are similar to that of Laurence Vance, not the Westboro Baptist Church, if you know what I'm saying.

You are very right that veterans may well stand between us and the militized police, and I agree that that's not military worship. (If I accused you or Cajun of being military worshippers, I would seriously, seriously reconsider my definition.)

This isn't really so much about the veterans themselves for me as it is the people who blindly accept virtually any government tyranny, but slight the veterans and wow they're ticked. Those people are just state-worshippers and statist worshippers, bottom line. If someone is completely OK with the War In Iraq, Obamacare, the Fed, gun control, etc. but he's offended that the altars to the Golden Calf of the US military are shut down, yeah, he's a state-worshipper. I seriously doubt you'd disagree with that.

I am not saying that the people here (or at least the ones who apply) who are against government nonsense in general, including this, are state-worshippers. In fact, by that definition, I myself would be a state worshipper, since I find it absolutely stupid that they're shutting the memorials down. I just also find it stupid that people care so much about this. They care more about honoring those who went overseas to murder than they are the fact that the murder is happening and that our money is being stolen to pay for it.

I know I'm rambling here... I just have so many thoughts going through my head. The TLDR is that its not so much about bashing the veterans themselves, though I do have a problem with what they do overseas, as it is with the people who absolutely adore them and worship them, and America in general.

(Note: despite the use of religion, this is a political analogy, please take it as such)

I guess I kind of view the US Government as being like the Catholic Church, before the Reformation. Say that a group of people broke off from the corrupt Church and started a religion that taught that works alone save and that Jesus is not God. Now, as a Baptist, I completely disagree with Catholic doctrine, and do not view it as the same religion I believe in in any sense. I'm opposed to it. Yet, I wouldn't support this breakaway group either. They are actually FURTHER from what I believe in than the Catholic Church to begin with.

The US Government is completely out of control, and is filled with people that worship it. People are rejecting it because it doesn't allow them to worship it as much as they'd like. So, while I completely oppose the US government, this civil disobedience is going in the COMPLETE OPPOSITE DIRECTION that we need to go.

As for the comparisons to 1776, the Founders didn't worship the Redcoats or want to see tyranny from a different political party. I cannot imagine 1776 happening today, necessary though it may be. And I wouldn't support just any revolution if it wasn't based around anything close to my beliefs and values.

 

[fr33]

I'm curious what my fellow radicals and ancaps (whether you use that term or not, are just a radical minarchist, whatever) think of what I said. Specifically, I'd love to see HB or AF expound on why this is actually useful in the light of what I said.

I'm sympathetic to hating on military in it's current form but I think you're petty, ignorant, and myopic. People don't change deeply held beliefs overnight. These folks are standing up to current tyranny while praising past tyranny. You and I have never lived in a free society and the fact that we are alive today is proof that we used and took part in tyranny to our advantage. Cast those stones all that you want but I guarantee you take part in the same system on a daily basis when you rely on the food you eat and the electricity you use.

You were conveniently not present here to condemn Ron Paul when he bragged about getting more donations from active duty soldiers. Learn how to pick your battles more wisely.

 

[Christian Liberty]

You're implying that everyone that has worn the uniform has been ordered to recreate the Malai Massacre. I don't worship anyone with stripes on their arm, but I thought the hysterical 'baby killer' meme died in the 1960s.

I don't believe in going around and calling them that either.

First of all, I'm not saying every person in the military kills people. What I am saying is that ultimately they all MIGHT be ordered to do so. And its not just "Civilians." If you were to kill Iraqi soldiers or Afghan soldiers who are defending their country, even if they are trying to kill American soldiers who are occupying their country, that's murder. Calculated "Collateral damage" is murder. Serving as a chaplain in the military is an implict support for it because you can't oppose it. Serving as a medic in a combat zone overseas is supporting aggression. Do you get where I'm going with this?

Second of all, I recognize where I am. I'm talking to people who should know what liberty and the liberty movement are. I'm not condoning going up to every vet and shouting "baby killer."

However, NONE of them are "heroes". None of them "Fought for our freedom." At best, they bolstered the wicked concept of a "standing army." At worst, they went overseas and killed people, or provided support for the same.

I'm not really accusing YOU of being a military worshipper. I'm accusing the people that are absolutely mortified that the memorials (Essentially altars to statism) are being shut down, yet don't mind in the slightest what the military actually does, or any of the other big government in this country, are worshipping the State.

 

[AFPVet]

I don't bash veterans. Most of them have seen enough of the true horrors of war to know exactly why we need better foreign policy...at least those who will stand up and protest. If the SHTF, they may be the only thing between you and the militarized police. I don't consider that military worship. I think you might be surprised how many veterans are anti-war....maybe not necessarily old WWII vets but the younger ones. My uncle was a WWII vet and he was a POW held captive in the Phillipines. He never talked about the war after he came home. Not everyone is John McCain.

I may not be a 'combat vet', but I was a military police SRT team leader (USAF Security Forces)... and definitely anti-war, anti-big government, and pro liberty!

 

[Carlybee]

I'm not saying we have to "Bash" them either. To clarify, my opinions on the military are similar to that of Laurence Vance, not the Westboro Baptist Church, if you know what I'm saying.

You are very right that veterans may well stand between us and the militized police, and I agree that that's not military worship. (If I accused you or Cajun of being military worshippers, I would seriously, seriously reconsider my definition.)

This isn't really so much about the veterans themselves for me as it is the people who blindly accept virtually any government tyranny, but slight the veterans and wow they're ticked. Those people are just state-worshippers and statist worshippers, bottom line. If someone is completely OK with the War In Iraq, Obamacare, the Fed, gun control, etc. but he's offended that the altars to the Golden Calf of the US military are shut down, yeah, he's a state-worshipper. I seriously doubt you'd disagree with that.

I am not saying that the people here (or at least the ones who apply) who are against government nonsense in general, including this, are state-worshippers. In fact, by that definition, I myself would be a state worshipper, since I find it absolutely stupid that they're shutting the memorials down. I just also find it stupid that people care so much about this. They care more about honoring those who went overseas to murder than they are the fact that the murder is happening and that our money is being stolen to pay for it.

I know I'm rambling here... I just have so many thoughts going through my head. The TLDR is that its not so much about bashing the veterans themselves, though I do have a problem with what they do overseas, as it is with the people who absolutely adore them and worship them, and America in general.

(Note: despite the use of religion, this is a political analogy, please take it as such)

I guess I kind of view the US Government as being like the Catholic Church, before the Reformation. Say that a group of people broke off from the corrupt Church and started a religion that taught that works alone save and that Jesus is not God. Now, as a Baptist, I completely disagree with Catholic doctrine, and do not view it as the same religion I believe in in any sense. I'm opposed to it. Yet, I wouldn't support this breakaway group either. They are actually FURTHER from what I believe in than the Catholic Church to begin with.

The US Government is completely out of control, and is filled with people that worship it. People are rejecting it because it doesn't allow them to worship it as much as they'd like. So, while I completely oppose the US government, this civil disobedience is going in the COMPLETE OPPOSITE DIRECTION that we need to go.

As for the comparisons to 1776, the Founders didn't worship the Redcoats or want to see tyranny from a different political party. I cannot imagine 1776 happening today, necessary though it may be. And I wouldn't support just any revolution if it wasn't based around anything close to my beliefs and values.

Back when a lot of these people went overseas to fight, it WAS considered an honorable thing to do..at least prior to Vietnam. And that was before our foreign policy became a big business run by War, Inc. I think those kids who signed up...and many of them were...my uncle enlisted at 17 and lied about his age, felt they were protecting their country. As for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..I don't think they sign up thinking it's going to be what it turns out to be...not everyone is enlightened by libertarian philosophy. Now the ones who join Blackwater or whatever is another story. I do think people are becoming more enlightened, but I think there are going to always be people who make the military a career for whatever reason. I don't think I can go so far as to call them hired killers and I think what the military does to many of them is criminal, but I think the way they are treated when they return is even worse. For every gung-ho kill em all let God sort em out guy...there are probably numerous ones walking around in a daze, absolutely damaged and wishing they had never gone. Until we get through to people that war sucks and that our foreign policy is wack I will neither worship nor indict those who serve.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I'm sympathetic to hating on military in it's current form but I think you're petty, ignorant, and myopic. People don't change deeply held beliefs overnight. These folks are standing up to current tyranny while praising past tyranny. You and I have never lived in a free society and the fact that we are alive today is proof that we used and took part in tyranny to our advantage. Cast those stones all that you want but I guarantee you take part in the same system on a daily basis when you rely on the food you eat and the electricity you use.

There's nothing inherently even wrong with "Using tyranny to your advantage." It depends on what you did.

See here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-e-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/

You were conveniently not present here to condemn Ron Paul when he bragged about getting more donations from active duty soldiers. Learn how to pick your battles more wisely.

I've heard the comment, and I have no issue with it. They aren't the same situation.

Ron Paul was pointing out, correctly, that the soldiers themselves are not nearly as supportive of putting the rest of the world under occupation and waging war everywhere as the chickenhawks are. I post the "You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy" video all the time, despite objecting to the first five seconds of it. I agree that for Ron Paul to bash the military would likely have been stupid. He was running for Commander in Chief. And he ran on a platform of implementing almost completely 100% pure libertarianism eventually.

This is very different than what Ron Paul said. This is about Boobus exercizing "Civil disobedience" because government is insufficiently cooperative with worship of America. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with legitimate opposition to "Tyranny" for most of these people. Would someone who legitimately held a deep seated opposition to tyranny really want to fawn over the memorials anyways?

Different issues.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Back when a lot of these people went overseas to fight, it WAS considered an honorable thing to do..at least prior to Vietnam. And that was before our foreign policy became a big business run by War, Inc. I think those kids who signed up...and many of them were...my uncle enlisted at 17 and lied about his age, felt they were protecting their country. As for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc..I don't think they sign up thinking it's going to be what it turns out to be...not everyone is enlightened by libertarian philosophy. Now the ones who join Blackwater or whatever is another story. I do think people are becoming more enlightened, but I think there are going to always be people who make the military a career for whatever reason. I don't think I can go so far as to call them hired killers and I think what the military does to many of them is criminal, but I think the way they are treated when they return is even worse. For every gung-ho kill em all let God sort em out guy...there are probably numerous ones walking around in a daze, absolutely damaged and wishing they had never gone. Until we get through to people that war sucks and that our foreign policy is wack I will neither worship nor indict those who serve.

OK:

1. The last war that America has been in that I think was in any sense justified was 1812. I don't defend either World War. So I don't think there's a person living today who TRULY fought in an "honorable" war. Ultimately, justifying what happened in WWII comes down to utilitarianism and preemption. America murdered a LOT of people in that war, far more than were killed in Iraq. Even if you view the German and Japanese Military as legitimate targets because Japan attacked us after we provokd them, the killing of civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagisaki, etc. is no better than murder.

2. Since when has the military been treated horribly when they've returned? For every person like me there are a thousand who will call them "heroes" and say they "fought for our freedom."

3. I'm not saying you have to condemn them, although I do, I don't believe ignorance or wicked philosophy is an excuse (I really don't expect any better out of unbelievers, but I find the fact that CHRISTIANS support this kind of stuff absolutely disgusting.) I think its possible not to condemn them while still thinking its ridiculous to pretend like people getting ticked off that their precious memorials are blocked off has anything to do with real liberty.

4. We're never going to "Get through to people." Most people are immoral and don't care. Most people have a wicked worldview. And if we did get through to them, and by "we" I mean the real liberty movement, not the phony "small government but law and order" types, would they join at all? Or do you mean something more like "Had the liberty philosophy presented to them?"

 

[Christian Liberty]

I may not be a 'combat vet', but I was a military police SRT team leader (USAF Security Forces)... and definitely anti-war, anti-big government, and pro liberty!​

Do you think that people who are ticked off because they aren't able to genuflect before their memorial of choice are actually pro-liberty just because they're disobeying this particular order?

 

[enhanced_deficit]

They should be careful out there and not bump into DC Police.. after what happened to Miriam Carey last week.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]